Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[72offsuit]

Raya's push onto me was... not something I expected out of an SE slot. If a newbie made that push I wouldn't have scumread them.

Pedit: I didn't read the game to thoroughly after replacing out, but certainly everyone ignored my reads list I gave upon replacing out. I gave a PoE of {BM -> Raya -> Clark} with the condition that Clark is only scum if BM is town and Raya is scum, if not look to {Looker, Quick}. I also hard defended you. But even in death I was ignored. Oh well. It's probably my fault for being abrasive early on. A big part about being mafia is getting people to like you. Being good at reading people is one of the least important skills in this game.

I didnt ignore u. I voted for BM and brought up your TR of me.

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't mean you, I mean the playerlist at large. You were obvtown to me because Blopp was obvscum for committing a plethora of newbie tells and scum doesn't hard bus scum D1 in this setup.

Also, I want to give hella props to Porkens. My slot wasn't a fair one to have to replace into, and I think they did a phenomenal job with the hand they were dealt. Nothing but respect for them.

[Looker]

I wish we would've kicked LL before the replacement because the player in me wanted to give Porkens a fair chance. Sorry for being so desperate, Porkens. Payback

[Porkens]

No problem

I didn’t read too closely after being eliminated, but it seems you all had fun. Probs to BM for having the energy to spew all those words as scum.

[ClarkBar]

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

to guarantee his first win as scum

to guarantee his first win

his first win

Well 0-2 feels great. Kudos to Jam for sticking to his guns and doing his best to help town. Pretty much on the ball all game, well done.

It hurts that I too correctly identified the scum team only tell allow myself to be misdirected. I tried to not be too myopic and my regret for the Dunnstral vote is crushing.

I really thought town had a great chance here, Jam was objectively a ridiculous wagon that made no sense. Why ignore my FoS's from D2? But GG overall, I enjoyed this one.

[LuckyLuciano]

Don't pay attention to your record in mafia, Clark. It's pretty pointless. Mafia is a team game. Looking at records is an individualistic mindset. Just focus on the processes of correctly identifying scum as and being townread as mafia. If the results don't pan out, it's okay, as long as the process is correct. This game should be a clear example of how being correct in mafia doesn't actually have that large of an impact on who wins and who loses. There's so many other factors out of any one player's control.

[Nahdia]

yeah i think not focusing too much on your record is probably best for enjoying mafia in the long run. it can be a stressful game but if you just focus on yourself and your own improvement, it tends to be easier.

[Battle Mage]

No problem

I didn’t read too closely after being eliminated, but it seems you all had fun. Probs to BM for having the energy to spew all those words as scum.

haha yes, my typical scumplay is just to shamelessly lurk.

[LicketyQuickety]

Looking at records is an individualistic mindset.

Why is this bad?

[LuckyLuciano]

Because mafia is a team game? Connect the dots.

[Porkens]

I’d like to give a shoutout to those of you who rose above the toxicity of the early game and encourage everyone to try to avoid personal insults. You certainly can win through toxicity, but it takes away a lot of the fun.

[Looker]

No problem

I didn’t read too closely after being eliminated, but it seems you all had fun. Probs to BM for having the energy to spew all those words as scum.

haha yes, my typical scumplay is just to shamelessly lurk.

Spoiler:

[Battle Mage]

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

to guarantee his first win as scum

to guarantee his first win

his first win

Well 0-2 feels great. Kudos to Jam for sticking to his guns and doing his best to help town. Pretty much on the ball all game, well done.

It hurts that I too correctly identified the scum team only tell allow myself to be misdirected. I tried to not be too myopic and my regret for the Dunnstral vote is crushing.

I really thought town had a great chance here, Jam was objectively a ridiculous wagon that made no sense. Why ignore my FoS's from D2? But GG overall, I enjoyed this one.

I'm sorry man. I will say though, in all honesty, I thought you played really well here. You were thoughtful, didn't just tunnel-vision and ignore logic, and were able to flex your understanding of the game based on what actually happened. I reflected on it in the scum PT which you'll see, but basically I think the fact you withdrew from your case on me on Day 2 was a reflection of strength, rather than weakness. You were right I was scum, but not for the right reasons, and you actually thought about it and realised that. I didn't intentionally force you into a Cop claim, and I legitimately believed Jam and Raya were masons - the purpose of my gambit was just to earn towncred by trying to push people into fakeclaims and collude with the town PRs (which is really something I was doing as town in a game running in a parallel with this one)! Unfortunately the day ended before you could make the next step which was to realise there were lots of other perfectly valid arguments for me being scum, but I'm confident you would have got there given a bit more time. The best mafia players are those who can challenge their own assumptions - you won't always get it right, but more often than not you'll reap the benefits of playing a smart game.

Jam played a great game (as expected), although I felt it fell away a bit on the final day which was probably why he ended up getting eliminated by both other town players. The collaboration with 72offsuit and being too quick to openly trust him was probably a mistake (although he was correct, it was difficult to justify), and I felt his high-volume posting made it too easy for me to pick holes in. I stand by pretty much everything I said in thread about the case on Looker being weak, although I sympathise because it's always pretty hard to build a good case on Looker. To his credit, Looker saw it coming a mile off, and wanted to kill Jam on Night 1, which would have changed the game completely!

Some of the play from 72offsuit this game was better than I've ever seen from him. His detailed analysis posts on people were great - he basically had me spot on. I think town would have won this game if he'd kept up that approach, rather than going with weak (and provably untrue) accusations about me lurking or hiding my online status (which for clarity, were legitimately untrue, as I've never done that). I felt that his hammer on Day 2 should have always resulted in him being elimmed on the final day, and he seemed to be objectively the scummiest looking player at the end, despite being pretty obvtown on Day 1.

I really enjoyed being scum with Looker - probably my favourite scumbuddy I've had, and our PT was exactly what I think a mafia PT should be - just us joking around and actually trying to help each other, talking strategy etc. Most scumteams end up bickering and arguing in the PT because one person gets mad at how the other is playing.

Likewise, I thought town as a whole (in particular the newbies) played a sophisticated game, and was somewhat unlucky. My biggest mistake was the way I behaved towards Looker, which made it pretty obvious if I flipped scum that he was my partner. On Day 2, I thought we might be a bit stuffed, as momentum shifted against me with the Clark-claim.

An enjoyable game, so thanks!

[Battle Mage]

"Hey, man, I'm a doc that didn't protect the cop because I was busy. No, I didn't submit V/LA. No, I didn't ask for an extension. Just get off my back, alright??"

I don;t think comments like this are helpful.

Learn to win gracefully.

Jam and I had you pegged, don;t gloat.

I did love TTJT's doc gambit - he's a chip off the old block!

[Battle Mage]

What was the point of fake claiming doc? You were already clear, mafia knew you were lying because of their own roles (they know there's no doc in the setup because they don't have a roleblocker)

I guess it didn't harm the town, in any case

His plan was presumably to see who looked like they knew it was fake (because scum would know it was a lie and town would have no reason to think it was a lie).

It's a clever pro-town gambit, but hard to say whether he got the maximum value from it.

[Battle Mage]

Another game where lurkers and the obvscum win. Town has actual cases against scum but they are ignored. Oh well.

Don't think this is a fair reflection at all.

GG all. I appreciated seeing everyone playing hard this game, it's all you can ask for as a moderator really. TTJT, I'll say that the first time I mishammered in LYLO was pretty soulcrushing, but it's a rite of passage we all go through. You only get better!

Big ups to the mafia team for informing me when JamSV accidentally selfvoted in LYLO and asked me how I was going to handle it rather than just blitzing. Like I said, I think going forward I'll put a rule in my ruleset that votes inside broke quote tags won't be counted, but not having that rule to begin with made it an ambiguous situation and there are mods who would have ended the game there. So I appreciate them giving the opportunity to play it out.

In fairness, TTJT didn't mishammer, 72offsuit did (somehow!?).

And the Jam accidental self-vote was a really interesting situation. I think you made the right call as Mod to disallow it, but I think it was problematic to confirm that in the thread after the situation had already resolved itself. It would have been better for the game to leave that ambiguity there, and I'm never mad about Mods weighing in on something in the thread which can affect people's judgements about alignment. As I noted in the scum PT, your public response to the question from Jam and 72o which stated an unequivocal position illegitimately damaged my argument that I could have arguably hammered in that spot because of the ambiguity. It would have been a good thing to clarify after the game I think (as it was unlikely the situation would arise again).

I feel bad for Blopp. She seemed so excited to play here, and her spirit was crushed so quickly! I do wish she had told me she was flaking rather than just disappearing like that though and forcing me to go through prodding her and all. Perhaps next time I get newbies that roll goon I should provide some more encouragement.

On that note, also big thanks to everyone who replaced in.

I don't know if this applies to anyone here, but if any of you who were newbies haven't tried out the other queues, I encourage you to do so. I'm happy to answer questions about the other queues if you have any. Or anything else about the site, really. I hope to see you around in other games.

The mafia PT when we replaced in was hilarious, I think it was just Blopp and Homura going "shit, what do we do now?" If they come back to the site, they can claim an unbeaten record though, Looker and I definitely gave scum a better chance here.

Thanks again Nahdia, was a really good game!

[Battle Mage]

I did play horrible here at the end I apologize to the town for the let down. BM how could you do this to me. Heartbroken.

You didn't play horrible at all dude - you played thoughtfully and your actual final read was the right one - 72offsuit was objectively the scummiest player and the right lynch. I don't know how it ended up being Jam - he probably talked you into that too easily. There was no shame in losing like that - town was at a huge disadvantage going into the final day because of the 72off quickhammer. The big issue as a whole was that town frequently had correct reads on the scum, but couldn't translate that into a coherent case. Seriously, still baffled that 72 snap-voted me in LyLo based on an argument he knew was untrue - stuff like that just puts scum on the frontfoot. If you'd voted me over 72o I'd have been extraordinarily disappointed.

It's almost like newbie tells work. For the record, I replaced out not because I was being pressured but because both Quick and Looker replaced in.

I don't necessarily agree with this. I think the reality is that the newbie tells thing was dubious, and the way it was ultimately argued became completely self-defeating. There's a lesson here to be clinically accurate when making cases, because the factual inaccuracies with the Blopp case as it was conveyed really killed it.

I'm still really not sure why TTJT wanted to kick me so badly. I;d like to know so I can prevent whatever I did that seemed scummy. Thoughts?

Too many thoughts.

I'm actually completely amazed you managed to talk him out of it, into going for Jam instead.

[LuckyLuciano]

There were no factually inaccuracies in the Blopp case. There were just players who refused to believe that others may be more accurate than them on the Blopp read, or that others may be proposing a better framework for playing this particular setup.

[Nahdia]

Mafia Chat: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=83536

[Battle Mage]

There were no factually inaccuracies in the Blopp case. There were just players who refused to believe that others may be more accurate than them on the Blopp read, or that others may be proposing a better framework for playing this particular setup.

There were demonstrable factual inaccuracies about the Blopp case, pertaining to timing of posts. It really hurt the case because it looked like you were lying to paint a newbie in a bad light. It's not to say your tells were right or wrong, but the way they were presented was too easy to breakdown.

[Porkens]

Yeah, presentation is everything. You have to be able to play the politics as well as the reading part of the game to win.

[LuckyLuciano]

There were no factually inaccuracies in the Blopp case. There were just players who refused to believe that others may be more accurate than them on the Blopp read, or that others may be proposing a better framework for playing this particular setup.

There were demonstrable factual inaccuracies about the Blopp case, pertaining to timing of posts. It really hurt the case because it looked like you were lying to paint a newbie in a bad light. It's not to say your tells were right or wrong, but the way they were presented was too easy to breakdown.

Quote it. This is a straight lie.

[ClarkBar]

The mafia PT when we replaced in was hilarious, I think it was just Blopp and Homura going "shit, what do we do now?" If they come back to the site, they can claim an unbeaten record though, Looker and I definitely gave scum a better chance here.

Yeah, I'm 2 for 2 on newbie games where the scum team are highly experienced players that replace in. Probably good for learning purposes I suppose. Can't wait for that scum chat!

[Battle Mage]

There were no factually inaccuracies in the Blopp case. There were just players who refused to believe that others may be more accurate than them on the Blopp read, or that others may be proposing a better framework for playing this particular setup.

There were demonstrable factual inaccuracies about the Blopp case, pertaining to timing of posts. It really hurt the case because it looked like you were lying to paint a newbie in a bad light. It's not to say your tells were right or wrong, but the way they were presented was too easy to breakdown.

Quote it. This is a straight lie.

were you not following the game at the time? we literally talked about it at length, and it contributed to your slot being lynched.

the game has ended btw, so i ain't lying about shit

[LuckyLuciano]

Quote it, it's a straight lie.