Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Truth]

I am starting to think Blair might be mafia. She is ignoring me when I'm trying to convince her and get her to talk to me. She also keeps moving her lynch target around like she doesn't actually believe in what she's going for.

A few pages ago, she said people were racing to be at the bottom of her "townreads". I find this suspcious - why didn't she say "mafiareads" or "scumreads"? I think this might be her slipping in knowing that the two people she was talking about were both town.

[Truth]

And she is now voting and attacking my number 1 townread because they are defending me. I think she is trying to make us all suspicious of each other.

VOTE: Blair

[Blair]

A few pages ago, she said people were racing to be at the bottom of her "townreads". I find this suspcious - why didn't she say "mafiareads" or "scumreads"? I think this might be her slipping in knowing that the two people she was talking about were both town.

"Race to the bottom of my scum reads" wouldn't make much sense in this context.

[Blair]

But by all means, vote for the confirmed Vigilante.

[Blair]

I don't use the term "confirmed" lightly:

1. I claimed on Day 2

2. There were two kills on Night 2

• The fact there were two kills proves there is a Vigilante (there are no Serial Killers in mini normals)
  
• The fact neither of the kills were directed at me proves there is no "real" vig avoiding counter claiming me (there are no redirecting roles in Normals)

3. No one has counter claimed.

[Glitch]

[post style=Looker]

I'm more inclined to believe that the scum are pushing this truth train because it's the easiest place to push and get support on.

Name them?

• N
• D
• math

Runners up are Nauci and Dunnstral.

[Blair]

Your solve is:

{NDMath | Nauci / Dunnstral}

Aren't Nauci and Dunnstral both pushing NDMath? How confident are you that one of them is bussing? Which one is more likely to be a bus and why?

[Glitch]

Your solve is:

{NDMath | Nauci / Dunnstral}

Aren't Nauci and Dunnstral both pushing NDMath? How confident are you that one of them is bussing? Which one is more likely to be a bus and why?

This is probably going to annoy you and Looker once again. I promise I don't pull out the wiki like a handbook manual but there have been a few things guiding my play, and this is one of them. xD

Do not fool yourself into thinking you can call the scumteam, especially before anyone has flipped scum. Don't bother with trying to draw connections between players until one of them is dead. It's tempting! but futile.

I have not been trying to speculate on who could be playing together as a team but who is individually scummy. As soon as someone flips scum, then by all means, I'll check out their relationships with other players to see what it indicates, but it's been my understanding that trying to link two unflipped players together is not the most solid strategy. Of course if there is something clear we want to address it, but putting it together with two unflipped players doesn't seem to be smart.

Regardless, both Nauci and Dunnstral's "pushes" against NDmath have been lacking. Nauci's more than Dunnstral's. I could see both of them as a bus but moreso Nauci's. Looker is on my radar but only by PoE. I still find him so hard to sort. He's closest to town out of the four possibilities I narrowed it down to for scum. Truth's claim revocation and how he has handled it since then has me convinced he's town. You're definitely town after the wild popo trap. I know I'm town. That leaves 4 others left and I have to narrow it down from there. By PoE it has to be NDMath and then Nauci or Dunnstral,

maaaybe

Looker.

[Blair]

I wouldn't have asked you to link them together if you hadn't indicated you believed the scum team was conspiring to lynch Truth.

[Glitch]

I am starting to think Blair might be mafia. She is ignoring me when I'm trying to convince her and get her to talk to me. She also keeps moving her lynch target around like she doesn't actually believe in what she's going for.

A few pages ago, she said people were racing to be at the bottom of her "townreads". I find this suspcious - why didn't she say "mafiareads" or "scumreads"? I think this might be her slipping in knowing that the two people she was talking about were both town.

And she is now voting and attacking my number 1 townread because they are defending me. I think she is trying to make us all suspicious of each other.

VOTE: Blair

Spoiler:

[Deimos27]

Official Vote Count 3.03

J. L. Mackie (1917-1981) was an Australian philosopher famous for his Error Theory in meta-ethics,
holding that all moral propositions are false (for the reason that they posit objective values, when no such values in fact exist).

---

Elimination

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to hammer.

NDMath

(2): Glitch, Dunnstral

Dunnstral

(1): NDMath

Nauci

(1): Looker

Glitch

(1): Blair

Blair

(1): Truth

Not Voting

(1): Nauci

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-07-17 21:08:51).

Mod notes:

• 

[/area]

[Looker]

To answer an example of a hard push -- I have tried multiple games to do this. My Second Push on Cat Scratch, my Push on Truth before he said the miller mason claim was false, and my Push on NDmath are examples of where I have tried hard to incorporate solid cases I have considered a hard push. I understand what you're saying, though, about not manufacturing faux aggression and I have never played or known anything about the author of that article -- I just thought it was widely accepted from being on the wiki. I get what you're saying though and am gonna try to adjust my analyses accordingly.

I'm not trying to get you to change your playstyle; I just felt it was necessary to defend my own. And, as far as the 'hard pushes', I was just trying to make sure I didn't miss anything, because you said I provided evidence but not accusation, and I wanted to see what that looked like to you. Based on what you've presented me, it looks like extra words and ad hominem. I'm curious, though; do you feel you've been getting these hard pushes and accusations from Nauci? You're saying that Nauci "clearly SR's Truth", but why do you feel this isn't backed up with a vote?

Spoiler:

Albert B. Rampage's tactics are not widely accepted, despite being on the wiki.

(Faux aggression is great, though, if you have the chutzpah to pull it off)

I guess that's my learning point today. I'll release my adherence to the article then and look forward to a post-game discussion where maybe I can get some pointers from the active and skilled players here.

Do I have to look back at your old games to see if you're actually as bad as you're saying you are? That this isn't some kind of a gimmick?

[post style=Looker]

Clever.

Spoiler:

Your solve is:

{NDMath | Nauci / Dunnstral}

Aren't Nauci and Dunnstral both pushing NDMath? How confident are you that one of them is bussing? Which one is more likely to be a bus and why?

This is probably going to annoy you and Looker once again. I promise I don't pull out the wiki like a handbook manual but there have been a few things guiding my play, and this is one of them. xD

I'm not annoyed by your reliance on your How To Town book.

[Nauci]

Nauci's 2049 didn't clear up to me who she thinks is scum - who is she going to vote?

Are you being serious with this

[Nauci]

And she is now voting and attacking my number 1 townread because they are defending me. I think she is trying to make us all suspicious of each other.

VOTE: Blair

Please stop

Just stop

[Blair]

Nauci, who are we canceling today?

Best answer is Glitch, but we can also play "Wrong answers only" if you prefer.

[Nauci]

What did you think about my comments on the early Glitch push to lynch popo?

[Blair]

What did you think about my comments on the early Glitch push to lynch popo?

Your comments on his post 710?

At the time of that post, Popo was at L-4 and Glitch's vote moved him to L-3. The basic premise of his case was "stop being a vote slave," which was an early shtick of Popo's from RVS. If Popo was going to be lynched Day 1, it wasn't going to be for that - especially since it's a very easy behavior for Popo to fix (which he did).

I can see it coming from scum who A.) wanted to slide into a wagon on his partner in the "Goldilocks Zone" (dead center of the wagon), or even B.) coaching his partner to sober up and clean up his play.

It doesn't look like a town-exclusive push to me.

[Nauci]

That's totally fair.

Question though: Do you really scumread Glitch more than NDMath? I keep feeling like NDM's wall posts were a bunch of pretty unsubstantial side comments or questions in response to bits of the game he quoted, and then announcing some reads. Like GL mentioned at the beginning, I just don't see any cohesive narratives or insight into his thought processes. I feel like I am able to follow Glitch's thought processes quite a it more in his posts. Neither seem to have the kind of real time interaction which would help me feel confident about any reads I make about them though.

Also, I keep feeling like I might have a grasp on Looker's posts but whenever I do, he says something that completely throws me for a loop (e.g., 2087).

[Blair]

I also find NDMath scummy.

And Looker, a little. Honestly Looker is frustrating because he never interacts with anyone, he only passively interacts with the thread, reacting to events long after they've transpired. Every Looker post feels like a "catch up" post. I can't really draw any conclusions from that, though, because he always plays that way, as far as I can tell.

Glitch, I've already explained my thoughts.

Dunnstral, I've already explained why he could be scum.

Truth, I don't think I need to revisit why he could be scum AGAIN.

Nauci, I'm struggling to read because I feel like I'm getting a lot less content from than I'm accustomed to. Which could also be scummy, because it's a lot easier to be aloof scum.

I'm scumreading the entire playerlist. I have no real town reads to speak of.

But Glitch I've caught arguing in bad faith more than once, and at least once it looked down right intentional, so he's my preference at the moment.

[Nauci]

And Looker, a little. Honestly Looker is frustrating because he never interacts with anyone, he only passively interacts with the thread, reacting to events long after they've transpired. Every Looker post feels like a "catch up" post. I can't really draw any conclusions from that, though, because he always plays that way, as far as I can tell.

Can you sanity check me here that Looker saying he has no idea who I scumread right now is a sign of insanity or illiteracy

[Blair]

I agree that it was 1,000% obvious who you were scumreading.

Upon reflection, I concluded he was probably just being obtuse because he wanted you to go on the record with a precise list of scum reads.

At least, I hope that's what he was doing.

[Blair]

The trouble is, Truth is either scum or flashing-neon-light-wagon-bait. I really don't want him in LyLo (or whatever we're calling it now) for that reason. So it's really important that we either eliminate Truth today, or eliminate scum today so I can eliminate Truth tonight without rolling the dice on the entire game in the process.

[Nauci]

I actually like CSF vs NDMath for today, so if anyone wants to help me make CSF a top-two wagon that'd be swell!

Sheep me!

I would prefer this over NDmath. I am not opposed to a lynch on NDmath but Cat Scratch would be a better choice in this event. I've been planning to come in here and make a case against Cat Scratch but haven't gotten around to it. I'll make my case here and join you on the wagon.

Candy Shop, Cat Scratch, osuka, and maybe Nauci are on my scum radar.

Why am I on your scum radar?

There was literally zero progression from scumreading popo to scumreading me.

I still have a scum lean on po but when the push against him from the group seemed to dissipate and the desire to lynch disappeared from the town, it was time to move my vote to somewhere it can be used elsewhere to do more. I also have been working through a re-read of the game the last few days and that's where my updated SRs came from. I'm a big fan of wagons and think it's lazy playing to target people because they jump on a wagon. If you jump on a wagon without giving good and solid reasons or just paraphrasing what someone else said then sure, that's fine to make you raise an eyebrow. But pressure gives results and I like to push and build wagons. And I'll give you my honest thoughts in the process. If you scum read me for it, that's fine, that just gives more data for us to eval when you push me for pushing someone else.

My case against you goes further than Blair's though. My main problem with your play is your dramatic shift in playstyle after pressure hits you.

• Page 6 - Enter Cat Scratch, short winded and little contribution. Whatever, it's early.
  
• Page 9 - Posts are all literally useless
  
• Page 11 - 274 useless
  
• Page 12 - Just lazy and useless, TvT reads osuka vs LQ
  
• Page 16 - Once again, no meat to you posts, just shallow and useless
  
• Page 20 - TR me but literally no reasons
  
• Page 21 - Your lack of substantive contribution 21 pages in is astounding
  
• Page 22 - 537 is lazy, 549 is so scummy. Just a straight up dodge and push back on popo for his vote on you
  
• Page 23 - popo announces you as his top SR and calls you on your trash ISO as listed above, then a noticeable change in playstyle begins. Uptick in posting and content begins as seen in the rest of 23, which is partially because you're discussing this with popo and answering reads on you, but this is maintained throughout the rest of the game.
  
• Page 25 - You suddenly have stopped spamming shallow questions and coasting content as you did up to p23 and then jump to Nauci. Scummy. Play lazy all game, pressure is on you, flip over to Nauci with mediocre reasoning at best (609)
  
• Page 29 - You defend your Nauci push with a weak ass argument, no quotes, no supports, just saying she doesn't think hard enough but you'd like to see where she ends up (scum wishy washiness, leaving yourself an easy out or an easy way to stay on her)

TL;DR version:
23 pages of lazy and non-contributive posts until you're called out, at which point you ramp up your post volume and make a weak shift from voting the guy who is SR'ing you to a weak argument for Nauci.

Did you ramp up your posts because you realized that you couldn't fly under the radar as silent anymore once popo called you on it? Your change to Nauci feels like crap just trying to get po to not be so laser focused in on you, so you jump to Nauci when you don't even have that solid of an argument there.

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

I'd be okay with NDmath but honestly CSF is much scummier when you look back over the progression of the game.

Why does lazy = Scum tho?

If your goal is to fly under the radar and not draw attention, hoping to just wait the day out until others can devour each other, then vague contribution with little commitment and very low content that doesn't help us to get anywhere helps accomplish that goal. Once he was called on that, everything changed. Looks like scum trying to lie low and then when caught is like "oh shit let me immediately unvote the person who is SR'ing me and move my vote to someone who I don't even have a good case for."

It felt like 1090 was a decent push/case that sounded towny, but after I saw 1095, I remembered that CSF had specifically prod dodged and was low activity but said it was because her SO broke their foot and they were really busy IRL. I normally wouldn't have taken this as that alarming because CSF wasn't posting much even before that happened, but it could be another data point for "bad faith" pushing.

[Dunnstral]

I'm townreading Nauci and Glitch, it's between NDmath, Truth, and Looker for me

[Nauci]

The trouble is, Truth is either scum or flashing-neon-light-wagon-bait. I really don't want him in LyLo (or whatever we're calling it now) for that reason. So it's really important that we either eliminate Truth today, or eliminate scum today so I can eliminate Truth tonight without rolling the dice on the entire game in the process.

I think that flipping Truth would give me a lot more to work with WRT Glitch, but I'm not sure if that illuminates anyone else (from your perspective it probably sheds light on me though).