NoPowerOverMe's Mini Normal Review, July 2020

[implosion]

Here is my game setup:
Townx9: Innocent Child; Miller; 2 shot watcher; 1 shot cop; 1 shot doctor, Neighbor, 4xVT
Mafia:x3 Even Night Commuter, Neighborx2

Role PMs:

You are a

Innocent Child

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

You may PM the mod at any time to have him reveal your role to everyone in the game topic.

You are a

Miller

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

You appear mafia aligned in any investigation.

2 Shot Watcher
You are a

2 Shot Watcher

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

Twice during the game at night, you may target a player to be watched, thus discovering if that player was targeted in the same night phase and if somebody did who. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names(s) of the players.

Cop
You are a

1 shot Cop

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

Once per game at night, you may target a player to be inspected, thus discovering their alignment. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing either [Mafia] or [Not-Mafia].

Doctor
You are a

1 shot Doctor

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

Once per game at night you may target a player to be protected, this will protect them from one kill for one night. The targeted player is not informed that they were protected. You will not be informed if you protected the player from a kill.

You are a

Neighbor

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

You will have access to a seperate Private Topic that includes two other neighbors, PX and PY. Their alignment is not confirmed. The PT is located here.

Vanilla Townie
You are a

Vanilla Townie

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

You have no abilities, your strength is your vote and intellect.[/b]

You are an

Even Night Commuter

Win Conditions:

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Abilities:

You share a Private Topic with your fellow scum; [names]. The Private Topic is here.
You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.
On even numbered nights you "leave town", making you immune to night actions.

You are an

Neighbor

Win Conditions:

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Abilities:

You share a Private Topic with your fellow scum; [names]. The Private Topic is here.
You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.
You share a private topic with one of your teammates, PX, and one opponent, PY. The Private Topic is here.

Thanks, I'll set up the review. Just as a couple quick FYIs to start with:

-I see you've listed there should be 9 town, but adding up the roles I get 10.
-Your role PM names should list the alignment of the role, i.e. "You are a town 2-shot watcher" just to make absolutely sure that everyone knows what alignment they are.

Please adjust for 9 town and reduce the VT's if you need to.

[implosion]

Primary: northsidegal
Secondary: mastina

[NoPowerOverMe]

Hi all.

[northsidegal]

ego

[northsidegal]

so if my analysis of all 12 player normals across 2019 is correct (courtesy of the mini normal archives which are courtesy of me), town's winrates across all 13 player games was roughly 66% while across all games it was closer to 53%, which suggests that smaller mini normal setups tended to be won by scum more often, which i think would suggest that they tended to be balanced as scumsided

this is just sort of background for my thought process in balancing a 12 player setup. onto specifics:

just from a setup perspective rather than only a balance perspective, i don't like the fact that you have 5 TPRs and more TPRs than there are VTs. none of the roles themselves are complex at all (which is good if you're going to have a lot of them), but it is still more than typical.

okay, balance points: innocent child + watcher that can see the mafia kill is a hard no. that interactions are really bad


here's a potential alternative setup off the top of my head (you don't have to accept it, it's just a suggestion):

Mafia Even-Night Commuter
Mafia Neighbor
Mafia Neighbor

Town 2-shot Personal Watcher
Town Even-Night Cop
Town Innocent Child
Town 1-shot Jailkeeper
Town Neighbor


the 1-shot jailkeeper slot is the one i'm the least sure about but eh, just kind of brainstorming here

if you want to talk a little bit about your thought process behind designing the setup then feel free, that might be helpful

[mastina]

It should be noted that a double-scum-one-town neighborhood is rather negative utility for the town and incredibly positive utility for the scum; with a three-man neighborhood, the expectation of one scum wouldn't be out of place, but the presence of two is something that is unlikely to be expected, akin to making a scum-scum neighborhood in ability to potentially falsely-clear a scum. One scum neighbor dies, and the other is likely to be seen as conftown, barring them being caught by an unambiguous guilty. (Which to be fair, the setup has two potentials of getting.)

I'm not really sure there'd be an answer to that aside from maybe adding another town neighbor to the mix. (Does not necessarily need to be a VT, could be one of the PRs.) A 3-man neighborhood with 2 scum would massively go against the expectations of the town; a 4-man neighborhood with 2 scum might still go against the town's expectations, but they should at least

entertain

the idea.

But that's just my thoughts on that area.

[NoPowerOverMe]

I purposefully added scum power because town have won handily in several of my previous games.

I think there needs to be WIFOM setup in games to discourage town from winning the game based solely on what they expect the setup to be.

[NoPowerOverMe]

I take it you want me to take out the miller in favor of a VT?

[NoPowerOverMe]

Also I see you added the power of the cop, which is okay.

[northsidegal]

I think there needs to be WIFOM setup in games to discourage town from winning the game based solely on what they expect the setup to be.

in practice this doesn't really happen. you're correct in that some level of red herring is healthy for the meta, but that doesn't mean that outright mod WIFOM is a good thing

at first i thought that there were only two scum neighbors and i was going to call it unacceptable – i think that a 1 town / 2 scum is close to that but still probably not unacceptable

[northsidegal]

I take it you want me to take out the miller in favor of a VT?

that was just part of an alternative proposal.

specifically, the setup as it stands is unpassable because of the IC + Watcher + Doctor, without even going any deeper into balance.

[NoPowerOverMe]

Why is IC+Doctor+Watcher unpassable?

[implosion]

In short it punishes scum no matter what they do in the event of relevant roles claiming. Any combination of those two roles is typically an antipattern:

IC + Doctor semi-guarantees that at some point scum waste a shot for no gain, and with nothing they could have done to know. And then if they don't find the doctor they're ostensibly doomed.
IC + Watcher is that but worse - it basically guarantees town a free guilty for nothing.
Doctor + Watcher is a big problem in a massclaim - if they target each other then scum have no recourse because they can't kill the watcher and if they kill the doctor they have to sacrifice someone.

Basically they're combinations that shift nightplay to have too strong of a role with no way to mitigate through dayplay.

That said, these issues are all lessened by gating the doctor and watcher. But I'll let the reviewers speak more to it.

[implosion]

(nsg and/or possibly mastina may also have other reasons that i've missed as well)

[NoPowerOverMe]

So take out innocent child for miller.

[NoPowerOverMe]

I don't see how the argument holds true though if the doctor is one shot. I could also switch out the doctor for another role like Ninja 1 Shot Night 3 Vigilante

[NoPowerOverMe]

Is no one wanting to review this anymore?

[mastina]

nsg's the primary reviewer, so I mostly defer to her here.

[NoPowerOverMe]

Should I pm her or do we need a new reviewer?

[northsidegal]

i'm here.

replacing the innocent child is not enough because doctor + watcher, as implosion said, is still a really bad combination of roles alone.

[northsidegal]

watcher itself is a role that a setup really needs to be built around to avoid the mafia just getting instantly punished by being guiltied for making (what are typically) good decisions by killing claimed power roles.

i'm going to requote my proposed alternative setup, i'd like to hear more of your thoughts on it. i am sorry to propose such radical changes to your setup, but i only do so because i truly believe that the combination of roles that you have is really unworkable for a balanced and fair game.

here's a potential alternative setup off the top of my head (you don't have to accept it, it's just a suggestion):

Mafia Even-Night Commuter
Mafia Neighbor
Mafia Neighbor

Town 2-shot Personal Watcher
Town Even-Night Cop
Town Innocent Child
Town 1-shot Jailkeeper
Town Neighbor

[NoPowerOverMe]

With 4 VT? That works for me.

[northsidegal]

okay, i'll need to see role PMs for that setup and the rules that you'll be using as well

[NoPowerOverMe]

Mafia Role PM's:

You are a

Mafia Even Night Commuter

Win Conditions:

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Abilities:

You share a Private Topic with your fellow scum; [names]. The Private Topic is here.
You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.
On even numbered nights you "leave town", making you immune to night actions.

You are a

Mafia Neighbor

Win Conditions:

You win if at least one member of your group is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Abilities:

You share a Private Topic with your fellow scum; [names]. The Private Topic is here.
You have a factional night-kill meaning that each night one of you may night-kill a player.
You share a private topic with one of your teammates, PX, and one opponent, PY. The Private Topic is here.

[NoPowerOverMe]

[quote="In post 0, implosion"][quote="NoPowerOverMe"]Here is my game setup:
Townx9: Innocent Child; Miller; 2 shot watcher; 1 shot cop; 1 shot doctor, Neighbor, 4xVT
Mafia:x3 Even Night Commuter, Neighborx2

Role PMs:

You are a

Town Innocent Child

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

You may PM the mod at any time to have him reveal your role to everyone in the game topic.

2 Shot Watcher
You are a

Town 2 Shot Watcher

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

Twice during the game at night, you may target a player to be watched, thus discovering if that player was targeted in the same night phase and if somebody did who. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing the names(s) of the players.

You are a

Town Even Night Cop

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

On even numbered nights, you may target a player to be inspected, thus discovering their alignment. You will receive a Private Message from the moderator containing either [Mafia] or [Not-Mafia].

You are a

Town 1 shot Jailkeeper

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

Once per game at night you may target a player to be jailkept, which both protects them and roleblocks them.

You are a

Town Neighbor

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

You will have access to a seperate Private Topic that includes two other neighbors, PX and PY. Their alignment is not confirmed. The PT is located here.

You are a

Vanilla Townie

Win Conditions:

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Abilities:

You have no abilities, your strength is your vote and intellect.[/b]