Smuggler's Port [Game Over]

[Titus]

I’ll grant that if you’re town it means +odds on maxwell scum

Although given that I think you’re just completely wrong on what we should do here I don’t think it’s out of whack that town would also be completely baffled by what you’re pushing atm

And like let’s say we investigated (maxwell, GL, hel)

Do you not see how that is probably losing if no tea is found?

On that one, yes. Hel hasn't outed themselves as Not!TD.

We should keep the investigation in people who have already slipped not!TD as it gives scum no further information. The problem is that Town are believing in a perfect world where that hasn't happened at all.

[Menalque]

The other reason why I have great doubts in you here is that you’ve been saying that I’ve slipped not-TD but again, to the extent that I have that’s been intentional and again, I assume (or hope at least) that every town has been trying to slip themselves not-TD and to slip themselves TD

So you “picking up” on those is meaningless

[Titus]

The other reason why I have great doubts in you here is that you’ve been saying that I’ve slipped not-TD but again, to the extent that I have that’s been intentional and again, I assume (or hope at least) that every town has been trying to slip themselves not-TD and to slip themselves TD

So you “picking up” on those is meaningless

Yeah, that's wifom and you're trying to get me to doubt myself because it makes you feel better. It's so frustrating too because most players haven't engaged in that wifom. Dressing up slips as wifom later doesn't work, particularly when no one has slipped TD.

[Menalque]

I’ve slipped TD like 3 times or something, you just didn’t see it...

[Titus]

I’ve slipped TD like 3 times or something, you just didn’t see it...

Smh. They must not have been good slips then if you feel you actually did.

[Menalque]

I mean they were reasonably subtle, yes... because I’m not the sort of player who as TD would obviously slip it as wifom

I would slip it like I’d slip it as vt, which is to say, subtly

[GuiltyLion]

maxwell, I declared notscience as scum of the 3 right away, but never voted or made a show of pushing him. That's a lot of easy towncred passed up if I'm scum. Your argument is weak.

this is really scummy

"I passed up the chance for towncred by bussing my buddy as scum, therefore I'm town"?

there's easy explanations for why scum!you would "pass up" that towncred - in the ideal world notscience would not be executed D2, and you would rather wait and see if town would land on executing Datisi/Moment instead. While still having the exact post showing your suspicion of notscience around for when people went to look at associatives later. Also, some people just have a hard time convincingly bussing because they know they'd feel more uncertain as town and they struggle to project an authentic scumread from town.

Further, this is kinda missing/reframing the point Maxwell was saying. Maxwell wasn't talking about your play on D2 being scummy - I think most of us kinda felt like notscience was the right execution pretty quickly and then just spent time partner hunting and arguing about the pool. Maxwell's point was rather that as of late D1, you had spoken with notscience conversationally, not really committed to a firm town/scumread either way, but then on D2 you immediately called notscience scum. It doesn't feel like town organically developing a scumread on notscience, it looks more like you avoided commenting on him on D1 when you didn't need to but then felt obligated to declare him scum immediately on D2 bc you knew it was a red flip if he was executed that day.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Hel

I really like maxwell's post 2093. I've been rereading through D1 and I find myself strongly agreeing with all of maxwell's points and conclusions.

[Menalque]

Hey GL, what do you think about umlaut?

[GuiltyLion]

I think a lot of the stuff I was feeling off with Umlaut was dependent on notscience being town, overall I'd say Umlaut is pretty solidly not buddies with notscience - votes him early in 524 and doubles down in 587 and 589 while pushing maxwell to give a read on notscience, he quite directly calls to execute notscience over Maki late D1 in 1256, and then reverses immediately in 1257 - I don't think scum fakes that waffley back-and-forth I think they're more likely to decide their 'stance' and commit to it. And when I challenged him on his 1257 (bc again, I was thinking town!notscience -> scum!Umlaut), he backtracked again in 1365 in a way that feels authentic as well.

also while I disagreed entirely with his NK15-notsci buddies take, the way he riffed on NK15 throughout D1 and D2 feels consistent in a genuine way, I get the sense that it was a real opinion he held rather than one he was shaping based on agenda and feedback.

[Menalque]

What do you think of my (ali, maxwell, GL, hel) scumpool/the logic behind it?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not really following the logic behind Ali redflip means third scum is GL/Maxwell, nor why you think Hel is townie in general, I think Hel's interactions with notsci are notably bad and her response to Maxwell even worse. But that said I do agree that from a neutral perspective umlaut/username are v likely town so I see how you arrive at the four of us.

I'm usually bad at reading Titus but I've thought she was town all game, and my first take on her doubling/tripling down on investigating a new pool today is coming from town who's primary concern is guaranteeing another scum execution and is not worried about how scummy it looks. I'd definitely have to revisit her again if I knew there wasn't any scum in Ali/Hel but right now I think both of them are much better odds of scum than Titus so I haven't felt worried about her yet.

[GuiltyLion]

whose* damnit

[Menalque]

We don’t need a third scum, the logic is that ali!green implies scum in (GL, maxwell)

[Menalque]

Game ends with 2 scumflips

[Menalque]

So if umlaut is a town CW to scum!notsci then it makes sense to me that there’s scum on the umlaut wagon

If we flip the scum on that wagon we win so long as scum haven’t caught the TD

[GuiltyLion]

ah based on 1.9? I see, I think that makes sense. I'm 100% fine with Ali being an execution candidate, in fact I kinda think I just now associative-logicked my way to Ali being scum because:

- umlaut/username/titus prob town
- Based on today, I kinda doubt Hel/Maxwell as S-S, there's no need to distance from each other like that really
- Ali town likely means at least one scum in {Maxwell, GL}
- I'm not scum

[GuiltyLion]

unless Datisi/Moment has another scum but I agree that seems unlikely and we should use our investigation tonight to cover that scenario anyways

[GuiltyLion]

also if Datisi town and Menalque town then Alisae was probably buddying me early D1 and I fell for it like always

[Radical Rat]

radical, you read like you're confbiasing and tunnelled. like, you're talking about how you'd as scum definitely want to hide on the same ship as your buddy while then immediately saying you know that can't be the case here when we weren't the ones choosing to get on the ship. then followed by "oh but what if they actually weren't bussing FOR THE WIFOM"

do you have any Actual Reasons to think there's scum in me/moment?

Actually, I think I'm the opposite of confbiased here. It's not that I necessarily scumread either of you, and indeed I do not have much in the way of "actual" reasons, though that's partially because I haven't gone ISO digging, which I would do on a guilTea result to make sure we execute the right one.

The reason I want to reinvestigate you two (and investigate NK for the first time) so much is because you're all slots that could plausibly be Scum, but have been assumed to be Town anyway. We have the means to clear you, we know none of you are TD beyond reasonable doubt, whereas the other slips Titus mentions very well could have been manufactured. Doubtful, but the possibility is there.

[Menalque]

Cool

Okay, so unless titus has a compelling reason for there being no scum on the umlaut wagon I think we can all get on board with icon choosing between (maxwell, ali) today, reinvestigating (datisi, moment, maybe nk15) then tomorrow we execute the other in (ali, maxwell) if it’s not GG and then N4 we invest GL if the game isn’t over by that point?

[Radical Rat]

I am a mechanics expert. Redoing Datisi and moment is gamethrowing.

Talk me through this one.
I know you're good with mechanics, but this really seems like a stretch to me. The investigation we put on them before has been rendered meaningless by notscience's scumflip. As of now, we know absolutely nothing about their alignment, mechanically speaking, but we do know that neither of them can be the TD unless Iconeum was absurdly confident in there being real scum in the pool as well, which is.... unlikely, to say the least. Pretty sure scum won't be guessing there at any rate.
Mechanically speaking, how is rechecking them any different from checking a new pool, assuming you're correct about their slips and that scum belives you?

[Radical Rat]

Cool

Okay, so unless titus has a compelling reason for there being no scum on the umlaut wagon I think we can all get on board with icon choosing between (maxwell, ali) today, reinvestigating (datisi, moment, maybe nk15) then tomorrow we execute the other in (ali, maxwell) if it’s not GG and then N4 we invest GL if the game isn’t over by that point?

This sounds good to me.

[GuiltyLion]

Okay, so unless titus has a compelling reason for there being no scum on the umlaut wagon I think we can all get on board with icon choosing between (maxwell, ali) today, reinvestigating (datisi, moment, maybe nk15) then tomorrow we execute the other in (ali, maxwell) if it’s not GG and then N4 we invest GL if the game isn’t over by that point?

eh, I think the D3 plan for today is fine, but on D4 we need Ico again to decide the execution and the investigation

[GuiltyLion]

like it can still be between me/Maxwell/Ali or whoever but we can't chart a predefined course like that, Ico needs choice to veto