Micro 955: Variant Nomination Mafia (Game Over)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

can I look at your case on why Koba is scum? I'd like just the brief summary thanks.

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: The case, for the most part

Here's the interaction I was thinking of:

hellbrooks: they've been lurky in the shadows and suddenly came out to hammer the vote on me which I find scum asf. imma be real I have a suspicion that they're teamed with raya for the move they did there.

i've been

moving

...... also i

didnt

hammer... jeez....
this sucks!!!

include a third I reskimmed quickly and made my choice that way.

why so cavalier about it

raya
dunn
dkkoba
(t -> s)

like fr I think hellbooks hammering me with little explaination was fairly scummy and they seemed detached and just sheeping the wagon that had most votes and people need to see that

i didnt hammer you

I loathe moving but am grateful for it when it's done with.

yeah i'm tired af, thanks

ok so any reason you think this is town raya? because I'm not buying this casing.

it might not be a good read but it circumstantially can definitely come from town in fact one might say (I might say) that it has higher town equity

and I demand an explaination because at this point it feels like there's setup going on here where you force a nomination on me but also offer shade on other slots to set them up as MLs.

i have no explanation other than gut

I'm also pretty curious why DkKoba didn't nominate me but I wasn't going to ask since I'm already pretty self-absorbed.

this is mediumly scummy

dkkoba does seem to care a lot about like, getting it right
hm

Why are you acting like Post 185 is the response to the following:

What do you think Hellbrooks needs to provide to give you more confidence in reading their slot?

Revealing that would allow them to mimic it

I'm not asking you what they'd have to write verbatim
But instead more generally trying to get you to provide me with the sort of info/responses you're hoping to get from them.

Like, would getting Hellbrook's reads help?
Would hellbrooks commenting on any specific part of the game help?
I want to know what would help you more confidently read Hellbrooks
Because as it stands, I'm not all too happy with you having nominated someone you're not even pushing engagement with (despite the vote) but state what feels like a sort of unsure read of.

I think I'd rather wait for hellbooks to actually post themselves before I make any comments about that at the moment (:

I'm just not following your logic on hellbooks here and it doesn't seem like you're actually driving engagement with the slot.
Moreover, it actually seems like

you're the one actively going after low-hanging fruit

with a player that was universally seen as likely-not-town, put in a TvS dichotomy with me by Yukino's flawed confirmation-spec that more than one other player agreed was at least a 'townie' perspective to have; the same Hellbooks who has been moving and ergo can't respond as much as any other player--the same Hellbooks that would be easy to push given all of these things. It's really not helping me very much when your response to their posts is to rhetorically cross your arms with "I'm going to need something better on your read on me" which seems like such a self-conscious move to make when you're not even asking any questions to them. Your engagement with the slot has ENTIRELY been claiming what they're doing is scummy (pushing you, amirite?) and quoting some of their posts by saying the progression doesn't make sense. You never explain why. And then when I'm critical of why you're not doing more, you've offered up, in post 182 with "I haven't had time to figure out how to case my push on her. I do find their post flimsy." Flimsy how? Articulate yourself.

The reason this gives me even more cause for concern regarding your slot is that you're

very

self conscious. Here's my notes on what informed a scumread on you that I'd played close to my chest pre-nomination:
Page 2 reads way too self-conscious coming out of how seriously town is discussing holding people accountable.
Their response to me also sucks and, again, is way too self-conscious.
Asks Yukino for more but lets hellbrooks slide on the same page (pg3)
The second that I mention I'd vote you over the other nominees, all of a sudden I'm "Open Scumming"? The second I start to give you more pressure and engage with your slot, you run off with "Needing to go to sleep" before "You say something too mean"? What do I care if you say something mean to me? If I was scum, I'd be worried that you'd say something to

catch

me. I'm going to characterize this as an alignment slip on your part because you realize the intent of reaction to me would be

harmful

rather than

inquisitive

. It throws me for a real loop how flighty you are and how quick you can be to find people who townread you as those you see as town--that's behavior I expect from scum or from inexperienced players who aren't being critical of the actual game state. The amount of projection you've immediately put on my slot while characterizing yourself as some victim/Low-Hanging Fruit is the sort of self-preservationist defensive play that I expect from only one of the three following types:
1. Newbtown who thinks their survival is important in a game and can't handle pressure at all.
2. Scum who are caught early and sweating hard because a D1 scumlynch is pretty much doom for their team.
3. Someone with a Power Role who doesn't want to be outted so early and is responding poorly to pressure given the fact they don't want to out how important their survival is to the balance of the game.
Given this is a mountainous, I'm forced to reconcile that you're either the first or second option here.
If you're the first, then you're a liability for us to take forward in the game. You're always going to be daggers-drawn on anyone who suspects you and it'll misinform your reads as you're sorely misinformed about me being scum. I know this because I know my alignment and had to mod-confirm it to play the game.
If you're the second, you need to be buried ASAP anyway.
So, from my perspective, in the pool of nominees, you're the one who has to go.

VOTE: Dkkoba

hellbooks I'm going to need something better on your read on me because at this point you've given a bunch of non-contribution in terms of your "reads" other than perhaps your analysis of a few of the posts you listed but even those feel low effort.

and no, I haven't even gotten a response. Are you even reading this game?

This isn't a question, for the record.
This is "PLAY BETTER"
Which is nebulous and doesn't offer anything at all for the player to

actually act on

.
I'm also not a fan of how you block 'reads' off with quotes like that--if you've got issues with Hellbooks' reads, then engage there and ask what is informing them. Mudslinging isn't helping you understand the slot; you're just dragging it.
The same way you immediately shifted tactics to dragging my slot when literally all I said was that I'd vote you before the other nominees.
Curious, that.

I don't read Koba's engagement as genuine towards creating any sort of worthwhile momentum.
I've consistently urged them to do so and their resistance to it has happened over and over again.

Should also be noted that Dkkoba is pushing a narrative that I am scum based on the following progression:

Our town either sucks ass or scum's just playing real overtly. Rough stuff.
I'd vote DKkoba, Raya, then Hellbooks--in that order, right now.

To which they respond:

Oh nice shade varsoon! you mind backing that up?

Now, this is pretty self-absorbed. They could ask why I have more reads confidence on Hellbooks or even Dunnstral--you know, those other people they nominated?! I find it especially curious they're not pushing me at all over Raya, given I said much earlier I felt Scum was between DKkoba and Raya. Anyway, this quickly turns to...

this kind of push you're driving on me is starting to sell me on scum!varsoon.

eliminating strong town voices is not pro town no matter how you want to frame it. i dont care if it gives you information, I'm not going to let it happen.

(This is kind of funny, they characterize themselves as a 'Strong Town Voice' here, but then later call themselves LHF/Low-Hanging-Fruit.)


Nevermind this post:

I'll make it even clearer:
I'm of the mind there's at least one scum between DkKoba and Raya, given their play and positioning so far.

To which their immediate response was to go "after this varsoon I don't exactly trust you (: you're making reads in bad faith. either you are playing bad or are scum. I'll take the nomination but you're coming with me."
Curious how they took the nomination and I didn't come with them. It's almost like their reads are wholly inconsistent and reliant solely on who is pushing them at any given time.
Hmmmm, why would town play that way, I wonder?

For a fun time in seeing how DkKoba handles pressure poorly, ISO them and search out 'Shade' and 'Shading'.
That's how they've developed their reads.
It's all reactionary.
That's not engagement.
And it's not consistent.
I have a really hard time believing this as coming from town.

It's consistent in that DkKoba's reads consistently are compromised by a need to heavily scumread anyone that 'shades' their slot.
It's inconsistent in that their engagement with those players otherwise and the logic they're laying down isn't reflective of the read they actually have.

TL;DR: DkKoba was really inconsistent with their engagement and logic, very reactionary, very self-preserving, and their biggest scumread at any given time was whatever player was pressuring them the hardest.

---

Nested spoiler tags removed.

[Varsoon]

@MOD: Can you fix the busted spoiller= tag in there?

Sorry about that.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so basically your entire case on koba boils down to them playing like an asshole?

[Raya36]

We're closing in on only 48 hours left.
I expect everyone's next posts to include a vote for the slot they think is most likely to flip scum.
Some explanation of the vote should be included.
I'm still not sold on the DkKoba slot and the replace in hasn't done anything to build confidence there despite being given time to do so.
The response of the game having weird "flow" when there's plenty of engagement before and after the Execution phase strikes me as not trying to take any hard stances while refusing to really play catchup since the slot's current position is one that's not being pushed anymore.
I'm still about 70% confidence on this, but it's better than shooting in the dark:
VOTE: PookyTheMagicalBear

If it flips town, though, I'm going to be fairly critical of Raya (for pumping the breaks on this wagon at awkward times, among other things) and Dunnstral (for coasting out when it seemed like focus was much more on DkKoba but doing nothing to help push what he may've known to be a townflip).

Honestly Pooky is acting how I kind of expect. I'd still much rather go for Dunn or Hellbooks, leaning Hellbooks, but sus of how quiet Dunn has been

[Varsoon]

so basically your entire case on koba boils down to them playing like an asshole?

No,
Please actually read it.
But if that's your take-away, I don't know that I'm going to convince you otherwise.
'cus at that point, couldn't you just characterize ALL scum play as 'asshole' play?

[Varsoon]

@Raya: I expect them to come into the game, actually read the scant 14 pages we have, and lay down some reads and give some direction.
They've kinda just been there and it feels just as coasting as Dunn.
But at least they're engaging with me right now and for more than one post at a time which is more than I could say for Dunn.

[Raya36]

To add to my Dunn read I find him not pushing for a lynch to be town indicative honestly. I don't like the coasting but he said he doesnt scumread koba and we should lynch between me and Hell. Later says he doesnt feel good about a hell lynch. Biggest suspects are outside of the pool. He's not playing survivalistic at all and doesnt appear to be concerned about being lynched. So unless this is some sort of LAMIST play he's probably town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so basically your entire case on koba boils down to them playing like an asshole?

No,
Please actually read it.
But if that's your take-away, I don't know that I'm going to convince you otherwise.
'cus at that point, couldn't you just characterize ALL scum play as 'asshole' play?

I'm characterizing it based on your own summary that you put at the bottom

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I'd be really uncomfortable with a Dunn lynch right now.
I'm much more interested in parsing Nash and Yukino, who have felt really absent in ways that I'm not happy with but I didn't really have glowing reads of them before Execution phase.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

'cus at that point, couldn't you just characterize ALL scum play as 'asshole' play?

Actually in my experience scum tend to be more manipulative and cunning.

People who fly off the rails and go heavy on the OMGUS spam posting usually are town who are upset they are being misread.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't know that I'm going to convince you otherwise

Are you trying to convince me Koba is scum? I mean you know I have a role pm from the mod that says otherwise right?

[Raya36]

@Raya: I expect them to come into the game, actually read the scant 14 pages we have, and lay down some reads and give some direction.
They've kinda just been there and it feels just as coasting as Dunn.
But at least they're engaging with me right now and for more than one post at a time which is more than I could say for Dunn.

Are you speaking about expectations for replacements in general or for specifically Pooky?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

well I usually don't re-read until I get a good feel for everyone through interactions because I hate re-reading in general

[Varsoon]

@Pooky: Pardon me if I have to take that defense with more than a pinch of salt given you're defending your own slot with that logic, too.
But I've definitely been on both sides of it--I've pushed scum that tried to rely on faking a town off-the-rails blowup and I've doubled down before on town that scummily death-tunneled me in return.
So I've seen how that sort of entrenchment can both win and ruin games, as town.
Which is why I'm hoping to distance from it best I can but ugh
You're not doing much to help me with that.
When I write 'convince you otherwise', I mean convince you that I'm convinced your slot is a scum slot. You're acting like I don't believe it. I do.
Regardless, you're not even the person I need to convince.
And also, there's no way you

know

that I have a role PM from the mod that says you're town, because there's no scenario where you'd know that unless we were both scum together.

@Raya: In general. But maybe the replacement meta for D1 has changed since I last played?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Oh well you'd need a stronger case than "Koba plays like an asshole" for me to be convinced that you really believe I'm scum and should be lynched.

[hellbooks]

PTMB seems towny on top of DkKoba
dunn's still a pile of null

What's disingenuous about it. That's a way scum could play and you're doing it.

"town has hard stances and scum doesn't" not a good way to think about it

I don't consider the koba slot or me an option from my POV. Its between you and Dunn.

i know dw about it i was townreading u for it

I'm still about 70% confidence on this, but it's better than shooting in the dark:

this means you think there's a 70 percent chance pooky flip scum???

To add to my Dunn read I find him not pushing for a lynch to be town indicative honestly. I don't like the coasting but he said he doesnt scumread koba and we should lynch between me and Hell. Later says he doesnt feel good about a hell lynch. Biggest suspects are outside of the pool. He's not playing survivalistic at all and doesnt appear to be concerned about being lynched. So unless this is some sort of LAMIST play he's probably town.

sure-- that checks out
VOTE: raya

[hellbooks]

its like hilarious how i'd vote any of the three non nominations over any of the nominations

[hellbooks]

not that my reads are ever that great but

[hellbooks]

hm now that i think about it, dkkoba put like very little thought into the nom process right
like they nomed me because they thought i hammered the nominator vote which was just incorrect and could be figured out at a moment's notice that it was incorrect (as opposed to nash, a serial lurker & hammerer)
like why is town so cavalier with that

[hellbooks]

UNVOTE:

[Varsoon]

Oh well you'd need a stronger case than "Koba plays like an asshole" for me to be convinced that you really believe I'm scum and should be lynched.

Yeah, maybe read my case and don't literally twist my TL;DR into something I didn't write.
Perfectly fine with my vote staying on you.

[Varsoon]

this means you think there's a 70 percent chance pooky flip scum???

At 80% as of now.
That's reads-confidence, though. Like I'm 80% sure of a scum flip there.
The reality is that there's either 100% or 0%, though.
Or, I guess, even more realistically, 33.33%?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

TL;DR: DkKoba was really inconsistent with their engagement and logic, very reactionary, very self-preserving, and their biggest scumread at any given time was whatever player was pressuring them the hardest.

this is your own summary dude

[Varsoon]

CTRL+F 'Asshole'
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