Datisi's Mini Normal Review, July 2020

[implosion]

Subject: Normal Queue Thread (Players and Mods)

/in to mod a mini

here's the setup i'd like to run:

town:
1x town informed loyal cop (informed there is a mafia member with the rolestopper ability)
1x town activated commuter
1x town simple jailkeeper
1x town miller
6x VT

scum:
1x mafia informed disloyal rolestopper (informed there is a town informed loyal cop)
2x mafia goon

[implosion]

Primary: northsidegal
Secondary: Ircher

[Datisi]

hello!

so, my idea for the setup was, a loyal cop that can get innos but won't be sure about his guilties. i'm not sure about the information given to either side, because i'd like both for the cop to be aware that getting "no result" is not necessarily a guilty, and for the scum to know that there's other uses for their rolestopper than just rolestopping whoever they kill

i didn't want the jailkeeper to be able to interfere with the cop further, so i made him simple

and miller because i assume they're going to claim early and be more or less treated as town (that's my experience with millers, at least) (and partly because i think it's funny for the loyal cop to be able to get a guilty result)

[implosion]

Rolestoppers in normals block kills, so scum would never rolestop who they kill. I think the default use of a rolestopper for scum would typically be to rolestop a partner to make them ascetic to investigative roles, or rolestop as though they were town to set up a fakeclaim.

[Datisi]

...okay, i swear i knew that. why my brain decided to go "well if scum is a rolestopper, they can make their kill immune to their own rolestop" i don't know.

[northsidegal]

ego, more in-depth review later

activated commuter is just commuter

[Datisi]

huh, i thought commuting is passive, like being ascetic... oops.

[northsidegal]

alrighty so here i am

so as for millers being conftown or not, if we take a trip over to the mini normal archives (provided courtesy by yours truly) we can see that two out of the last five listed millers were lynched. there's a more recent example although it doesn't change the percentage (and that game also had two millers so it's probably an outlier), and i also notice that the fifth game back happened over two and a half years ago now. so i guess my conclusion here is that 1) miller isn't all that common of a role such that i think there's a

super

defined meta for it and 2) if we do consider there to be a defined meta, the meta would be roughly 50/50 on whether the miller is town or not.

might be ignoring information from theme games / micros in this but checking the normal archives was the first thing that came to mind and that's what came up.


onto the setup as a whole: i think i want to call this setup scumsided

by the fact

that it's really swingy depending on the loyal cop. simple jailkeeper doesn't seem very strong at all and so the cop is really the only strong TPR, and given that scum are informed that there is one that probably makes it slightly more likely for the cop to die / be forced to claim early on. that's not even really considering the extra weaknesses the cop has given the rolestopper

so yeah, i think this setup has a swing problem that translates into a balance problem (and maybe also a skew problem, but nobody except me cares about skew). one change that immediately comes to mind would be to remove the disloyal from the rolestopper and to change the informed to N1 or N2 informed. i think letting the mafia figure out how best to use the rolestopper would be better than sort of mechanically forcing them to use it optimally

still also probably think town needs some power beyond that but i might leave that up to you.

[northsidegal]

splitting up the informed and the rolestopper into two roles also slightly (but still probably relevantly) offers town something of better information

obviously if the informed rolestopper flipped that would be a lot of information at once but splitting it up gives more of a steady stream of information, i suppose? rather than all at once

let me know if this doesn't make any sense at all and i'll try to reword it

[Datisi]

(and that game also had two millers so it's probably an outlier)

fun fact, i actually played in that game

also, sorry, i don't know what skew is?

wouldn't removing the disloyal modifier make the game more scumsided since scum now has a way of half-avoiding the jailkeeper? or is the point that, if they do that, they're letting the cop be stronger so it's more +town?

i think i like the idea of mafia being informed on n1 or n2 rather than at the beginning of the game (also, would that information be received at the beginning of the night or at the end?)

also i'm fine splitting the mafia informed and the rolestopper, but that weakens the jailkeeper, no? would making it a full jailkeeper make it any better?

[northsidegal]

also, sorry, i don't know what skew is?

sorry, skew is the tendency for one faction to be able to make massive gains if they play well or get lucky, while the other faction does not have that ability.

roles can said to be skewed, like tracker and doctor being high-skew given the massive differences in outcomes depending on the skill of the player's targets, and cop and mason being relatively low-skew given that results are

relatively

similar regardless of the skill of the player

and a setup itself can be said to be high-skew or low-skew in a similar vein. in this regard skew is kind of similar to swing, but i think there's an important distinction. for instance, i would consider the newbie A1 setup cop + doc vs roleblocker to be a high-swing but relatively low-skew setup. high-swing given the huge differences in outcomes depending on the huge differences in outcomes depending on the survival of one PR (e.g. the doctor or the roleblocker dying D1 basically determines the game from there), low-skew because both factions have the ability to make big gains with good mechanical play.

being equally skewed isn't really a huge deal when balancing setups (to me, at least) because i consider almost all normal games to be skewed in town's favor just given the fact that perfect mechanical play from scum typically just looks like killing a PR every night whereas perfect mechanical play from town would be a town stomp almost every game. i think this fact is part of why some people (although i'm specifically thinking of ankamius) get upset at normal game balance when they're scum – most games are balanced around the fact that TPRs won't play perfectly, but a playerlist that randomly gets a lot of really good players as TPRs can end up with scum just getting eviscerated by night actions despite any dayplay.

wouldn't removing the disloyal modifier make the game more scumsided since scum now has a way of half-avoiding the jailkeeper? or is the point that, if they do that, they're letting the cop be stronger so it's more +town?

i think i like the idea of mafia being informed on n1 or n2 rather than at the beginning of the game (also, would that information be received at the beginning of the night or at the end?)

also i'm fine splitting the mafia informed and the rolestopper, but that weakens the jailkeeper, no? would making it a full jailkeeper make it any better?

i hadn't really considered the interaction between rolestopper and simple jailkeeper, although yeah i do think that in the end it ends up as more pro-town for scum to not be able to essentially frame someone as opposed to the possibility that they just avoid a jailkeeper block. yeah, i think making it a full jailkeeper is a good idea

i actually don't know

for certain

off the top of my head as to whether it's the start of the night or the end of the night. intuitively i would say the end of the night because i can't really think of any other effects that trigger at the start of the night other than private threads being unlocked, but i'll check previous games that used those roles to see what they did (as well as shout at

@implo

to help me)

[northsidegal]

okay having checked what i believe is the only other game to have used night X informed they had it as at the end of the night

[implosion]

end of the night would make the most sense to me as a standard mostly because that's when other abilities trigger.

[Datisi]

hm, i could've sworn i've somewhere seen a game where the night informed triggered at the beginning of the night, but i have no clue were i saw it or if that even was a normal game, so eh.

okay, so we're looking at

town:
1x town informed loyal cop (informed there is a mafia member with the rolestopper ability)
1x town jailkeeper
1x town commuter
1x town miller
6x VT

scum:
1x mafia rolestopper
1x mafia n1 informed (informed there is a town informed loyal cop)
1x mafia goon

does any of the information need to be changed or is it good as-is?

[northsidegal]

information seems good. i'm gonna say that this leans scumsided but not to an unpassable degree

so i'll wait a bit to hear ircher's thoughts

[Ircher]

Yeah, I think this setup is balanced enough to pass. I do believe that this setup is still rather swingy, and town's roles don't seem to cooperate well at all. The cop is really only good for innos as there are too many ways for the cop to get a false guilty. One nice thing about this setup is that the cop can clear a miller (since that's the only way a loyal cop can get a guilty in a normal game), so the miller is slightly stronger than it typically is.

[northsidegal]

thoughts on neighborizer miller?

[Datisi]

aren't town neighborizers rather weak roles who don't give much in Town's favour? (also, i'm eh on "basic" neighborizers...)

would making the rolestopper X-shot (3 maybe?) help?

[Datisi]

also, a question - if the town commuter doesn't send me anything in the night, is the "no action" supposed to be them commuting or not commuting?

[Ircher]

also, a question - if the town commuter doesn't send me anything in the night, is the "no action" supposed to be them commuting or not commuting?

It's an active role, so I would go with not commuting. (That's in line with how other roles that don't submit an action work.)

[northsidegal]

aren't town neighborizers rather weak roles who don't give much in Town's favour? (also, i'm eh on "basic" neighborizers...)

its not a very strong role but it has some potential for gambits and/or if it targets a TPR, nothing that

really

affects balance but still potential there

guess i just like the idea of adding some other fun thing onto the role because handing someone the "you rolled negative utility, good luck not getting killed" role PM might not be the most fun, so having something to do each night even if its not that strong would add to the fun factor. neighborizer was just the first that came to mind, could go with a mailman or something, or if you really feel like flexing the newest shiny toys that implosion has gracefully handed to us, you could make it a Checker

that would have the effect of allowing the miller to see if someone was rolestopped or not which seems like a cool interaction

[Datisi]

oh wait, checker is normal? i saw discussion about that role a bit back, and i thought it would fit nicely with this setup, but i design my setups by looking at the normal wiki page, and it's not there...

i'd honestly love to make the miller a checker too

[Datisi]

town:
1x town informed loyal cop (informed there is a mafia member with the rolestopper ability)
1x town jailkeeper
1x town commuter
1x town checker miller
6x VT

scum:
1x mafia rolestopper
1x mafia n1 informed (informed there is a town informed loyal cop)
1x mafia goon

i enabled daytalk by default.
i'm not sure about default multitasking?

Spoiler: role PMs

vanilla townie

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

• You have no special abilities, but you have your voice and your vote.

You win when there are no longer any threats to Town and at least one Town player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name.

town informed loyal cop

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Town Informed Loyal Cop

.

Abilities:

• Cop:
  Each Night phase, you may target one player in the game to investigate them. Assuming no interference with your action, you will receive a result of "
  Town
  ", "
  Anti-Town
  ", or "
  No Result
  ".
  
• Loyal:
  Your Night action will fail if used on a player that does not belong to your faction.
  
• Informed:
  (Passive)
  You know that there is a Mafia member with the Rolestopper ability.

You win when there are no longer any threats to Town and at least one Town player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name.

[Game PMs: "

Playername

is

Town

.", "

Playername

is

anti-Town

.", "You receive

No Result

."

town jailkeeper

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Town Jailkeeper

.

Abilities:

• Each Night phase, you may target one player in the game. Assuming no interference with your action, you will simultaneously roleblock that player, and protect that player from any number of nightkills.

You win when there are no longer any threats to Town and at least one Town player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name.

town commuter

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Town Commuter

.

Abilities:

• Each Night phase, you may choose if you want to commute. If you are commuting, you are untargettable by any Night actions that Night.

You win when there are no longer any threats to Town and at least one Town player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name.

town checker miller

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Town Checker Miller

.

Abilities:

• Checker:
  Each Night phase, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will be informed that your action succeeded (but your action has no other effect).
  
• Miller:
  (Passive)
  You will return a guilty result if investigated by a Cop.

You win when there are no longer any threats to Town and at least one Town player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name.

[Game PMs: "You checked

Playername

.", "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result."]

mafia rolestopper

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Mafia Rolestopper

.

Factional:

• You are a member of the Mafia, along with
  Playername
  , who is a
  Mafia Night 1 Informed
  , and
  Playername
  , who is a
  Mafia Goon

  .
  
  
• Once every Night, a living member of the Mafia may submit a factional kill action.
  
• You may talk with your living teammates in the Mafia Private Topic, located here. You may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

Abilities:

• Each Night phase, you may target one player in the game. Assuming no interference with your action, any other Night actions won't be able to affect them in any way.

You win when there are no longer any threats to the Mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occuring) and at least one Mafia player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name or by posting in your PT.

mafia night 1 informed

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Mafia Night 1 Informed

.

Factional:

• You are a member of the Mafia, along with
  Playername
  , who is a
  Mafia Rolestopper
  , and
  Playername
  , who is a
  Mafia Goon

  .
  
  
• Once every Night, a living member of the Mafia may submit a factional kill action.
  
• You may talk with your living teammates in the Mafia Private Topic, located here. You may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

Abilities:

• You will receive information at the end of Night 1.

You win when there are no longer any threats to the Mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occuring) and at least one Mafia player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name or by posting in your PT.

[Game PM: "You know that there is a Town Informed Loyal Cop in the game.]

mafia goon

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Mafia Goon

.

Factional:

• You are a member of the Mafia, along with
  Playername
  , who is a
  Mafia Rolestopper
  , and
  Playername
  , who is a
  Mafia Night 1 Informed
  .
  
• Once every Night, a living member of the Mafia may submit a factional kill action.
  
• You may talk with your living teammates in the Mafia Private Topic, located here. You may talk there at any time as long as you are alive.

Abilities:

• You have no special abilities, but you have your voice and your vote.

You win when there are no longer any threats to the Mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occuring) and at least one Mafia player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name or by posting in your PT.

Spoiler: Ruleset

Rules

Shamelessly stolen

Inspired by Plotinus's ruleset.

important bit

• Days: 10 days, Nights: 48 hours.
  
• Majority executes.
  
• 36 hours before prod, 24 hours before replacement.
  
• Bah posts allowed. (limit: 1, free of game related content)
  
• Don’t be a dick.

1. Follow all site rules.
   
   
2. Mod colour
   – My mod colour is
   teal
   . You can use it if you want, just don't attempt to impersonate me.
   
3. Behaviour
   - Don’t be a dick. This is a heated game but toxicity will not be tolerated. Attack the play not the player. If your fellow players tell you to stop, you must stop. If you do not stop, I will tell you to stop. If you still do not stop, you will be force-replaced. Asking people to stop voting you or to stop scumhunting you entirely doesn't count for this rule and you may find yourself executed if you try it.
   
4. Don't talk about ongoing games
   - You may not talk to each other about this game outside of threads I have created for this purpose. You may not talk about other ongoing games in this thread.
   
5. Provable randomness
   - is against the rules. Saying that you rolled a dice is fine, using dice tags or random.org is not.
   
6. Cryptography
   - is forbidden. Breadcrumbing is okay.
   
7. Confirmation
   - You have about 48 hours to confirm your role and your alignment by PM. Game will start sooner if everyone confirms. Posting in a private topic counts as confirmation.
   
8. Days
   - Days last up to 10 real-life days. Extensions may or may not be granted if there are replacements, or if the circumstances call for it (for example, if the site was experiencing issues).
   
9. Activity
   - You must post at least once every 36 hours or I will Prod you. You then have 24 hours to post in the game thread or I will replace you. If you come back before I find a replacement, you can stay. Players can request me to prod somebody early. This will only count as an official prod if you don't post before you would have been due for a prod. If you haven't posted in the 24 hours before the thread is locked for night, you must reply to the night start PM or you will be replaced during the night.
   
10. Vacation/Limited Access
    - If you need to be absent for longer than this, you should declare
    V/LA
    in bold in the thread like this: [
    b]

    @Mod: I will be v/la until Thursday

    [
    /b]. While you are V/LA, you will be nudged once every 60 hours. Two nudges equals one prod. If you have not posted game advancing content in 5 days, regardless of V/LA status, you will be replaced.
    
11. Prodging
    - A naked "prod dodge" does not reset the prod timer. To avoid being prodded/replaced for inactivity, include some game advancing content in your prodges, such as "got prodded; xxxx is still scum."
    
12. Quoting
    - You may not quote (or copy paste) any private information into the thread, including your role PM and any mod communication.
    
13. Voting
    - Votes must be in bold in the format VOTE: Datisi or
    Vote: Datisi
    . Strong preference for using vote tags instead of bold tags. Unvotes are nice but not required. If I think it’s a vote, it’s a vote, no tricks. Type [
    v]Datisi[
    /v] to vote and [
    uv]Datisi[
    /uv] to unvote.
    
14. Execution
    - Days end early when a simple majority of players (50% of living players + 1 rounded down) vote to execute somebody. If a majority is not reached at deadline or if a majority of the players vote for no execution, the day will end without an execution. At evens, 50% is sufficient for no execution. It takes (100% of living players + 1) votes to execute the Moderator.
    
15. Twilight
    - Begins when a majority is reached and lasts until I lock the thread. You're still alive until I flip you so you can talk in any game threads you have access to until then, but no votes or unvotes will be counted.
    
16. Night
    - Night lasts at least 48 hours. The night phase can be shortened if every living player -- even those with no night actions -- agrees to it and if I'm not busy.
    
17. Action submissions
    - You may submit actions via PM (if town) or PT (if scum). If the actions are not submitted by the deadline then you do nothing. You can change your mind as many times as you like before the deadline.
    
18. Reminders
    - If I don't hear from you about your night actions, I'll PM you 24 hours before the deadline. This doesn't count as a prod. If I still don't hear from you, you will take no action.
    
19. Notes PT
    - Let me know if you want a private thread to store your thoughts and feedback for the other players. You may draft posts in your notes PT if the posts are clearly meant to be posted in the main thread. You definitely may not use the notes PT to demonstrate that you've had a town mindset in private all along; just put your town mindset in public to begin with and keep your notes to yourself.
    
20. Play to win
    - this particular game, not some future one, and keep it fun!
    
21. Setup Specific
    - Private Topics will be open at all times.

Sample Vanilla Townie role PM:

Spoiler:

vanilla townie

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

• You have no special abilities, but you have your voice and your vote.

You win when there are no longer any threats to Town and at least one Town player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name.

[northsidegal]

but i design my setups by looking at the normal wiki page, and it's not there...

i'm working on it atm, unfortunately the wheels of mafiascum bureaucracy are slow to turn

[northsidegal]

okay so i remembered talk about it but i just confirmed that implicit multitasking wasn't ever normalized as far as i know

in the cop role PM i feel like "no result" and "assuming no interference with your action" are kind of mutually exclusive. if you're going to include "no result" i'd remove the "no interference" part. would also personally change "does not belong to your faction" to "does not share your alignment". i dunno, feel like "faction" is sort of a weird term that you don't really see a lot

might also be like slightly more specific on the informed part – specifically, do you intend to inform the cop that it's one and only one person with a rolestopper ability? or should it be "at least one"? you don't actually have make this change if you don't want to really (probably doesn't matter), just trying to predict potential questions the recipient might ask

same thing for checker as i said for cop, wrt "assuming no interference". i also think that the result PM for checker should be more clear – the negative result is fine but the positive result should elaborate more, something as simple as "your action succeeded" would work.

i get that you got the rolestopper description from the wiki but i would personally word it something more like "All other night actions targeting that player will fail." you don't actually have to do this, this is just another more personal suggestion. i guess i just bring this up because this setup is like a perfect storm of having the potential to bring up these random weird role and NAR interactions – for instance, a strongman can go through a rolestopper but not a commuter, even though you wouldn't know that just from the description of the two.

rules seem fine, everything else seems good. i think the mafia wincon (really both, but especially the mafia's) is a little strange personally but again, not something you have to change