Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm almost done with my wallpost. The short version is that I know I'm town, so I know that his perspective's matching mine WRT Blopp and Raya means he's likely got a townie starting point with his read to the game. I know that's not useful to you, but I'm also going to advocate you eliminate my slot, at which point you should see that 72o's obvtown. He didn't just sheep me either, he gave independent original thoughts that shared my perspective of the game.

No, screw you for asking to get voted off the island.

[LuckyLuciano]

I am going to give my thoughts and bounce. Let's start with the bomb I have to drop. I retract my TPR claim. I'm going to wager that my slot ends up getting eliminated today, so go ahead and do it before the replacement comes in and has to unfairly defend a fake claim they didn't make. After miskicking my slot town is down to 5v2, so they have 1 more free miskick before having to eliminate 2 mafia in order to win. My goal here is to give an elimination pool of 3 players, and hopefully get both scum correct so that town can just sheep this post after they know my slot is town and win the game. This is probably going to be lower effort than it should be, because aside from 72o and Thirteen, this town really doesn't deserve to win. I'm only doing this because it's unfair not to obvtown a little bit before replacing out and possibly putting someone into the position of defending a fake claim they didn't make. With that said, I'm going to give my reads as a list but instead of explaining them individually I'm going to just give a wall analysis of the gamestate and how individual players fit in at the end.

Lucky

72o

Thirteen

Looker

Quick

JamSV

Clark

BM

Raya

I fake claimed because once Quick replaced in I realized he was going to hard push my slot continually throughout the game because he has an obsession with me, and wanted to either delay my elimination today and soak up a mafia NK or RB in setup A, or get eliminated anyway and make mafia obvscum in their efforts to push a claimed TPR. I'm pretty sure I've done the latter well enough.

72o and Thirteen have shared a lot of my thoughts this game. I've held back on openly quoting either of them and agreeing with them because this game has been very straightforward up until bad!town sheeped Raya's counterpush from the Blopp slot onto me. They both have very town mindsets that can be easily traced in their ISOs. 72o has been seeing the game exactly as I have WRT Blopp / Raya. They also treated a TPR claim on a town-read exactly as one should. If people wanted to push my slot for the blanket TPR claim then their play should have continued along the lines of "Lucky's still scummy for the reasons that he was scummy before, therefore he's still scummy now." Instead, the push warped into, "TPR always needs to full claim." Think about this from both perspectives. Mafia has no reason to believe I'm lying about my claim, so they know that I'm not going to get eliminated if I full claim. What they want to know is the setup. Once one TPR full claims, mafia knows what setup we're in. That's Raya's angle, and that's why JamSV's play is so disgustingly bad, because he's doing the legwork

for the mafia

. One they know the setup, they know whether or not the TPR is a safe kill, or in case of column A if they should roleblock the TPR.

I'm willing to put JamSV as town despite his active effort to help mafia win by sorting the setup for them and pushing a TPR claim because (1) I think his desire to eliminate my slot is largely confbiased from a disdain he has towards me from our earlier discussions. Mafia is more open to the idea that people angle for specific reasons and are less able to fake a confbias tunnel. (2) He wants to make up for throwing the last game and is trying to solve the game himself in order to make up for it. He's got a stats background and is the sort of player who finds it more comfortable to understand the bare mechanics of the game than player behavior. It makes sense for a player with his background to want to solve using the matrix rather than by developing their capacity to read behavior and motivation.

The Homura (Looker) and Quick slots I have less to go on, but their positioning relative to gamestate lets them be town. If NK's or investigations intervene with the PoE I provide and you find yourselves with an extra elimination, re-evaluate these slots first. I questioned Homura's positioning WRT my earlier argument with JamSV, but that was more to generate discussion on new topics than to throw shade at Homura. I feel that Homura's positioning is completely normal for someone who (1) doesn't understand the stats argument and, (2) is still salty at being universally townread all game only to have me redirect a wagon from town!me to scum!her, indicating the first point in 3 day phases she received a single scum read, and getting her eliminated literally minutes before the day phase expired in our past game together. I deduce that she's still salty based on one of the comments she made this game. Also, don't hold Quick pushing the three most town players in the game (72o, Thirteen, and myself) against him. That's literally his MO, self-destructing the town as town.

I'm still sold on the BM slot being scum. Sorry BM, you've been dealt a bad hand. People can deny newbie tells as legitimate, but they still work. The only reason he's not a solid

red

is because of the possibilities of angles Raya has taken. I feel that Raya has to act the way she has if Blopp is scum, because she can't win the game alone once Blopp is eliminated. I didn't immediately switch from Blopp to Raya when posting my analysis on her slot because I was giving her the benefit of the doubt, but her continued pushing in bad faith, her constant attempts to buddy half the player list, and some of 72o's points on her slot have convinced me she's 100% scum. If Blopp (BM) is scum, Raya is

always

scum. The only case where Raya is scum and blopp (BM) is not is one where Raya took an incredibly aggressive position of hard defending town!Blopp while chainsaw pushing me in hopes of chain eliminating which ever one of us doesn't get eliminated D1. In that case, Clark is positioned with the highest partner equity for Raya. I decide this because of their early interactions with Raya and their latest ISO of Raya where Raya magically becomes town at the end of it. I think it's more likely that Clark is just new and still learning than that they are scumbuddies with Raya. I think newbie scum might be more likely to join their scumbuddy in pushing me. Maybe Clark should be higher up on the list of townies, I think he's only this low because in the small case where Raya is playing super aggressively and wasn't forced to by a newbie partner getting caught and bailing, she'd need a scumbuddy that's not Blopp (BM). Anyway, it's pretty much always Blopp (BM) / Raya.

@Everyone, JT is right in 442 and 443. I actually didn't realize that I was still in queue when I received a role pm for this game and probably should have declined it, but decided to play anyway when I was dealing with some prolonged annoyances IRL and I let that seep into my discourse this game. I'd like to apologize to anyone I've personally attacked this game, especially the newbies. There's no need for bitterness in mafia, especially in newbie games.

@Mod, I'm out.

[Nahdia]

Now seeking replacement for LuckyLuciano. As a reminder, replacement requests should be made by PM.

[LicketyQuickety]

because he has an obsession with me

No, I don't. My problem is with people who play like you who don't really care about their Town game so they do dumb shit like this so they can pull the same sort of thing as Scum. That's something I despise. It has nothing to do with you personally. It has to do with the fact you would rather play in a way that is more manipulative than straightforward. I don't really care if that is a playstyle or not, it generally makes you a bad person. There are MANY different ways to play this game while still being straightforward and not doing dumb ass shit to up your Scum game.

[JamSV]

because he has an obsession with me

No, I don't. My problem is with people who play like you who don't really care about their Town game so they do dumb shit like this so they can pull the same sort of thing as Scum. That's something I despise. It has nothing to do with you personally. It has to do with the fact you would rather play in a way that is more manipulative than straightforward. I don't really care if that is a playstyle or not, it generally makes you a bad person. There are MANY different ways to play this game while still being straightforward and not doing dumb ass shit to up your Scum game.

In the nicest way possible, he just apologised at the end of that last post, you should at the very least have the courtesy not to slag him off now he's getting a replacement.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Hmm what to do with this slot. I don't want to wait for replacement of we aren't going to give them a fair chance. Personally for me I'd say to almost disregard LL plays for whomever replaces in but I know that's not really possible. I want everyone in this wagon to give their opinions on what just happened.

[ClarkBar]

Hmm what to do with this slot. I don't want to wait for replacement of we aren't going to give them a fair chance. Personally for me I'd say to almost disregard LL plays for whomever replaces in but I know that's not really possible. I want everyone in this wagon to give their opinions on what just happened.

I'll give you my opinion, regardless of the apology at the end of 451 I find the last few posts by LL to be unacceptable. There's a dignified way of doing what LL did, but LL chose to be nasty and childish.

That said, I don't know that I find it all that AI. The fake TPR claim is strange, and potentially disastrous if LL is town and our setup has two masons, but falls in line with the defeatist and trashy behavior LL has demonstrated. His stated reason for doing it is something I find believable given his attitude. Obviously I'd like to hear what his replacement has to say but I don't know that I consider LL's wagon any weaker or stronger than before his embarrassing display.

[JamSV]

Hmm what to do with this slot. I don't want to wait for replacement of we aren't going to give them a fair chance. Personally for me I'd say to almost disregard LL plays for whomever replaces in but I know that's not really possible. I want everyone in this wagon to give their opinions on what just happened.

I don't like to be referred to as a wagoner considering I feel I had the only relatively realistic case against him. Regardless, I might aswell kick off with my interpretation of what just occurred.

First thing, Looker should be 5th in order from Town to Scum, considering, he just joined, and individually would be null irrespective of slot, however, what this means is that during mine and his interaction, he saw what Homura did as more a town play than a scum play. If I remove myself from the options, because obviously it'd be weird if I had a self read, my list would look more like this:

• Thirteen
• Lick
• Clark
• Looker
• BM
• 72
• Raya
• Lucky

Important to note, 72 and Raya are orange by association, Raya being scum distancing, 72 being a generic scum partner. Also important to note Raya has indeed gone from being neutral to scum lean as I've reread over things, but I digress.

I fake claimed because once Quick replaced in I realized he was going to hard push my slot continually throughout the game because he has an obsession with me, and wanted to either delay my elimination today and soak up a mafia NK or RB in setup A, or get eliminated anyway and make mafia obvscum in their efforts to push a claimed TPR. I'm pretty sure I've done the latter well enough.

I want to hear from Lick how accurate this is, that Lick would've pushed for a Lucky hammer regardless.

72o and Thirteen have shared a lot of my thoughts this game. I've held back on openly quoting either of them and agreeing with them because this game has been very straightforward up until bad!town sheeped Raya's counterpush from the Blopp slot onto me.

Personally I don't think it would be great practice to town read / town lean simply because of similar reads, as the game progresses, it certainly does become more of a tell, but at the moment I don't think it's all that valid, but I do understand why he would town read them.

They also treated a TPR claim on a town-read exactly as one should. If people wanted to push my slot for the blanket TPR claim then their play should have continued along the lines of "Lucky's still scummy for the reasons that he was scummy before, therefore he's still scummy now." Instead, the push warped into, "TPR always needs to full claim."

My primary reasons for voting never changed, but it was true I didn't trust the TPR claim at all.

and that's why JamSV's play is so disgustingly bad, because he's doing the legwork

for the mafia

.

I feel like it was an obvious conclusion to arrive at, but I explained it because I didn't want to make a baseless claim that his claim was false.

As for the 4th paragraph I can't discern if its a compliment or an insult.

The Homura (Looker) and Quick slots I have less to go on, but their positioning relative to gamestate lets them be town. If NK's or investigations intervene with the PoE I provide and you find yourselves with an extra elimination, re-evaluate these slots first. I questioned Homura's positioning WRT my earlier argument with JamSV, but that was more to generate discussion on new topics than to throw shade at Homura. I feel that Homura's positioning is completely normal for someone who (1) doesn't understand the stats argument and, (2) is still salty at being universally townread all game only to have me redirect a wagon from town!me to scum!her, indicating the first point in 3 day phases she received a single scum read, and getting her eliminated literally minutes before the day phase expired in our past game together. I deduce that she's still salty based on one of the comments she made this game. Also, don't hold Quick pushing the three most town players in the game (72o, Thirteen, and myself) against him. That's literally his MO, self-destructing the town as town.

I agree with (1) but can't comment much on (2), a previous game I didn't partake in. As for Homura I disagree with Lucky on reasoning, obviously, I don't view 72 or Lucky as likely to be town, so I see the push as more positive than negative, but I do hope he isn't correct and that Lick purposefully ruins games for town as town, but it would explain 453, there was absolutely no need for a personal attack on Lucky in 453, I really don't like it.

- about to have food - will get back to finishing it soon.

[ClarkBar]

I need to do some re-reading today. I am looking forward to the input we should be getting by our three(!) new players and hope for interesting discussions and fresh perspectives. I kinda want to do a list of reads for my own benefit as well as to share my thoughts, but that'll be tough to do with replacements. Still, I'll give it a go. It might take me a while, but I'll be actively reading and responding to posts as they come up.

[LicketyQuickety]

I want to hear from Lick how accurate this is, that Lick would've pushed for a Lucky hammer regardless.

It's complete Bull. I evaluate people based on their play. I don't hold grudges from one game to the next. That said, if I suspect a player who is playing in a dishonest way to up their Scum game, then I'm going to make it my aim to put an especially large amount of scrutiny on that player going forward. But if I see they actually change the way they play, then I will evaluate them based on their new way of playing. I always assume people play this game in an honest way until proven otherwise. LL's antics don't really do anything for me changing how I evaluate that slot going forward since they replaced out and threw a hissy fit. I've documented my reasons for suspecting 72 and LL being teamed and then I reevaluated when I saw what could make sense from them as Town. Whether LL's slot as Town or Scum at this point wouldn't surprise me either way. But it's NOT true that I was somehow holding some grudge against them and would literally throw the game and play against my win con just to spite them.

[LicketyQuickety]

Hmm what to do with this slot. I don't want to wait for replacement of we aren't going to give them a fair chance. Personally for me I'd say to almost disregard LL plays for whomever replaces in but I know that's not really possible. I want everyone in this wagon to give their opinions on what just happened.

I'm totally open to giving the replace in a fair shake.

[Raya36]

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

I don't know where you're getting the don't care about the game vibe because those wall posts about me seemed like caring

[Raya36]

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

We as in town in general

[Raya36]

Looker replaces Homura.

Hey Looker! Please tell me if I'm crazy about thinking Lucky is scum here and your thoughts on getting a proper claim since he claimed a TPR

[Raya36]

I can dig the "scum 101" thing. How do you square that with how Raya has been playing? She has been virtually solely focused on LL, and has given generous town-reads. That doesn't sound to me like a player who is fence-sitting or simply waiting for things to fall into place.

Being solely focused on one player and giving generous town-reads is pretty common scumplay. You town-read people because townies like to be town-read and then they support you on your miskick and you get to be all confused about how you were wrong and reevaluate later.

I'd disagree with that. More scumleans is what I see more often from scum

[ClarkBar]

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

[LicketyQuickety]

@Clark,

That's a good post and I think you have things pretty well mapped out. I also find you gave a fair and balanced look at each player though I'm not convinced that means you are Town.

My one concern is that you want to flip LL before seeing who replaces that slot. That's a bit of a concern but not a huge one. Other than that, I think if you keep playing you could be a fine player and have already shown you have the analytical capabilities to be a pretty good Town player even if you are Scum here.

[ClarkBar]

My one concern is that you want to flip LL before seeing who replaces that slot. That's a bit of a concern but not a huge one.

Did I say that? I'm cool with a replacement coming in and getting a chance to put their two cents in. If I didn't care about that I would've just hammered. The reality is though that after organizing my thoughts better it became clear to me that the LL slot is, in my opinion, the best execution available to us. I don't know what a replacement could offer us, but I'm willing to be patient to find out.

Other than that, I think if you keep playing you could be a fine player and have already shown you have the analytical capabilities to be a pretty good Town player even if you are Scum here.

I appreciate that. My analytical capabilities have so far proved disastrous, but sally forth I must.

[Looker]

Spoiler:

Vote Count 1.08

LuckyLuciano (3):

Looker, JamSV, Raya36

Looker (2):

ClarkBar, 72offsuit

Battle Mage (1):

LuckyLuciano

Raya36 (1):

TheThirteenthJT, 72offsuit

TheThirteenthJT (1):

LicketyQuickety

Not Voting (0):

Battle Mage

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-11 13:52:07)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Nothing!

Still reading, but why is 72offsuit voting twice?

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Explain?

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

1. I can buy that.
2. I don't think anyone would expect to get towncred for asking "what moved your previous game from RVS?" so LAMIST is mis-applied here. You could argue the post is scummy for just being an empty platitude and not actual content, although it was Page 1 of their first game, and it does suggest a low-key impatience to actually get into some proper debate and scumhunting, which would be town-indicative.
3. The 2 votes were unexplained, and just said "she is scum". I'm not sure what sort of response she would have given? Her last post was a response to the RQS from 72offsuit, which then prompted him to answer the questions, and he refused without explanation. It wouldn't really surprise me if she wasn't that engaged by the quality of discussion and lack of meaningful engagement to this point.

I'm generally a big advocate of pressuring lurkers on Day 1, but this was more like picking off the newest player with a wagon which originally wasn't substantiated, and the reasoning eventually cobbled together doesn't stand up to scrutiny. More scummy from 72offsuit for the piggybacking with no explanation, and mistakenly believing it was L-2, than Lucky with the poor explanation and lead proponent role.

[Battle Mage]

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Townpoints for Clark - no reason to defend the newbie here as scum.

@Clark, you have a completed game. Homura has many completed games.

I'm singling out the easiest target with a 'case' which flatters to deceive.

If you want to move the game from RVS, why are you defending Blopp instead of seeing what comes of this?

Just piss off and let me bully the newbie

Also, do not go out of your way to explain the reasoning of others. You are not a God who can read minds, none of us are. Let them explain themselves.

Let them try and explain their way out of my largely bogus case on Page 2, or I'll pick on you instead?

No comment here on Clark towntell

What follows is a gross sequence of posts from Raya (viewer discretion advised):

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

Sheeping here is a bit yuck, especially having seen how weak case is, and Raya surely better player than that?

[...]I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to

get info

put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

what info? since when did it become anti-town to give your opinions on things as they arise? Aggression here towards Clark is odd, given Raya hasn't actually endorsed the case itself and appeared initially to be wagonning for the sake of wagonning. As above, Blopp was set up to fail here, and the pressure to silence dissenters from the easy mislynch is NAGL.

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

What did you want to hear from him?

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to

get out of a tough situation

by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Moreover, I don't like to see SE players giving bad advice to newbies, regardless of alignment.

[Battle Mage]

If you're town and not scum trying to limit info or defend a buddy I'd suggest sharing those thoughts after Blopp responds.

They're still good thoughts but better left when we hear from the person intended to respond

insinuating Clark's defence of Blopp was scum-indicative!?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Blopp

Feel free to hammer, not that anybody would.

Its 00:25 at the moment. Sorry to be inconvenient but rest is needed sometimes.

An invitation to do so? Although not at all convinced Jam-scum is opening this bold.

By the way just before I go off, there are certain things I'll stand by as a matter of policy regardless of meta.

• Quickhammers are NAI, however quickhammers without explanation or warning are Scum Indicative.
• The pretext, something is so scummy, therefore I'm not scum, is highly scummy
• Wagoning is NAI
• I don't like going off of meta nor previous games
• I assume everybody is a good player regardless of experience

With all that send, let's have a good game.

Translation: Scumbuddy, if you quickhammer now, give an explanation or something, and I reckon I can get you off the hook tomorrow?

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily agree with any of the above - all depends on context and a more nuanced approach is essential.

[Battle Mage]

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post.

So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case.

In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

The part in bold was, of course, untrue. The 'case' on Blopp hadn't even been posted at the time of her final post. Can I believe that Lucky, as an SE player in a game of 3 pages had genuinely made that mistake?
On profile pic removal, no explanation here as to why that would be AI? I can't think why it would be.
And still pushing the slot after the inhabitant flakes out is probably mildly scummy given that the case wasn't anything to begin with - in other words, Lucky is less worried about getting a response from the player (despite earlier protestations) and more enthusiastic about running up the slot.

[Looker]

Just wait Quick, you are going to love what I post. A game with both you and Looker in it is bound to be a joke.

It's because I quickhammered humaneatingmonkey. Genuine aggression or are you fucking with me?

Lucky

72o

Thirteen

Looker

Quick

JamSV

Clark

BM

Raya

I'm still sold on the BM slot being scum. Sorry BM, you've been dealt a bad hand. People can deny newbie tells as legitimate, but they still work. The only reason he's not a solid

red

is because of the possibilities of angles Raya has taken. I feel that Raya has to act the way she has if Blopp is scum, because she can't win the game alone once Blopp is eliminated. I didn't immediately switch from Blopp to Raya when posting my analysis on her slot because I was giving her the benefit of the doubt, but her continued pushing in bad faith, her constant attempts to buddy half the player list, and some of 72o's points on her slot have convinced me she's 100% scum. If Blopp (BM) is scum, Raya is

always

scum. The only case where Raya is scum and blopp (BM) is not is one where Raya took an incredibly aggressive position of hard defending town!Blopp while chainsaw pushing me in hopes of chain eliminating which ever one of us doesn't get eliminated D1. In that case, Clark is positioned with the highest partner equity for Raya. I decide this because of their early interactions with Raya and their latest ISO of Raya where Raya magically becomes town at the end of it. I think it's more likely that Clark is just new and still learning than that they are scumbuddies with Raya. I think newbie scum might be more likely to join their scumbuddy in pushing me. Maybe Clark should be higher up on the list of townies, I think he's only this low because in the small case where Raya is playing super aggressively and wasn't forced to by a newbie partner getting caught and bailing, she'd need a scumbuddy that's not Blopp (BM). Anyway, it's pretty much always Blopp (BM) / Raya.

The way you ordered your list is weird to me; why put Raya at the bottom if your chief suspect is Battle Mage? And you're voting Battle Mage but say Raya has the most scum equity.

Looker replaces Homura.

Hey Looker! Please tell me if I'm crazy about thinking Lucky is scum here and your thoughts on getting a proper claim since he claimed a TPR

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano