Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[Nahdia]

Vote Count 2.02

ClarkBar (1):

72offsuit

JamSV (1):

Looker

Looker (1):

JamSV

Battle Mage (1):

ClarkBar

Not Voting (3):

Raya36, TheThirteenthJT, Battle Mage

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-07-18 19:24:03)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With seven players alive, it takes

four

to reach majority.

Mod Note:

Battle Mage is V/LA.

[Battle Mage]

BM may have also been worried that I investigated him overnight (and it was a very close call) and wanted to discredit any claim I made about his alignment. More reason to pin down if I had a PR, what it was, and hopefully discredit any claim I might make.

my theory was actually the complete opposite - I was pretty sure you

weren't

a PR and wanted to see if you would try and fakeclaim one if you were under enough pressure, or if you would claim VT which would get you some extra towncred. Would be helpful to get explicit confirmation from others that nobody is disputing the claim (I'm not). I can give more detail behind the theory in that case as I won't be giving anything away.

[JamSV]

BM may have also been worried that I investigated him overnight (and it was a very close call) and wanted to discredit any claim I made about his alignment. More reason to pin down if I had a PR, what it was, and hopefully discredit any claim I might make.

my theory was actually the complete opposite - I was pretty sure you

weren't

a PR and wanted to see if you would try and fakeclaim one if you were under enough pressure, or if you would claim VT which would get you some extra towncred. Would be helpful to get explicit confirmation from others that nobody is disputing the claim (I'm not). I can give more detail behind the theory in that case as I won't be giving anything away.

I'm not disputing it.

[ClarkBar]

I need to re-evaluate the game (again).

So you weren't bread-crumbing a PR?

Now we have to believe that a player of BM's experience went 3/3 on townies and put one in a position where they felt it necessary to claim. If that's the case then I guess this:

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

has come to a disastrous end.

[Battle Mage]

I don't get why one would opt to do 13JT over others.

In hindsight BM was the right choice. This is my first time in this position, I made a choice and I stuck to it.

yeah especially in this game a N1 cop clear would have been helpful

[ClarkBar]

my theory was actually the complete opposite - I was pretty sure you

weren't

a PR and wanted to see if you would try and fakeclaim one if you were under enough pressure, or if you would claim VT which would get you some extra towncred.

So you pick a player that you had never put any pressure on and start a push against them to see what they claim, and a VT claim would be towncred? What? What kind of gambit is that? It makes no sense.

[ClarkBar]

Raya/Looker is the partner. If it is Jam then well fucking played, but I don't think it is.

[TheThirteenthJT]

Not 72?

[Battle Mage]

I need to re-evaluate the game (again).

So you weren't bread-crumbing a PR?

Now we have to believe that a player of BM's experience went 3/3 on townies and put one in a position where they felt it necessary to claim. If that's the case then I guess this:

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

has come to a disastrous end.

I was teasing it with the cop emoji only, but no I'm not a PR. I deliberately wanted you to claim because my theory (now presumably wrong) was that Jam and Raya were masons, based on their reaction to the LL shenanigans. Namely, they both conspicuously didn't buy the "I'm a PR" claim, which only really made sense if they were masons (and would know 100% it was BS), and they also hadn't been gunning for each other.

[ClarkBar]

Go read BM's reads/interactions with Raya and Looker. Read how he talks about them. Why is he defending Looker from Jam (who makes good points) and how is BM town-reading Raya all of a sudden?

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

If BM wins out his counter-claim look back at this. The partner will be in this mix. And I personally don't think it's Jam.

[ClarkBar]

I was teasing it with the cop emoji only, but no I'm not a PR. I deliberately wanted you to claim because my theory (now presumably wrong) was that Jam and Raya were masons, based on their reaction to the LL shenanigans. Namely, they both conspicuously didn't buy the "I'm a PR" claim, which only really made sense if they were masons (and would know 100% it was BS), and they also hadn't been gunning for each other.

So you were role-fishing instead of scum-hunting? Yeah, I believe that to be true.

[Battle Mage]

my theory was actually the complete opposite - I was pretty sure you

weren't

a PR and wanted to see if you would try and fakeclaim one if you were under enough pressure, or if you would claim VT which would get you some extra towncred.

So you pick a player that you had never put any pressure on and start a push against them to see what they claim, and a VT claim would be towncred? What? What kind of gambit is that? It makes no sense.

calm down dude, I get that you're pissed, but it wasn't pure randomness. As I said, my theory was that Jam and Raya were masons, which meant you had to be vanilla, but I thought if you were scum you might try and claim a PR to save yourself, and so you claiming vanilla would be a decent indicator you were more likely town. Obviously from Jam's reaction, my mason theory was wrong, so it didn't have much positive value at all.

[Battle Mage]

Go read BM's reads/interactions with Raya and Looker. Read how he talks about them. Why is he defending Looker from Jam (who makes good points) and how is BM town-reading Raya all of a sudden?

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

If BM wins out his counter-claim look back at this. The partner will be in this mix. And I personally don't think it's Jam.

I have literally just explained this. I thought Raya and Jam were masons, and Looker...is Looker.

What do you mean by "win out his counter-claim"? I haven't counter-claimed anything.

[Battle Mage]

I was teasing it with the cop emoji only, but no I'm not a PR. I deliberately wanted you to claim because my theory (now presumably wrong) was that Jam and Raya were masons, based on their reaction to the LL shenanigans. Namely, they both conspicuously didn't buy the "I'm a PR" claim, which only really made sense if they were masons (and would know 100% it was BS), and they also hadn't been gunning for each other.

So you were role-fishing instead of scum-hunting? Yeah, I believe that to be true.

I was scum-hunting by seeking to draw out a fakeclaim. You can bash me all you want, that's fine, but there was method to my madness.

[ClarkBar]

BM, let me get this straight: You pushed my wagon (and why me in particular?) in order to see if I would claim so that I would either claim VT and get town-cred, or I would claim a PR and Raya and Jam would have to out themselves in order to counter it. And you couldn't see how this little theory of yours could go badly? I don't believe that a player of your experience would do something so reckless with such flawed logic in a newbie game.

[ClarkBar]

yeah especially in this game a N1 cop clear would have been helpful

I mistook this as a counter-claim somehow. My bad.

[ClarkBar]

You can bash me all you want, that's fine, but there was method to my madness.

I'm not bashing you, I like you quite a bit and hope to be in future games with you. In this case though you are scum. I don't believe your little theory. I have provided the simpler explanation. I think that if people read through D2 again (it's not a lot) they will see where I'm coming from.

[TheThirteenthJT]

VOTE: raya

[TheThirteenthJT]

Parking my vote for the night.

[ClarkBar]

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

In what world is this not a cop soft-claim? You suggest you have privileged information and use a COP emoji at the end. It was bait, and I had to take it because enough people scum-read me and I got to E-1 fast.

[Battle Mage]

BM, let me get this straight: You pushed my wagon (and why me in particular?) in order to see if I would claim so that I would either claim VT and get town-cred, or I would claim a PR and Raya and Jam would have to out themselves in order to counter it. And you couldn't see how this little theory of yours could go badly? I don't believe that a player of your experience would do something so reckless with such flawed logic in a newbie game.

Why you: Well there were 3 options really. Probably you and TTJT would have been my top scumreads ahead of 72o, but TTJT is very capable of fakeclaiming as town which would have caused all manner of issues. I figured if you were town you'd claim vanilla, and if you didn't claim vanilla you would probably be scum (and obviously I'd get an indication from Jam/Raya reaction to confirm that was the case). It wouldn't rely on them outting themselves, as I could push and draw the attention on myself, and they could give subtle hints, and we'd have a good townblock but I could also draw the NK and get us into a strong position with 2 conf-towns in late game.

The logic isn't flawed, apart from presumably the fact that I was wrong about the masons thing, and then got unlucky with you being a Cop. Yes it's not a stellar game for me.

No idea what you think the motivation is for scum-BM to make that play (where the sole purpose is to townblock someone if they don't fakeclaim), although I can sympathise with you thinking it's dumb play from your perspective, and with the benefit of hindsight.

[Battle Mage]

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

In what world is this not a cop soft-claim? You suggest you have privileged information and use a COP emoji at the end. It was bait, and I had to take it because enough people scum-read me and I got to E-1 fast.

I was trying to:

A. Hint to them that I know they're masons so they don't have to explicitly counter-claim a PR claim or out themselves today unless necessary
B. Leave a crumb for a subsequent day in case I died tonight and it could be helpful to them in LyLo that I was vouching for that pairing.
C. Hint to scum that I might be a PR in order to draw the NK tonight.

Yes I can understand you claiming, and you were right to do it.

[Battle Mage]

You can bash me all you want, that's fine, but there was method to my madness.

I'm not bashing you, I like you quite a bit and hope to be in future games with you. In this case though you are scum. I don't believe your little theory. I have provided the simpler explanation. I think that if people read through D2 again (it's not a lot) they will see where I'm coming from.

I like you too, and hopefully you don't take the lesson from this that I always completely suck as town.

I'm not scum here - I suggest you give some thought to how my play possibly makes more sense as scum than town, and I'm happy to discuss it. I've quite clearly crumbed what I was doing, and it's quite obvious I did NOT think you were the cop, and I thought Raya and Jam were masons (which incidentally I've been crumbing since Day 1).

[Battle Mage]

if no cc, this means 2 scum in:

Raya
Looker
72o
Jam

[ClarkBar]

Why you: Well there were 3 options really. Probably you and TTJT would have been my top scumreads ahead of 72o

You pretty much town-read me all D1 and then all of a sudden I'm in your top two scum candidates?

TTJT is very capable of fakeclaiming as town which would have caused all manner of issues.

I'm offended at the suggestion that scum!me would not be capable of a similar fakeclaim.

I figured if you were town you'd claim vanilla, and if you didn't claim vanilla you would probably be scum

So, the thought of me possibly being a PR never crossed your mind? The potential risk of outing a PR (or two) in this gambit wasn't at all a concern?

(and obviously I'd get an indication from Jam/Raya reaction to confirm that was the case). It wouldn't rely on them outting themselves, as I could push and draw the attention on myself, and they could give subtle hints, and we'd have a good townblock but I could also draw the NK and get us into a strong position with 2 conf-towns in late game.

This bit is so convoluted and reachy it verges on the embarrassing. I love you BM, but this is some real nonsense.

No idea what you think the motivation is for scum-BM to make that play (where the sole purpose is to townblock someone if they don't fakeclaim), although I can sympathise with you thinking it's dumb play from your perspective, and with the benefit of hindsight.

I've already explained what your scum-motives were. You're smart and experienced, and something about the way I engaged at the top of D2 pinged you that I might be a PR. That's a problem for scum: maybe I'm a cop and investigated you or your partner? And so your read of me all of a sudden changed and you built a wagon on me based on lame reasoning. You introduced the idea of a theory and breadcrumbed a PR of your own for the purpose of discrediting me in case I did in fact claim a PR. What you didn't take into account is that I recognized this attempt early and called it out before you had the opportunity to counter-claim. And now you're reaching

hard

to spin it into some bizarre and confusing POE gambit.

I feel like Velma at the end of a Scooby-Doo episode explaining the plot and having all the pieces fit together nicely.