Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[Porkens]

So you thought she was scum or not?

[Porkens]

I like BMs take on Reya

[72offsuit]

So you thought she was scum or not?

I had a slightly scummy ping off her whopping 3 posts.
I feel like a broken record.

[Porkens]

Aight moving on then.

[72offsuit]

Spoiler:

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Agreed.

VOTE: Blopp

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

23 - dat smiley face --- bad overly friendly/buddy-buddy vibe.
LAMIST - "Lets move out of RVS" with 0 game-related content

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

LAMIST. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote... lol. Feels like a forced post.

-0.5 Gangrenous Limb

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

It's page 3. What are you expecting?

Valid point but obviously he had multiple leans. Do you feel they were forced 72? Like he felt pressured to answer so he did?

Yes. Names 2 and a half scumleans in 69 feels like a blurted out response.

By 181 Raya has 4 townleans/reads, which feels like way too many from a town PoV at this stage of the game.

The Homura townread is the sort of read I make as scum on my scumbuddy. "Similar thoughts to myself" --> its the sort of statement, which you cant really test the veracity of.

Dumps me in as a null, still doesnt explain how my actions further scum agenda, or why someone of a scum mindset makes aforementioned plays.
If genuinely believes that my RQS is active lurking filler, then why am I not a scumread?

If I was to take a stab at the game solve, I would say Raya + Homura purely off that reads list.

Why are you asking me for a read on lucky in the middle of your reads list?

I like to ask questions on players I'm unsure of. Sometimes I stick it in my readslist. My readslists are mostly just reference for myself. Could you answer please?

Isn't it Scummy for 72 to ask that?

How so?

Why aks that? Never heard or seen that it is or should be Scummy to ask a question in the middle of a readslist. Like, it's totally something I can see Scum asking to try and look like they are Scum hunting, but not something I can really see Town asking that thinking, "Hmm, seems pretty out of the ordinary you ask a question mid RL. I bet if I ask them why they did that they couldn't come up with an answer if they are Scum." Yeah, not really seeing that coming from Town. Unless 72 has a gob of experience, but even then there are way better things to talk about than something that doesn't really seem Scummy inherently. 72's follow up doesn't really look good either.

72 has seemed evasive. But I'm not sure what to make of that

Can you post specifically in which posts I was evasive?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

Most cases D1 are reachy but Lucky's case on Blopp is beyond reachy. I mean look at the case I just posted and tell me how that's a good case. And another concern is usually reachy D1 cases are used to create more discussion (mainly from the player being cased) so we can later get better reads and make better cases. But in this case Blopp isn't here to talk and Lucky keeps pushing her. Lucky isn't playing to get more info. Lucky is playing to get a lynch.

I will respond to your readlist post next. I NEED to respond to this first. Is case on Blopp was from what 2 pages worth of posts? Wouldn't that have to be reachy? Do I agree it's a good case? Weird yes but not really screaming confirmed scum for me and thus my vote is not on Blopp. For an elimation to be made 5 players have to agree it's a good enough case to do so. If an elimation were to occur based on that it would be so telling for the rest of the game. Making a case on a player might not get info on the player ryou are pushing but can give Intel on other players in the wagon. Why did they join the wagon? Did they explain themselves well. If it was bad reasoning, what purpose did they have joining that wagon? Miselimnatiin or bad play? So much can be told by these situations.

Overall it has provided discussion to a slow early game and thus has actually been a very beneficial wagon.

I agree with this but it would be much more beneficial to push a player that's active. You would get much more info from that. And also I don't like how Lucky seems to have 0 interest in Blopp being replaced. He just wants Blopp lynched and doesn't appear to care about whether or not Blopp actually is scum or care about getting more info that could help make that decision.

What gives you the impression LL "just wants Blopa lynched"?

I thought I was voting for raya

VOTE: raya

Vote Count 1.07

LuckyLuciano (4):

Homura, JamSV, Raya36

, LicketyQuickety

Blopp (2):

LuckyLuciano, 72offsuit

ClarkBar (1):

Blopp

Homura (1):

ClarkBar

Raya36 (1):

TheThirteenthJT

Not Voting (0):

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-11 13:52:07)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Seeking replacement for Blopp. Homura and ClarkBar have been prodded.

I would bet the farm there is AT LEAST one scum within Homura/Jam/Raya

Spoiler:

Raya, your positioning WRT Blopp is odd. I was okay with the sheep vote in 39 because you seemed genuinely interested in the case. Somewhere down the line the same case you found worth pushing you have decided is worth scumreading for having been pushed. 45 is odd in retrospect. You say that you won't move your vote from Blopp to Clark because you want to hear from Blopp, but you also concede that we're not going to get info out of Blopp's responses anymore because Clark addressed my case for her (47). If Blopp has had an out provided to her already, what's the point of keeping your vote on her?

Nice attempt at discrediting me. Not gonna work. I was interested in the case but when Blopp went MIA and no replacement was coming in the near future AND he got to L-1 I saw that the scumminess actually came from within the wagon. I did join the wagon to see what came of it just like I said and what came of it was I found out you're scum. As for Blopp having an out, taking my vote off was going to give much less info and I talked to Clark without using my vote and got responses that lead me to believe he is town. I did not abandon what I said about Clark and also did not abandon the wagon on Blopp at the same time. The point of keeping my vote is because the vote wasn't just to get a response to what you said. It was also for the reaction to a wagon.

67 is also really weird. Why is there a scumlean on me for not removing my vote on someone that I scumread and not a scumlean on the player who replaced in, put Blopp at E-1, and invited a quickhammer? It feels like Raya's setting up to push me later for this and doesn't feel at all like a genuine read. In 106 you call a 2-line post that I prefaced with "Perhaps it is a coincidence" in 63, "Bad and reachy." Why did you consider my speculation a case at the time? What sort of content did you expect 63 posts into the game that would push the game forward while not being, to some degree, "bad and reachy"? Further, in 67, you scumleaned me for not unvoting but said nothing about 63. Further, you keep calling my push reachy. What about being reachy is scummy? Do you believe that my goal D1 as town is to find an elimination target that has an >Random chance of being scum? Even if my stance on Blopp is reachy, do you not believe that it represents scum equity in the Blopp slot that is >Random? You yourself have continually scumread Blopp

the entire game

while simultaneously pushing me for scumreading her. Why do

you

scumread her? Your initial vote on the slot was a sheep vote, which you yourself admitted was only cast to "see where this goes." Blopp never responded, therefore it never went anywhere, yet you progressed into constantly calling her slot scummy while illustrating none of that progression publicly. And despite you insisting that I'm pushing a mislynch, you hold that you think her slot is scummy.

The difference is Jam was open and clearly stated it was L-1 and their intents etc. You came back and were quiet about it. I really don't see scum coming in, putting someone at L-1 and then inviting the mislynch. Maybe case wasn't the best word choice but I do consider anything with multiple reasons to scumread someone a case. You're nitpicking on wording. There's early game bad and reachy and then there's just bad and reachy and yours was bad. I don't see a town thought process, I see scum trying to make something up out of nothing. I don't see the problem with not saying anything about 63 then.. Reachy is scummy because scum are trying to make scumreads when they are informed and know they're scumreading town. That means they need to make up reasons for why that person is scum which can lead to reachiness. Yes I believe that's your goal as town. I no longer scumread Blopp. Thought I made that clear, sorry. Reactions from Blopp didn't go anywhere no, but the wagon is telling as well.

Why did you ask 72o if his thoughts of Blopp had changed at all in 148 when Blopp has been MIA since his initial vote? Why would his thoughts have changed, and why did you have a special interest in hearing his thoughts on the Blopp slot rather than others, like the slot you have been pushing: me? Your stance on Blopp honestly feels like you tried to distance early and are not awkwardly trying to defend her (anyone else hear the distant revving of a chainsaw) while maintaining your early, unexplained scumread on her to appear consistent. In 181 you have decided that the

only

reason Blopp is scummy is lack of content. This seems to be a deterioration in your read on her since your earlier scumlean on her 67. What reason did you have to scumlean Blopp in 67, and why did it disappear by 181. She hadn't been gone for long enough for lack of content to be a reason to scumlean her, and it was early enough in the game that other slots had just as little or less content. So please, educate me on your thought process here.

I forgot Blopp hadn't posted since then. His post was early game and I never referred back to see when Blopp's last post was. How is that even scummy...

But I'm not maintaining my scumread on her. I seriously think she's a mislynch and I said that you're pushing a mislynch several times which clearly means I'm townreading her. Keep in mind when reading my 181 that it was written during a reread. And in my reread I decided that you're likely scum and Blopp is town.

Let's move on to 182. You say that my case is scummy because I'm pushing a spot that isn't around to respond, but my case is premised on

why

that slot isn't around to respond. Do you believe it is possible that I believe in my reads? If so, why is my push scummy? Do you stop pushing a scumread because they leave the game or choose not to respond? Later on your argument against me more clearly becomes that you believe I'm pushing a miskick (218). How do you differentiate town pushing town from scum pushing town? What about my push on Blopp indicates that it is a push I would make as scum but wouldn't make as town? If you are still holding Blopp as scummy, how can my push so obviously be a miskick? I can only clearly be pushing a miskick if I'm pushing an obvtown slot, no? Please explain to me how you know I'm pushing a miskick on a slot you scumread.

Your push is scummy because you seem to want it lynched regardless of whether there is or is not a replacement. And your whole case is on the premise that they're not here but you're not considering the MANY other possible reasons for that and you're ignoring me when I ask you about them. I've already explained many times why your push seems like scum pushing town and not town pushing town. (bad case, reachy, not caring about the replacement, stated you'd want to lynch if the replacement claims VT, not considering other possibilities for being MIA, pushing someone who currently doesn't have a voice, etc)

On to 228. The first thing you do is appeal to authority with Homura. That's laughable because I have more experience than Homura, so if you are using experience as a reason to accept or deny my push, you should be taking my side. Moreover, it's not that I haven't considered other possibilities for Blopp flaking. It's that among all possible explanations, I believe that the explanations leading to scum!Blopp hold more equity than those leading to town!Blopp. I think the deletion of her avatar answers back

many, if not all

of the NAI explanations for her flaking, and when left with only scumAI and townAI explanations for a newbie dipping after getting immediate pressure from multiple players in response to a post they made, my experience leads me to believe that there are far more prevalent scumAI explanations than townAI. Further, you say in the same post that you don't find Blopp's behavior particularly AI. Again, explain to me your earlier scumread on Blopp if her behavior suddenly isn't AI.

You don't have experience in Newbie games on this site though. Your experience can not be compared in this context. Explain to me why Blopp couldn't have just came in, deleted her avatar with intent to get a new one, then just never did and siteflaked. Tell me why Blopp couldn't have just decided they want nothing to do with this site regardless of alignment and deleted their avatar and siteflaked. This is why I don't find it AI. You're telling me this player should be lynched regardless of what the replacement says (if they claim VT) when all you have is a flimsy case with several counter-arguments.

A particular line I feel warrants a response,

So basically what you're saying in that second line is unless Blopp slot is a power role you won't consider anything the replacement has to say and won't reconsider your read.

Yeah. That's pretty much what I'm saying. The goal D1 is always to find a slot that has a >Rand chance of being scum and voting there. The goal D1 is not to solve the game. If a slot with high scum equity claims VT, you eliminate them. You don't go searching through slots with lesser scum equity and get more claims, either outing a TPR or further limiting the pool of TPR for scum to choose from for their NK. It's called best practical play.

I do agree that once a player claims VT it's probably for the best to lynch them unless they suddenly become very obvtown, however your wording is making me think that even before the replacement claims anything you won't care about what they have to say. They'll only claim once they get to L-1 with intent, so what if that never happens?

I'm not 100% convinced Blopp is town. I just don't trust your case on her and I don't believe it to be a good case with good intentions. The more I believe you're pushing for a mislynch the more I believe Blopp is town though. And yes Blopp flipping town does give info but why should I push for a flip on Blopp when I'm sure you're scum pushing for a mislynch on Blopp.

Either you think I'm scum pushing for a miskick or you don't. If you are so convinced that I'm scum pushing for a miskick, why would you say that you are not 100% convinced Blopp is town. Even if it is a true statement, what compelled you to throw it out there. It feels a lot like building a safety net for Blopp being kicked, either today, or tomorrow if I were to be kicked today. At some point that slot

will

flip, and when it does you need to have already saved face, and this is part of you trying to do that.

Because I don't 100% know you're scum. I just really really think you are. If you're not then I wouldn't be 100% convinced Blopp is town. My basis for Blopp being town is you being scum and I don't do D1 associations during D1.

Also, anyone who doesn't read this as scum is a joke of a player,

If you're so happy with flipping town and you're actually town why not let us flip you. We'll get more info from that than Blopp's flip.

Just saying that it's inconsistent to be willing to flip town for info but be unwilling to flip yourself when that would give us even more info.

See bolded part ^
The "I forgot" line. It's scummy because this sort of play doesn't come from a town mindset. From what I gather Raya's scumread on LL appears to primarily revolve around his vote on Blopa. Town in general is more balanced and open to re-evaluate their reads as town does NOT know alignments. I think !TownRaya here, would focus more on Blopa's posting (or lack of), to follow-up on the veracity of their reads.

Thus, I think the "forgetting" that Blopa hasn;t posted since, as Raya has said here in 354
AND
Raya's questioning myself on the progress of my read on Blopa in [post]148[/post] , speaks volumes.


Need more votes on the Raya elimination locomotion.
Choo choo choo
Hop on board the Raya express, no ticket required to ride this train!

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

This is good and town thinking. Scum would likely choose a side I think even just lightly.

Another scummy post from Raya.

Why is BM's post "good and town thinking"?

Scum 101 tactic is to hedge bets, fence-sit and to simply wait and see where the chips fall, to see what vote is most advatageous for scumagenda, before making their play with more information available. Just like sitting on the button in poker - Last player to act has more information to make their move.

Looker
LicketyQuickety
JamS

Only 2 town-reads when from !town BM's PoV there are 7 other town?
Yeah nah. Scummy reads list.

It feels to me like his wagon got run up, he doesnt want town wasting town focussing on him, and doesnt care all that much about this game, so isnt that fussed about being night-killed.

I don't know where you're getting the don't care about the game vibe because those wall posts about me seemed like caring

Why are you disputing what I said when it's obvious my read on him was correct. He is replacing out is he not?
So unless you think I am EXACTLY scum-teamed-with-LL, why question my read?

Keep on digging your own grave Raya. *Dig Dig*

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Who is the "we" that you refer to in this post?

We as in town in general

I'd like you to be more specific. WHICH particular players in particular werer you referring to?

Raya's 428 is the scummiest post in this game. Please everyone take the time to follow this exchange.

Not only does he include himself in the "we" of town, which is independently scummy, but more importantly,

also does not specifically refer to the specific players that stated believed LL's claim was genuine.

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

No i didn;t recall any particular summation or any outstanding questions. Please post the post number. It's hard enough following the thread without links or a number. If its something you really want answered or responded to, the easier you make it, the more likely someone will do it.

It's the scummiest post, because not many people have actually come out and said they believed LL's claim was real, despite raya saying
"So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim"

Why didn;t raya just direct that towards me?
It gives me the impresssion raya knows I;m town and has extrapolated my view onto "town" in general.






The fact raya disappeared, after I challenged her, is pretty telling in its own right.

Spoiler:

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Townpoints for Clark - no reason to defend the newbie here as scum.

@Clark, you have a completed game. Homura has many completed games.

I'm singling out the easiest target with a 'case' which flatters to deceive.

If you want to move the game from RVS, why are you defending Blopp instead of seeing what comes of this?

Just piss off and let me bully the newbie

Also, do not go out of your way to explain the reasoning of others. You are not a God who can read minds, none of us are. Let them explain themselves.

Let them try and explain their way out of my largely bogus case on Page 2, or I'll pick on you instead?

No comment here on Clark towntell

What follows is a gross sequence of posts from Raya (viewer discretion advised):

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

Sheeping here is a bit yuck, especially having seen how weak case is, and Raya surely better player than that?

[...]I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to

get info

put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

what info? since when did it become anti-town to give your opinions on things as they arise? Aggression here towards Clark is odd, given Raya hasn't actually endorsed the case itself and appeared initially to be wagonning for the sake of wagonning. As above, Blopp was set up to fail here, and the pressure to silence dissenters from the easy mislynch is NAGL.

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

What did you want to hear from him?

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to

get out of a tough situation

by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Moreover, I don't like to see SE players giving bad advice to newbies, regardless of alignment.

No reason to townread/defend a newbie as scum?
This is so wrong its not funny. Pocketing newbies is scum 101. Literally the first page of the manual. Newbies in general are much more impressionable and tend to be easier to pocket.

Spoiler:

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

Fair!

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

It's that there were a few of them that seemed to be weird non-sequiters, but there were no votes or reads in them so I just shrugged. His posting since has been normal.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

They sure don't! Similar reads in what way?

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

Perceptive!

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

Because I think he's town. Talk to me about why you don't think he is!

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

Because I was asked to! And I'm sorry if it was underwhelming, but I

did

put a disclaimer at the top about that likelihood. Caveat emptor!

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

I think I've decided to ignore the "in my experience town/scum does..." stuff from here on out. The possible consequences of ignoring the sage advice of more experienced players be damned!

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

If you want me to ISO you just ask. No need to beat around the bush!

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

Ok! But I did claim intent to hammer on a player that I had yet to display any issue with at all. And I insinuated that my read on you (another player I haven't really discussed to that point) was dependent on an LL flip. So I'm sorry you found it a useless exercise, but I sure didn't.

@clark:
1. What do you think of BMs reads list?

2. Comparison TTJT to myself:
a) He wasnt on the blopp wagon but was ok with the wagon going ahead
b) scumreads and votes for raya with me
c) had the same scumteam of raya + homura

Do you think there is similarity here?

3. "Because I think he's town. Talk to me about why you don't think he is!"

Where did you get the notion that i think Jam was scummy?

4. OK. Can you post the post where u were asked to iso raya?

Post 456 is by far the biggest red flag for me. I feel that up to this point Clark was attempting to slowly turn on LL but this posts felt like such a jump it felt forced. Their attitude towards that slot changed from then on.

Agreed. Clark's take on LLs fake claim feels EXTREMELY opportunistic

Nobody tell him.

I hate not being in on a joke.

@FJ13: I'm sorry if it seems I'm contradicting myself. I feel like I'm not, but ok. Why would I say ok to somebody asking to wipe the slate clean? Why would I ignore things that happened in a game simply because there is a different player in the slot?

Scummy. Apologises for being scummy.

Riddle me this: why did 76 vote for bloop?

Ask 72. His reasons seem to be the same as LL's. The exception being that 72 never gave an opinion on the ART. How does that rub you?

Why did 72 change his vote? Why did 72 seem to not know where his vote was at that point in the game?

I knew i voted blopp, and i thought i had voted raya when i started scumreading her.
Nice shading here though.

How is this not scumhunting? Aren;t you going to look like a total tool if Raya/Clark are scum. Or maybe I'll look like a tool if they are town

[72offsuit]

You saying I'm not scum-hunting is a gross misrepresentation of my effort in this game.

[72offsuit]

Regardless or my or your alignment.

[72offsuit]

Sigh, that spoiler went awry, my entire posting sequence was meant to be spoilered.

[Porkens]

Is it fair to say 80% of that it focused on your reya read and/or defending yourself?

[Porkens]

Yeah spoilers can only be one deep

[Porkens]

You saying I'm not scum-hunting is a gross misrepresentation of my effort in this game.

I didn’t say you weren’t scumhunting

[72offsuit]

Is it fair to say 80% of that it focused on your reya read and/or defending yourself?

Where do i spend time defending myself?
It's probs 70% Raya, 20% Clark, 10% BM. Not counting-posts-wise, but just how I generally feel like I;ve invested time into

[72offsuit]

Clark tell me what’s up with reya.

72, where did you push scummy slots can you quote it or something?

Here ^

[72offsuit]

That's the impression i got.

[72offsuit]

What was your motivation behind the post?

[Porkens]

I’m just being difficult, thanks for playing along.

I’m about ten pages from the end of my second readthrough, and I’ll post an adjusted readslist

[Porkens]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

Clark, can you show me where 72 calls the bloop wagon garbage?

[Porkens]

Hey looker,

I’m as caught up as I’m gunna be. I read through last night after my initial post and before my last.

No not omgus at all, like I said I thought this slot was scum too. I give a smaaaaaal amount of weight to the blooper avatar theory and you haven’t posted much for me to read you. So the needle hasn’t moved much.

I got confused about who replaced who here. I thought looker replaced bloop when I made this post.

[Porkens]

Independent Reads (not based on possible pairings)

Town

TheThirteenthJT
JamSV
ClarkBar
Looker

To be determined

Lickety Quickety
72offsuit

Scum

Raya36
LuckyLuciano

My townbloc is strong, so should be able to move faster now!

How can you possibly have such a strong townread on looker right now?

[Porkens]

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

[ClarkBar]

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

UNVOTE: Porkens

I can't get into it right now. I'm tired. I just can't have you at E/C/W/L-1 overnight.

[Looker]

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?

I'm not lurky, you just have nothing better to do with your time. You made 72 posts in the course of a day. I have things to do, a job, and an occupation where I don't have access to my phone.

Spoiler:

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

Flip preferences: 29% Porkens | 20% JamSV | 16% Raya | 14% ThirteenthJT or LicketyQuick | 12% Battle Mage | 9% 72offsuit | 0% ClarkBar

---

I've been working longer hours so I'm more irritated by the time I get home. Sorry. LuckyLuciano is not a bad person. His fakeclaim and AtE are still scummy, though.

[Battle Mage]

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?

I'm not lurky, you just have nothing better to do with your time. You made 72 posts in the course of a day. I have things to do, a job, and an occupation where I don't have access to my phone.

preach brother! I'll be back with a vengeance tonight.

[72offsuit]

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?

I'm not lurky, you just have nothing better to do with your time. You made 72 posts in the course of a day. I have things to do, a job, and an occupation where I don't have access to my phone.

Spoiler:

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

Flip preferences: 29% Porkens | 20% JamSV | 16% Raya | 14% ThirteenthJT or LicketyQuick | 12% Battle Mage | 9% 72offsuit | 0% ClarkBar

---

I've been working longer hours so I'm more irritated by the time I get home. Sorry. LuckyLuciano is not a bad person. His fakeclaim and AtE are still scummy, though.

What are these %'s based on?
Why is Clark 0%?

[Nahdia]

...