Newbie 2019 | Game Over!

[GeorgeBailey]

Votecount 2.3

Porkens(3)

~ ItalianoVD(36), GeniusGamer(8), shellyc(64)

ItalianoVD(1)

~ Porkens(56)


Not Voting (3): MiniMegabyte(17), T-Bone(28), Redados(39)

With 7 alive it takes 4 to eliminate.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2020-08-03 18:27:08)

FLAVOR

[Redados]

I'd like to think that GeorgeBailey is taking all these pictures himself every time there's a vote count.

Me and T-Bone have ghost votes on Porkens. Maybe MM does too, I can't remember.

T-Bone, what is the best play for Porkens here as scum or as town?

[shellyc]

Ok, I'm going to read through that T-Bone and Porkens exchange and give my thoughts.

I feel like T-Bone should be the f4 elim though, at this point

[shellyc]

I’m not really trying to convince you, I’m trying to make sure they don’t give you an automatic pass on the hypothetical day 4.

Porkens, why are you so worried about the "hypothetical day 4" when your biggest SR is italiano

[shellyc]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

Italiano, what does this mean?

[Porkens]

I’m not really trying to convince you, I’m trying to make sure they don’t give you an automatic pass on the hypothetical day 4.

Porkens, why are you so worried about the "hypothetical day 4" when your biggest SR is italiano

It would be irresponsible of me to ignore the possibility that I’m wrong.

[Redados]

Ok, I'm going to read through that T-Bone and Porkens exchange and give my thoughts.

I feel like T-Bone should be the f4 elim though, at this point

Are you saying lim Porkens -> Italiano -> T-Bone?

[Redados]

Porkens is V/LA according to their profile.

[shellyc]

Redados, correct.

[ItalianoVD]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

Italiano, what does this mean?

It was for Porkens and it means what it says.

You can read the full interaction here:

934 936 937 939 940 941 943 944 945 946 947

[shellyc]

I agree that sometimes what Porkens has said has been erratic. For example, he thought my lack of paraphrasing was a scumtell.

I'm not sure he's as bad as your described though

[T-Bone]

...but aren't you voting for him?

If so...then why isn't he as bad as Italiano describes? If he is as bad as Italiano describes...then he's scum.

[Redados]

T-Bone, what is the best play for Porkens here as scum or as town?

T-Bone, can you answer this?

[T-Bone]

I'd say what he's doing now is he best play for both town!Porkens and scum!Porkens, in the sense of what he is posting. Best scum play is of course pretending to be town. With that said, usually the subtle differences between a town and scum game is what a player wants other players to do. Whereas a town player just wants other town players to help then lynch scum, a scum player wants to also influence the way things play out too. In that sense we didn't give scum!Porkens much of a chance to do that since we ran him up pretty quickly. So now scum!Porkens has to do what he is doing, namely present as if he is town and talk about scumhunting after his death. Porkens as a player is smart enough to know that defending yourself is not the pro-town thing to do.

Now, this presumes that Porkens is actually scum. To be honest, he'd do the same thing as town. He is playing the correct way a townie at E-1 should. town!Porkens still wins even if he gets eliminated, so of course he should continue to ask questions, give reads, etc. So then you have to ask yourself, does knowing this change your read? Does Porken's self awareness change your read? I do ask myself. Because my read on Porkens is part process of elimination, and part things that happened before he was forced into this narrow set of play that he has to do as either alignment.

I'd need something more specific if you want a specific answer. Otherwise we risk me just talking about my philosophy on how people play as scum and should play as scum.

[T-Bone]

In terms of scum play, recall why I initially scumread Micc. I did it because of the subtle manipulation he tried to craft with his reads. He said he had some strong scumreads on both Porkens and myself, but went after the low hanging fruit instead on a player he expressed a weaker read on. That was the entire basis for my scumread. It wasn't about the quality of his posting or the quality of his reads, it was about trying to manipulate the gamestate...by shying away from a miselimination on a player (me) that would have required more fight. Now, since Micc was replaced by Word we don't know what he would have done. But we know what Word did. First tried to discredit the read by committing to a scumread and vote on me upon entry. But then he also backed off because getting that elimination would have been harder too.

This is why I said, you will not find scum posts by ISOing. That's not me saying that no one should do it, you do what works for you. I'm saying that most posts are NAI. Even now, most of what Porkens is doing is NAI. He is never going to smoking gun ever confirm himself as town or scum. I'm the same way. When Porkens says that maybe I bussed Micc...he's absolutely right to say that because I am certainly capable of that long con. You're never going to be able to quote like half my ISO and go 'this is scum', 'this is scum', 'that is also scum', etc. in the same way I am not going to be able to do that for anyone else either. It's why on its face both my case on Micc/Word looked weak, and why even now the case on Porkens is weak as well. Strong cases are kinda a myth in mafia. That's why I opened day 2 not talking about anyone's scummy ISO, but asking about the nightkill. That I have narrowed it down to both Porkens, and yourself Red, is both a function of the game state, a function of my reads on other players, rather than any handful of posts in your ISO. If you're scum, you don't have that smoking gun set of posts either. But neither does Mini, Shelly, or Italiano either.

[Redados]

Thanks for explaining, that was really helpful. And you find Italiano less suspicious than me because he has towntold and I haven't?

[ItalianoVD]

I think she’s town based on the fact that Micc was scum and I believe you are his partner. Oops!

Huh? But you didn’t say that. You specifically said that you wouldn’t have scumread me if we had eliminated Shelly instead of Word. The way it looks to me is you couldn’t have possibly known that and wouldn’t have said that unless you are/were coming from a place that you know/knew she is/was town.

[ItalianoVD]

I agree that sometimes what Porkens has said has been erratic. For example, he thought my lack of paraphrasing was a scumtell.

I'm not sure he's as bad as your described though

That’s not necessarily erratic imo. That’s really just a read and that‘s nai. What’s erratic was him voting and pushing for you, but saying he didn’t know who the scum was when asked.

[shellyc]

If so...then why isn't he as bad as Italiano describes? If he is as bad as Italiano describes...then he's scum.

Erratic / unobservant / poor discernment is NAI, but not helpful to town.

[shellyc]

What’s erratic was him voting and pushing for you, but saying he didn’t know who the scum was when asked.

948 sounds like a scumslip though. You seem to know my alignment, which is only possible if you were mafia.

[shellyc]

This is why I said, you will not find scum posts by ISOing. That's not me saying that no one should do it, you do what works for you. I'm saying that most posts are NAI. Even now, most of what Porkens is doing is NAI. He is never going to smoking gun ever confirm himself as town or scum. I'm the same way. When Porkens says that maybe I bussed Micc...he's absolutely right to say that because I am certainly capable of that long con. You're never going to be able to quote like half my ISO and go 'this is scum', 'this is scum', 'that is also scum', etc. in the same way I am not going to be able to do that for anyone else either. It's why on its face both my case on Micc/Word looked weak, and why even now the case on Porkens is weak as well. Strong cases are kinda a myth in mafia. That's why I opened day 2 not talking about anyone's scummy ISO, but asking about the nightkill. That I have narrowed it down to both Porkens, and yourself Red, is both a function of the game state, a function of my reads on other players, rather than any handful of posts in your ISO. If you're scum, you don't have that smoking gun set of posts either. But neither does Mini, Shelly, or Italiano either.

So do you feel Italiano is town here, T-Bone

[shellyc]

Also as you said, there are no set of posts that are "scum posts". Being erratic could be bad / newbie town. The reason why my vote is on Porkens is partnership analysis, PoE, and nightkill analysis.

[GeorgeBailey]

GeniusGamer and MiniMegabyte have been prodded! If they do no post within (expired on 2020-08-01 00:35:50) I will start seeking replacements.

[MiniMegabyte]

Sorry about not being around much..

So where are we at there has been a lot of discussion but I don’t see any real results coming from it. From what I see the set in stone eliminations are going Porkens then Italiano. If say Italiano And Porkens are both town who would be next?

[shellyc]

Redados / T-Bone / You are the eliminations from my PoV (f4 situation), T-Bone is the proposed and probable elim for now