Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Dunnstral]

Blair I take it you were not impressed with the meta?

[Nauci]

@Cat Scratch Fever: what’s the case on Nauci? Her actions around the GL wagon are weird, sure. But in a very short span she votes GL, unvotes him. Later she mentions GL in 493 but also is critical of Norwegian in 494 & 496. I’m not sure scum!Nauci unvotes GL and makes 494 & 496. This seems to me like town reconsidering between the two whereas scum would’ve parked the vote and called it a day.

@Popopo: as for your read list. So I’m scummy for moving my RVS to a player I’m now reading as scum? That coincided with my catchup and not your post prodding me. Also, if you have Cat Scratch Fever as your top SR, you see how voting with Norwegian is problematic right? I hope you don’t blindly follow his votes for too much longer. Despite what Norwegian’s response was in 621, I FULLY support Looker’s 620 (not only the thing about your voting habits but also the thing about Truth too).

Disclaimer: I’m really bad at reading a bus’ing vote, but I wouldn’t consider that a bus’ing scenario for Nauci right there. I think the fact she place her vote on one side, then reconsidered it and pushed the side she had voted with is town intentions.

The way that Mavs interacted with the attempted wagon on me made me town read him back then; he could have easily not tried to push back against it at that point. Before I AFKed for way too long I had him as a solid town read, so between that and Dunn's reaction to the wagon on him I have that slot as a town lean. Did anything happen on day 2 that dramatically impacts this?

[Nauci]

Well first of all, i think it’s town to say he’s doing it for reactions. He also included a reads list afterwards which proves that point. Also i’m getting a distinct feel of his town meta from recent posts. As scum he would probably lurk hard and only pop in to say some irrelevant stuff or try to fake a different progression when he started being suspected/wagoned.

bad reasons for townreading somebody

you're literally just imagining some specific way he would play as scum and then saying because he's not doing that, he's town. How many times have you played with popopopopopopopopop scum?

GL is such a good player honestly in my top 5 site wide

[Nauci]

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

This post claiming issues with my vote is leaving out the VITAL fact that I am norwe's vote slave. In doing that, he completely misrepresented my supposed reasoning for switching votes. The push feels fake and based off a misrep. Norwe was cranking the pressure up pretty hard my man guilty needed a release.

Okay so now is the time to just stop with this whole vote slave bullshit. Start voting according to actual suspicions you have and not ones that are just spoon fed to you by your vote master. It is pro-town for us to get legitimate, un-tinted reads on you, not skewed and mixed up reads because we're trying to decipher between what's your genuine read on someone vs your vote master's read. Besides, if you're openly just casting votes to build up wagon numbers then the power of a wagon on someone is weakened. We have to maintain the pressure of a wagon and not sabotage one of our tools for getting scum to out themselves. Wagon people but don't defeat your own vote's power by publicizing, "I'm just following the leader with my vote to put people under more pressure." This is a variation of the exact conversation I had with Truth in my previous 2 posts.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

i mean who tf knows with this guy. He wants to nolynch, then he wants to quick lynch. Idk his alignment but certified VI

Can you actually make an effort rather than just being like "Omg Idk I just know you suck?" What would your reads be on him if he hadn't claimed mason? What are your thoughts on if he is the scum in a hood?

i owe norwe big, more than owe him im in debt to him. the reactions i am getting for this schtick also has been and will continue to be fruitful

When will you have to pick between loyalty to Norway or to this town and get off the fence? How long do you intend to continue this? We have a lot of discussion on your vote slave ordeal to discuss, now can you stop so we can get a different perspective to read you?

---~---

idk about "can't be scum with GL" since I don't bother with pre-flip associations but I want to wagon this

VOTE: Nauci

She seemed interested in figuring out popo's alignment earlier, but then this wagon on him built up to L-2

and

popo dropped a readslist and she pops in but doesn't comment on either at all.

This makes me want to iso Nauci. I'll be looking into.

---~---

Reading up p26 Norway v GL feels TvT even though I haven't been able to figure out my read on GL up until now. This interaction feels towny from GL but I still havent been able to sort out his previous 1v1 earlier on. I need to go back and re-read it to clear up some haziness I have there. I have a hard time reading GL's posts and comprehending what the point is.

---~---

Town reads are Noway and Cat Scratch right now. Norway vs GL recently gives off such strong scum hunting vibes from both sides and as an isolated argument feels TvT. I just want Noway to tell popopo to stop following his lead. I need to reread some of GL's earlier gameplay and then read through Norway vs GL with those revised lenses on. Cat has strong points and great townie questions in 537, 539, 548, 549, and 703.

Town lean to Looker as explained in 692
Town points to Quick on 521

Null on Candy shop. I started off by reading town but the lack of posts has me asking questions, particularly why is he still voting no lynch?? 442 was great questioning that sounded towny but there's been nothing since 473 and the vote is still on no lynch and that's just weird and gives me strange vibes.

Scum lean on popopo for everything at the top of this post
Scum read still on Truth for literally every post he's made

Interested in going back to reread up on Nauci and GL as I feel like there's some meat there I haven't gotten to. Struggling to keep up with y'all but doing my best.

tl;dr version: VOTE: popopopopo because I'm not down with a GL wagon until I go back and re-read, and popopo's defense has been shit basically just saying he owes Norway and he's doing it for reactions to talk about. Popopopopo can you stop being vague and irrational about when you'll stop voting with norway, and answer my questions above in response to your 555? It could very well be that you're scum trying to use this vote slave bullshit as a way to fly under everyone else's radar, and when it didn't work, the best way for you to push through a wagon on yourself is to stick to your guns and look like you've just been doing it for 1)loyalty to Norway, 2)scumhunting by getting reactions, or 3)shits and giggles all along. Pushing all this would be a great guise for scum except that you're twisted up in your own net and haven't been able to fly low.

And if that wasn't your plan, then your plan could have been to rile up all this nonsense and look so bold no one would think scum would do something so risky. Idk which way it goes, but each way I see at the moment looks messy unless you can just give us some original thoughts and original votes that aren't based on Norway and then we can get some un-tainted reads on you.

I want to give Glitch a town read for this post but all of the analysis here was stuff that had been said by other people several pages prior IIRC so I couldn't actually give those points?

I think now I can give some amount because it was a legit push on popo when there was real pressure that could have gotten him d1 lynched

[Nauci]

Glitch, Truth is definitely not making it near LYLO so why don't you just focus on everybody else for now? That's why we're ignoring it—this slot WILL be resolved eventually but it's not terribly useful to do it today no matter how many scummy posts they make.

That's why I'm shifting gears to Popo and others. That said, it doesn't make sense to me why we shouldn't discuss something just because the majority has just dismissed it for tomorrow. If there's a legitimate concern that truth is scum, Ben the scummiest thing for his scum Partners to do would be to try and just put off the Mason discussion until further notice. It's not like it hurts the town at all to talk about these things. I'm opening up my discussion and evaluations two other players because it's obvious that we are not going to get a wagon formed on truth. But I really don't like your dismissal until tomorrow. I'll come back to that in a little bit and if truth ever what's scum this conversation will be important.

I'm on my way to work and I work in a breakfast and lunch restaurant. Father's Day is generally the busiest day of the year or close second to Mother's Day. Probably won't be back on until late this evening.

Also, I feel like a Truth flip would resolve this slot to a large degree

[Nauci]

This post shouldn't come from town and overall norwee is much townier in the norwee-lion interaction.

It's funny to me that people were saying I'm not scummy because I specifically considered both sides of GL v NEE and scum would probably just take the opportunity to shade one of the two, and even after all of that discussion, NDM made this post

[Nauci]

I saw your vote but didn't realize you jumped ship on Norway. I wasn't tracking whether your votes followed Norway's, I just assumed they all were. I was focusing on breaking down and analyzing your play so far and this post I actually did miss:

@Popopo, can you tell me your actual reads now? Our contract is rescinded.

678 is shit though because there is no explanation as to why you stopped and it looks like "omg the town might lynch me if I don't stop following Norway now," but there was literally nothing added or explanation given, it was like a desperate attempt to just dodge and deflect. And if you're scum you've been planning your easy slide out of sheeping Norway to vote a nice easy one on Cat Scratch as you've planted shallow reasoning for Cat to be on your scum list since 536. Your whole argument is that CSF has more town reads and less scum reads but it's important to have solid town reads in a game too, not just SRs. Regarding my vote, I'm not opposed to your wagon. We have plenty of time to see you actually play your own thoughts out now that you've abandoned this vote slave complex.

This post makes me feel somewhat more comfortable putting Glitch in my town reads

[Nauci]

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

Hey NDM do these excuses still hold up now that we're at page 83

[NDMath]

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

Glitch's posts have been townie this phase and I like nauci's above string of posts. I still think Looker has to be town because of how different his tone and more focused his play is from his scum game.

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

Hey NDM do these excuses still hold up now that we're at page 83

I'm unsure how to answer that?
No for 777 but more or less for 227.

[Truth]

What would you like me to answer, Blair? How can I prove to you that I am town?

The first post you showed in that post you voted me, I was lying and was not okay with being lynched. I was just trying to prove to mafia that I actually was a mason and had no fear of proving my buddies as innocent if I died.

[Truth]

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

[NDMath]

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

I can agree my solve doesn't make the most sense...

I'm struggling with your claim gambit. My first reaction is that it comes from town over scum, but I am struggling to justify that to myself.

[Glitch]

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

When did this read on Truth develop and how did you come to this conclusion? Looking through your ISO, you have very little to say about Truth, and the few things you do say aren't much. Additionally, you even left him out of your reads lists all three times you posted one.

If it's a neighborhood it must strictly be with candyshop/blair because that's the only way it hasn't been outed yet.
So he's either mason or mafia. He isn't be the hang today, so I'm not gonna give further comment until it's a day we could realistically hang him.

Why did you put off the Truth discussion until today? Because it's a slot that will "work itself out?" Or because you're scum and didn't want to push against someone you believed could be a mason, making it very difficult to get him voted off during a day phase?

[Glitch]

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

I can agree my solve doesn't make the most sense...

I'm struggling with your claim gambit. My first reaction is that it comes from town over scum, but I am struggling to justify that to myself.

If you're first reaction is that his claim gambit is town indicative, and then upon further inspection you find that the main 2 people Truth has pushed this game are your top SR and a confirmed scum, then how do those things work together to make you think Truth is scum? If you're just thinking out loud as you're developing your read, that's fine; I just would like to hear what your complete judgement is on the Truth slot once you think all these things through. Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

[Blair]

Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of the Truth wagon. If he were being eliminated for playing like a noob, it would have happened on Day 1.

People have presented complex, carefully thought out, nuanced arguments for why they believe Truth is scum - why are you reducing the debate to this?

[Blair]

Blair I take it you were not impressed with the meta?

NDMath is still a top suspect for me, and the meta observation was valid.

I'm also not persuaded that NDMath has adequately addressed why he is playing differently here from his town game.

Truth just looks worse to me. Glitch is also looking pretty scummy to me at this point. It's like a race to the bottom of my town reads.

[Glitch]

Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of the Truth wagon. If he were being eliminated for playing like a noob, it would have happened on Day 1.

People have presented complex, carefully thought out, nuanced arguments for why they believe Truth is scum - why are you reducing the debate to this?

I think you're over-buffing the arguments presented against him. I've had a lot of questions, and there have been a lot of things that don't make sense that have come up -- and most times I bring them up or someone else does, Truth comes back with an answer that is consistent with the playstyle of a noob townie that has played the same game all along. Truth is either playing noob!scum or noob!town and when you read these excerpts, noob!town makes a lot more sense than noob!scum:

Spoiler: Truth's posts that can't be noob scum

Goddammit, I suck. All this discussion about me is a waste of time because I am not mafia. I'm sorry for leading town down this route because it just helps mafia hide behind this. I regret claiming.

Should we quickly lynch popopopopopopopopo and go into night? I don't we'll get a better suspect than this and it may be good to go to the night without giving mafia any more information.

I am personally happy with my vote on po

My suspects are po

popopopopopopo (1): Truth ... Mafia!

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

Are people doubting my mason claim because I didn't die? I think maybe mafia didn't target me because they were scared of doctors being on me. Which is great!

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

I only went off the po wagon because I thought the vigilante could kill him instead without giving themselves away. I still thought he was mafia from day 1 to day 2.

I claimed the miller part because I saw on the wiki that people who get miller claim it in day 1, so I thought it would make me more believable.

NDMath, why should a doctor speak up instead of just secretly protecting Blair and making mafia waste a kill?

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

The first post you showed in that post you voted me, I was lying and was not okay with being lynched. I was just trying to prove to mafia that I actually was a mason and had no fear of proving my buddies as innocent if I died.

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

Truth says he claimed mason to stay alive and miller so he could claim right off the bat. That makes sense for a noob town to make that play.

[Looker]

I wasn't asking if you thought it was scummy, I was asking what 'questions' and 'pushes' of "remarkable strength" look like to you. Because I'm not sure you're not just saying things to make you look better.

I've tried to up my game this time a lot because in past games I have been voted off for playing poorly and because my scum hunting sucks. I read up on how to be a good scum hunter on the wiki and this is one of the main points that has stuck with me:

So you're following a checklist on "How To Town"?

2. Don't lose sight.

Ignore other players' inquiries if their questions don't move you closer to lynching your target player. Take things further. Get an emotional reaction out of your victim by heavily accusing them of scum backed by whatever evidence you have.

It should be 50% evidence, 50% accusation.

You should make it clear to your suspect that you will never change your mind about them, and you will do anything to get them lynched, every day, every page, every damn post. This will work to your advantage. Keep the ball on your court, rob the scum of their dominance and place them in a frame of survival. This way, you are exploiting the maximum bussing potential of a scumteam.

This is something I've been working hard on in this game as I try to improve, and because of that, it's something that I've also been watching how others approach. It makes sense why it's pro-town -- it gets results, it creates content, it exposes vulnerabilities. Basically the essence is... push people hard. Use evidence and use accusation. I haven't seen much of the latter in your posts; and I'm not saying that that makes your posts poor quality. I enjoy reading your posts and I like how organized and systematized you are in writing them, and I think you are very observant and address important points. But I don't see many accusations and I don't see a lot of pushing. I just see a lot of poking around and digging, which, like I said, is good. But to my answer to your question: when I said I didn't see a lot of strength to your pushes, that's what I was talking about. Rather than push with accusations and using your vote with a case to sway others and form more pressure, it seemed that all the votes you've cast this game aren't accompanied by much of a case at all.

• How many games have you played with ABR where his methods have been effective?
  
• You're also avoiding my request - give me an example of a 'hard push'.
  
• And I get that you thought "Man, I suck at mafia; I should get some help", but I don't feel that way, and I'm not going to manufacture faux aggression to impress some guy who takes advice from ABR. He doesn't really seem to enjoy the games I've seen him play.
  • Also, I stand by my votes and the way that I made them.

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

I think it's suspicious that no one wants to jump on Nauci with me. Usually you can get at least one scum if the wagon is on town.

---

• Nauci's 2049 didn't clear up to me who
  s
  he thinks is scum - who is
  s
  he going to vote?

[Glitch]

I argue that the second tool had no utility at that specific point in time. You keep saying "it's a weak scum move" but that wouldn't/doesn't make it scum indicative.

Let me put this together. When I broke this down and analyzed this:

Spoiler: NDmath's progression on osuka, Day 1

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

(Posting one at a time to make lion happy.)

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

What's there to not understand?

Osuka's posts comprise of the brief fight with Quick, a lot of posts facepalming at Truth which are mostly meaningless, and a very lazy and unsubstantiated push on me.

I scumreads the way that Osuka talks about my posting as "weird" repeatedly without ever explaining weird how—it's exactly the kind of shallow shade throwing without being able to come up with a proper case/narrative that signifies scum pushes vs town ones, especially at an opportune time when others like CSF were FoSing me.

He has repeatedly tried to misconstrue the way I have tried to explain his meta to the game as buddying, even though I've repeatedly told him and everyone else why I said what I did about him and wasn't at buddying. He's not engaging with my push at all or answering my question.

I read osuka's iso, I should have done that in the first place.

@NDMath you said you were fully caught up, right? Why are you still not voting?

I'm getting too much humour out of people making comments on me not voting.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

I have Intent to hammer on osuka.

What you're saying is that at no point was your vote useful or called for when you were evaluating osuka in 828 and 908. Okay, that makes sense. You weren't shading him. You weren't outright SR'ing him. When you replaced in you actually had him ranked pretty high on your reads list in your 722 catchup. So, okay. Fair.

But

if you were not SR'ing osuka at that point then it's too convenient that you DID answer my accusations in 1944 that withholding your vote from osuka was strange, but DID NOT address my questions about what your progression on osuka was. I asked you: What was the progression and what changed in your read on osuka from 828 and 908 all the way up to 1501? There was no progression. It was bullshit. You made a statement between 828 and your intent to hammer osuka in 1501, but it is borderline self-contradictory:

Osuka I am bewildered more than anything. The extent of his truth interaction

doesn't make sense to me

for either alignment.

There's nothing wrong in the nature of the attacks on him but the points are fully in his control and scum!osuka probably(?) wouldn't have played into that situation in the first place. (Grant, I have no experience with osuka.) [...]

Towniest
Quick Norwee
Looker
Catscratch
Mavs popo nauci --null

osuka

Blair
Guilty Glitch

So osuka doesn't make sense for either alignment, which to me I understand as null. But later in the same post he's on your reads list as scummier than null... just not scummiest. So what happened? When and why did osuka go from not-worth-voting-for early on, to null, to intent to hammer?

Also:

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

I can agree my solve doesn't make the most sense...

Once again, just like with osuka, your read on Truth and your statement on Truth don't line up with each other. It would be really convenient for scum to have the ability to leave comments and reads behind that show both support AND hesitancy towards the osuka lynch and the Truth Train, so that if they fall under scrutiny for one of their uncertain or not-super-clear statements, they could reference back to the other one and say, "Look, I didn't mean it like that." There's too much that doesn't line up and it feels like scum walking on egg shells.

VOTE: NDmath

[Blair]

Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of the Truth wagon. If he were being eliminated for playing like a noob, it would have happened on Day 1.

People have presented complex, carefully thought out, nuanced arguments for why they believe Truth is scum - why are you reducing the debate to this?

I think you're over-buffing the arguments presented against him. I've had a lot of questions, and there have been a lot of things that don't make sense that have come up -- and most times I bring them up or someone else does, Truth comes back with an answer that is consistent with the playstyle of a noob townie that has played the same game all along. Truth is either playing noob!scum or noob!town and when you read these excerpts, noob!town makes a lot more sense than noob!scum:

Spoiler: Truth's posts that can't be noob scum

Goddammit, I suck. All this discussion about me is a waste of time because I am not mafia. I'm sorry for leading town down this route because it just helps mafia hide behind this. I regret claiming.

Should we quickly lynch popopopopopopopopo and go into night? I don't we'll get a better suspect than this and it may be good to go to the night without giving mafia any more information.

I am personally happy with my vote on po

My suspects are po

popopopopopopo (1): Truth ... Mafia!

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

Are people doubting my mason claim because I didn't die? I think maybe mafia didn't target me because they were scared of doctors being on me. Which is great!

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

I only went off the po wagon because I thought the vigilante could kill him instead without giving themselves away. I still thought he was mafia from day 1 to day 2.

I claimed the miller part because I saw on the wiki that people who get miller claim it in day 1, so I thought it would make me more believable.

NDMath, why should a doctor speak up instead of just secretly protecting Blair and making mafia waste a kill?

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

The first post you showed in that post you voted me, I was lying and was not okay with being lynched. I was just trying to prove to mafia that I actually was a mason and had no fear of proving my buddies as innocent if I died.

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

Truth says he claimed mason to stay alive and miller so he could claim right off the bat. That makes sense for a noob town to make that play.

That's all well and good, but you didn't just characterize Truth as a newbie - you characterized the case(s) against him as him being scumread for being a newbie. This was false.

VOTE: Glitch

These posts read like scum who knows we're about to flip a Townie.

Stop making me change my vote.

[Glitch]

I wasn't asking if you thought it was scummy, I was asking what 'questions' and 'pushes' of "remarkable strength" look like to you. Because I'm not sure you're not just saying things to make you look better.

I've tried to up my game this time a lot because in past games I have been voted off for playing poorly and because my scum hunting sucks. I read up on how to be a good scum hunter on the wiki and this is one of the main points that has stuck with me:

So you're following a checklist on "How To Town"?

2. Don't lose sight.

Ignore other players' inquiries if their questions don't move you closer to lynching your target player. Take things further. Get an emotional reaction out of your victim by heavily accusing them of scum backed by whatever evidence you have.

It should be 50% evidence, 50% accusation.

You should make it clear to your suspect that you will never change your mind about them, and you will do anything to get them lynched, every day, every page, every damn post. This will work to your advantage. Keep the ball on your court, rob the scum of their dominance and place them in a frame of survival. This way, you are exploiting the maximum bussing potential of a scumteam.

This is something I've been working hard on in this game as I try to improve, and because of that, it's something that I've also been watching how others approach. It makes sense why it's pro-town -- it gets results, it creates content, it exposes vulnerabilities. Basically the essence is... push people hard. Use evidence and use accusation. I haven't seen much of the latter in your posts; and I'm not saying that that makes your posts poor quality. I enjoy reading your posts and I like how organized and systematized you are in writing them, and I think you are very observant and address important points. But I don't see many accusations and I don't see a lot of pushing. I just see a lot of poking around and digging, which, like I said, is good. But to my answer to your question: when I said I didn't see a lot of strength to your pushes, that's what I was talking about. Rather than push with accusations and using your vote with a case to sway others and form more pressure, it seemed that all the votes you've cast this game aren't accompanied by much of a case at all.

• How many games have you played with ABR where his methods have been effective?
  
• You're also avoiding my request - give me an example of a 'hard push'.
  
• And I get that you thought "Man, I suck at mafia; I should get some help", but I don't feel that way, and I'm not going to manufacture faux aggression to impress some guy who takes advice from ABR. He doesn't really seem to enjoy the games I've seen him play.
  • Also, I stand by my votes and the way that I made them.

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

I think it's suspicious that no one wants to jump on Nauci with me. Usually you can get at least one scum if the wagon is on town.

---

• Nauci's 2049 didn't clear up to me who
  s
  he thinks is scum - who is
  s
  he going to vote?

Lmao, how to town. xD In a way, yes, I've been taking as many pointers from the wiki as I can. I appreciate this response though because the article I referenced I presumed to be widely or generally accepted by the MS community as a valid article since it is up on the wiki itself. Other personalities, approaches, and strategies alter this of course but I guess I've just got to stop reading everything through lenses of one pro's interpretation of how to play well. To answer an example of a hard push -- I have tried multiple games to do this. My Second Push on Cat Scratch, my Push on Truth before he said the miller mason claim was false, and my Push on NDmath are examples of where I have tried hard to incorporate solid cases I have considered a hard push. I understand what you're saying, though, about not manufacturing faux aggression and I have never played or known anything about the author of that article -- I just thought it was widely accepted from being on the wiki. I get what you're saying though and am gonna try to adjust my analyses accordingly.

That said, I'm curious why you think that 2049 does not indicate that Nauci clearly SR's Truth?

[Blair]

Albert B. Rampage's tactics are not widely accepted, despite being on the wiki.

(Faux aggression is great, though, if you have the chutzpah to pull it off)

[Glitch]

Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of the Truth wagon. If he were being eliminated for playing like a noob, it would have happened on Day 1.

People have presented complex, carefully thought out, nuanced arguments for why they believe Truth is scum - why are you reducing the debate to this?

I think you're over-buffing the arguments presented against him. I've had a lot of questions, and there have been a lot of things that don't make sense that have come up -- and most times I bring them up or someone else does, Truth comes back with an answer that is consistent with the playstyle of a noob townie that has played the same game all along. Truth is either playing noob!scum or noob!town and when you read these excerpts, noob!town makes a lot more sense than noob!scum:

Spoiler: Truth's posts that can't be noob scum

Goddammit, I suck. All this discussion about me is a waste of time because I am not mafia. I'm sorry for leading town down this route because it just helps mafia hide behind this. I regret claiming.

Should we quickly lynch popopopopopopopopo and go into night? I don't we'll get a better suspect than this and it may be good to go to the night without giving mafia any more information.

I am personally happy with my vote on po

My suspects are po

popopopopopopo (1): Truth ... Mafia!

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

Are people doubting my mason claim because I didn't die? I think maybe mafia didn't target me because they were scared of doctors being on me. Which is great!

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

I only went off the po wagon because I thought the vigilante could kill him instead without giving themselves away. I still thought he was mafia from day 1 to day 2.

I claimed the miller part because I saw on the wiki that people who get miller claim it in day 1, so I thought it would make me more believable.

NDMath, why should a doctor speak up instead of just secretly protecting Blair and making mafia waste a kill?

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

The first post you showed in that post you voted me, I was lying and was not okay with being lynched. I was just trying to prove to mafia that I actually was a mason and had no fear of proving my buddies as innocent if I died.

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

Truth says he claimed mason to stay alive and miller so he could claim right off the bat. That makes sense for a noob town to make that play.

That's all well and good, but you didn't just characterize Truth as a newbie - you characterized the case(s) against him as him being scumread for being a newbie. This was false.

VOTE: Glitch

These posts read like scum who knows we're about to flip a Townie.

Stop making me change my vote.

The case(s) against him that you say are SR'ing Truth for being scum are these, corrent?

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

Two problems with that:

1. You'd have to already know Miller was a viable option in the first place to even CHECK the wiki page for Miller (I bring this up because you are playing the "Ignorant Newbie" card.

2. The VERY NEXT sentence on the wiki states that claiming Miller makes you more likely to be voted out or shot by a Vigilante.

You claimed that the entire reason you lied about being a Miller was to get yourself nightkilled, but then tacked a Miller claim onto it that made the nightkill extremely unlikely.

It makes more sense to me that you claimed Miller so you wouldn't be investigated, and tacked Mason onto it so you wouldn't be lynched.

"Get nightkilled" and "Don't get lynched" are not mutually exclusive.

"Get nightkilled by fake claiming" and "Fake claim something that gets lynched or vig'd often" are actual contradictions, however.

Your argument breaks down to thinking Truth is scum because he is contradicting himself when claiming miller, which effectively keeps him from getting NK'd. But Truth said that he claimed mason to stay alive during the day phase, and miller so that he could claim right out the gate. That's not the smartest move, because claiming mason would get him NK'd but miller would keep him from getting NK'd, but that's something I totally would believe Truth would not consider. Truth said in 1999 that he claimed miller so that he could claim immediately. That makes sense. If you want to SR me for defending Truth, that's fine but it doesn't follow. If I were scum I would have hopped on this Truth Train a long time ago. I've made argument after argument against Truth and wanted to lynch him for so long, but when popo flipped scum and Truth revealed that the whole thing was a lie, my read flipped on him and I just can't support voting off someone I have such a strong TR on. I'm more inclined to believe that the scum are pushing this truth train because it's the easiest place to push and get support on.

[Glitch]

Albert B. Rampage's tactics are not widely accepted, despite being on the wiki.

(Faux aggression is great, though, if you have the chutzpah to pull it off)

I guess that's my learning point today. I'll release my adherence to the article then and look forward to a post-game discussion where maybe I can get some pointers from the active and skilled players here.

[Blair]

I'm more inclined to believe that the scum are pushing this truth train because it's the easiest place to push and get support on.

Name them?