Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[ClarkBar]

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

Sometimes a good thing is just a good thing.

Why are you answering what I'm directing at BM?

Because I have an opinion.

[72offsuit]

Raya's 428 is the scummiest post in this game. Please everyone take the time to follow this exchange.

[72offsuit]

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

Sometimes a good thing is just a good thing.

Why are you answering what I'm directing at BM?

Because I have an opinion.

That's fine. It'd nice if you held of until BM answered though.

[72offsuit]

EBWOP: off*

[72offsuit]

Not only does he include himself in the "we" of town, which is independently scummy, but more importantly,

also does not specifically refer to the specific players that stated believed LL's claim was genuine.

[72offsuit]

Apologies raya, I've been saying "he". My bad.

[LicketyQuickety]

Looker
LicketyQuickety
JamS

Only 2 town-reads when from !town BM's PoV there are 7 other town?
Yeah nah. Scummy reads list.

Agree. Didn't like his long silence either but that might now be AI. Just felt they could have posted earlier if they wanted.

Why is everyone TRing 13 so hard?

[ClarkBar]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

[ClarkBar]

Agree. Didn't like his long silence either but that might now be AI. Just felt they could have posted earlier if they wanted.

Why is everyone TRing 13 so hard?

Who is everyone? 13 isn't a town lock for me. Just for me not even in the ballpark for a worthy D1 execution.

BM not flooding this game with posts right off the bat is not AI.

[ClarkBar]

This guy is probably town? Bold pings me though, as the first indication that Clark supports the wagon - previously had been main opponent of it. Not sure of scum motive for that - wanting to stick with crowd? But then why stand out in the first place?

I was never an opponent of the Blopp wagon. It just didn't do it for me enough to hop on, but I understood the reasoning behind it. Me asking LL about his reasoning is not the same as being some white knight for Blopp.

[72offsuit]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

When did i state my disdain of the Blopp wagon?

[72offsuit]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

No i didn;t recall any particular summation or any outstanding questions. Please post the post number. It's hard enough following the thread without links or a number. If its something you really want answered or responded to, the easier you make it, the more likely someone will do it.

It's the scummiest post, because not many people have actually come out and said they believed LL's claim was real, despite raya saying
"So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim"

Why didn;t raya just direct that towards me?
It gives me the impresssion raya knows I;m town and has extrapolated my view onto "town" in general.






The fact raya disappeared, after I challenged her, is pretty telling in its own right.

[72offsuit]

Because I thought the LL wagon was garbage and he tends to have decent reads.

[72offsuit]

And the fact my #1 scumread is pushing said wagon

[LicketyQuickety]

Scum ALWAYS

Wut? I only SR LL for claiming because that is what LL would do as Scum. I don't expect TOWN to claim PR as VT. Why should I expect that, 72?

[LicketyQuickety]

Hmm what to do with this slot. I don't want to wait for replacement of we aren't going to give them a fair chance. Personally for me I'd say to almost disregard LL plays for whomever replaces in but I know that's not really possible. I want everyone in this wagon to give their opinions on what just happened.

I'll give you my opinion, regardless of the apology at the end of 451 I find the last few posts by LL to be unacceptable. There's a dignified way of doing what LL did, but LL chose to be nasty and childish.

That said, I don't know that I find it all that AI. The fake TPR claim is strange, and potentially disastrous if LL is town and our setup has two masons, but falls in line with the defeatist and trashy behavior LL has demonstrated. His stated reason for doing it is something I find believable given his attitude. Obviously I'd like to hear what his replacement has to say but I don't know that I consider LL's wagon any weaker or stronger than before his embarrassing display.

I have seen LL be a bit snarky and abrasive before, that time he was scum. Newbie 2001.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82865

In that game:
LL's post 507, his 576, his 580, his 582.

I don;t think his abrasiveness there really compares to it in this game.
There he swears more, and is more AtE-ish (Appealing to Emotion)

Having played with Quick before, I can understand LL's frustration towards Quick.

Regardless, I'm fairly confident that LL is town and Raya is scum.

Get off LL's dick for Christ's sake.

[Nahdia]

Porkens replaces LuckyLuciano.

[Porkens]

Hey hey hey!

Good evening moons, I’m porkens. I like to lolhammer, memegambit, and fall scumteams day 1. My perfect date includes lying on the floor, playing Super Nintendo, and eating chips.

Fun fact: I skimmed this slot and was BLOWN AWAY to get a town PM.

Ill read if I have to but I’ll give a cookie to anyone who catches me up on the game state!!

[Porkens]

This is the scumteam:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Blopp

For having the word Townie as a title as fake town.

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Agreed.

VOTE: Blopp

THANK YOU NEXT!

[Porkens]

This list is total crap and almost completely upside down.

Lucky
72o
Thirteen
Looker
Quick
JamSV
Clark
BM
Raya

About half the day I’m scumreading 72, although he started to pick up towards the end here. I don’t hate his thoughts on reya tbf.
Raya is townlean tho
Clark and jam are probtown
Bm and quick are probtown
Looker and thirteen are leanscum

72 has no votes? That’s rediculois. VOTE: 72

[Porkens]

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum? I play on epic mafia sometimes, started there. My pie is shit.
2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum? Town
3. What do you think of lynching lurkers? Depends on the particular flavor of lurking and gamestate
4. What do you think of lynching liars? Depends on the lie, and the liar

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

Vote Count 1.08

LuckyLuciano (3):

Looker, JamSV, Raya36

Looker (2):

ClarkBar, 72offsuit

Battle Mage (1):

LuckyLuciano

Raya36 (1):

TheThirteenthJT, 72offsuit

TheThirteenthJT (1):

LicketyQuickety

Not Voting (0):

Battle Mage

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-11 13:52:07)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Nothing!

Still reading, but why is 72offsuit voting twice?

I'm the town mayor, so I get 2 votes.
I never voted for Homura, who knows, mod wanted to spice the game up?

[72offsuit]

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Townpoints for Clark - no reason to defend the newbie here as scum.

@Clark, you have a completed game. Homura has many completed games.

I'm singling out the easiest target with a 'case' which flatters to deceive.

If you want to move the game from RVS, why are you defending Blopp instead of seeing what comes of this?

Just piss off and let me bully the newbie

Also, do not go out of your way to explain the reasoning of others. You are not a God who can read minds, none of us are. Let them explain themselves.

Let them try and explain their way out of my largely bogus case on Page 2, or I'll pick on you instead?

No comment here on Clark towntell

What follows is a gross sequence of posts from Raya (viewer discretion advised):

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

Sheeping here is a bit yuck, especially having seen how weak case is, and Raya surely better player than that?

[...]I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to

get info

put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

what info? since when did it become anti-town to give your opinions on things as they arise? Aggression here towards Clark is odd, given Raya hasn't actually endorsed the case itself and appeared initially to be wagonning for the sake of wagonning. As above, Blopp was set up to fail here, and the pressure to silence dissenters from the easy mislynch is NAGL.

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

What did you want to hear from him?

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to

get out of a tough situation

by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Moreover, I don't like to see SE players giving bad advice to newbies, regardless of alignment.

No reason to townread/defend a newbie as scum?
This is so wrong its not funny. Pocketing newbies is scum 101. Literally the first page of the manual. Newbies in general are much more impressionable and tend to be easier to pocket.

[72offsuit]

Hey hey hey!

Good evening moons, I’m porkens. I like to lolhammer, memegambit, and fall scumteams day 1. My perfect date includes lying on the floor, playing Super Nintendo, and eating chips.

Fun fact: I skimmed this slot and was BLOWN AWAY to get a town PM.

Ill read if I have to but I’ll give a cookie to anyone who catches me up on the game state!!

1. Newbie Blopp deletes avatar and then disappears
2. Blopp gets wagoned
3. LL gets wagoned.
4. LL claims PR
5. LL retracts PR claim
6. Neither LL nor I are fans of Quick
7. Raya is scum

I;d like white chocolate chip thanks.