Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[teacher]

The only ISO that I actually had to reread after catching up was teacher's.

On first glance I liked you interrogating Hiraki about several points. But on second thought I don't really get out of your participation in this where you stand in all of this? Like I get Mena's and Dann's angle in this as they are scumreading Hiraki, but what about you? Your questions are focussed only on Hiraki in this, so I assume you are more or less on the same wavelength with them? (it's what I interpret between the lines)

What did you mean with Mena harping too much over this issue in 185?

Yea, I had a scum tingles on Hiraki but wanted to try to understand him, and was trying to limit the inflection of my own views to avoid the "wont interact with scum/people thinking Im scum" routine while getting my questions answered. I found my self hard vibing with Dann when he joined the interchange, so I agree with your interpretation.

As for Mena harping a lot on it, 135 159 and 183 struck me as a lot of appeals to outside adjudicators. I liked the first one, but by the last it seemed to get kinda....much/overly directing attention?

[dramonic]

Bets are open about how many appeals to the crowd we'll get from Menalque before she flips scum

You can still get your money in teach!

[teacher]

Bets are open about how many appeals to the crowd we'll get from Menalque before she flips scum

You can still get your money in teach!

Oddly, when I missed Mena's meta-angle case on Hiraki, my thought was that the overescalation was scum theater between the two of them. But I dont think he makes that detailed case on a partner. Nor do I think gives me a hard town read rn as scum. My playstyle (at least historically) often led to day 2/3 suspicions forming a consensus on me as null-scum, and thus a simple push to save for later/leaver yourself open to. The post as a whole didnt feel planned/pockety, so for today at least Im not suspicious of him (I have too much respect for his scum game to take a harder stance than that.)

[Umlaut]

Okay I think I’m at like

Dann, teacher - town
Umlaut, haven
Testa - townlean
Dunn - basically null but marginally above the other two
Gypx, A50 - null
Crush - true null
Dram - scummy
Hikari - scum

Can you explain the Dram read? I agree he's being

weird

but I don't see the scum angle.

[teacher]

There's no solid stance at any point. It's all "I sorta see it but maybe not teehee" kind of stuff.

I probably addressed this in the Testa post, but I think the subtext was pretty plain (enough for Testa to see) that I had issues/questions with Hiraki and wanted either to resolve them or solidify the read. I fully concede the lack of a solid explicit stance -- that was intentional so that i could have the conversation and get a response -- but think it was implied. Do you disagree?

[Hiraki]

There's no solid stance at any point. It's all "I sorta see it but maybe not teehee" kind of stuff.

I don't particularly scumread this but I understand where you're coming from. I certainly did notice it, just became annoying.

I dont follow all of the "person" and who they refer to in how you perceive the events

you don't know who i'm talking about after i've talked about them for 9+ pages because of you two at this point?

I did. Could you now answer the question, and answer what your take is on Menalque and why?

innocent child

I saw him as picking and choosing parts of the conversation to respond to

yeah the not dumb parts

I kept trying to steer the conversation to a firm Menalque read, and never got one.

wow

I wouldn’t?

You keep saying things like this and I just have no idea why you think I would trust that to be accurate/correct

ok but you considered the implication that you would care about it, which to me is a clear notation of scum thinking versus town thinking

But like I don’t see why he, regardless of alignment, would expect anyone to listen to him if he’s just asserting things?

so you are asking useless questions?

[TripleHaven]

Why would you think that Dram, who is scummy, would give out correct reads?

Because multiball?

Catching up now, got cut from work early

[TripleHaven]

Hiraki stop posting walls CHALLENGE (impossible) (never done before) (cops called)

[TripleHaven]

I’d like to see crush slot post and I still want to hear from dunn and A50

I know this is the same session (at least for me) but I want you to NOT expect much from me at this time still. You know well (ar at least should) that I don't enter the game guns blazing (unless I am a replacement who got it with lots of substance readily available). You should be happy I am -at least- not meme'ing and shitposting enough. My mind is "elsewhere" for now, but I am "watching from the sideline" and will probably jump in sometime soon.

why the quotation marks
what does elsewhere in quotation marks mean
why are you implying that meme'ing and shitposting is scummy
wh

[dramonic]

(I have too much respect for his scum game to take a harder stance than that.)

OOF
My kingdom for a dayvig

[dramonic]

Okay I think I’m at like

Dann, teacher - town
Umlaut, haven
Testa - townlean
Dunn - basically null but marginally above the other two
Gypx, A50 - null
Crush - true null
Dram - scummy
Hikari - scum

Can you explain the Dram read? I agree he's being

weird

but I don't see the scum angle.

I'm voting his scumbuddy

[teacher]

I dont follow all of the "person" and who they refer to in how you perceive the events

you don't know who i'm talking about after i've talked about them for 9+ pages because of you two at this point?

Again, I dont. Call me stupid, call me scum, whatever, but would you try to explain it to me one more time?

I kept trying to steer the conversation to a firm Menalque read, and never got one.

wow

Youre right, that was poorly worded. I was looking for reasons (hence the repeated why questions), not a read. I did get a read (scum). Now you are saying IC (town). Why the former? Why the shift? Why the latter?

[teacher]

(I have too much respect for his scum game to take a harder stance than that.)

OOF
My kingdom for a dayvig

Ask Dunn how vigging me works out.

[dramonic]

I think he was calling you an innocent child, but not the role.
And don't try to threaten me it's rude

[teacher]

I sincerely was not trying to threaten you, and apologize for anything that appeared that way.

And what does an innocent child label, but not role, mean? (this is a genuine question - I think maybe someone who is L-1/surfacey, but havent encountered it before outside the role).

[dramonic]

... he's calling you an idiot.
And im not literally threatened I was just responding to "ask dunn how that turns out"

[Umlaut]

Okay I think I’m at like

Dann, teacher - town
Umlaut, haven
Testa - townlean
Dunn - basically null but marginally above the other two
Gypx, A50 - null
Crush - true null
Dram - scummy
Hikari - scum

Can you explain the Dram read? I agree he's being

weird

but I don't see the scum angle.

I'm voting his scumbuddy

Sigh

Unless your name is Menalque I'm not interested in your explanation of Menalque's read.

[teacher]

I did. Could you now answer the question, and answer what your take is on Menalque and why?

innocent child

@dram: OK, I can see where this would just be pure mocking me for asking the question(s) (what was the reaction test and/or why do you read menalque as scum). Thanks for pointing out that angle, which I had not seen. Now why do you think Hiraki is repeatedly refusing to answer the "basis for read on Menalque" question from multiple slots (me, Dann, etc.)? Is he really so arrogant that he thinks hes found three scum on page 12?

[Hiraki]

Hiraki stop posting walls CHALLENGE (impossible) (never done before) (cops called)

those aren't walls??

Again, I dont. Call me stupid, call me scum, whatever, but would you try to explain it to me one more time?

dude it's menalque, how is this hard?

I did get a read (scum). Now you are saying IC (town). Why the former? Why the shift? Why the latter?

i don't actually think he's an IC and we've gone over the scum part multiple times

I think he was calling you an innocent child, but not the role.

no i realize now that my jokes and sarcasm aren't translating in this game but also by joking i have become more annoyed due to this game

Is he really so arrogant that he thinks hes found three scum on page 12?

where did i say 3 scum? i don't have a read on you two

[teacher]

OK, Hiraki, I am splitting this into multiple threads for coherence. Believe me, I more than get the frustration, because it seems like we have been talking past each other a bit, and Im frustrated too.

This first thread is about 220, which Im still trying to understand. You say "dude it's menalque, how is this hard?" But the issue is that there are two actors in the part Im trying to understand.

Here is what you wrote:

vote

the person

for a hard push of

that person

calling

you

scum four times but having literally nothing behind it and even stating that there could be nothing behind that read

As suggested by the italics/bolds/colors, there is are two people in this story, and I am not sure who is doing what.

Should I understand you to mean: Menalque votes Hiraki for a hard push of Hiraki calling Menalque scum four times but having literally nothing behind it and even stating.....? If so, isnt the nothing behind that read wrong (at least in your mind, becuase you say you have repeatedly explained the Menalque read?

Or should I understand you to mean: Hiraki votes Menalque for a hard push of Menalque calling Hiraki scum but having literally nothing behind it and even stating.....? If so, didnt Menalque's angle shooty case explain the something behind that read?

[teacher]

we've gone over the scum part multiple times

This is the second thread. As best I can tell, "the scum part" is crystallized in your 209. IS there anything else at all? Put another way, see my 214. My question is whether I am missing anything in your scumread of Menalque.

[Hiraki]

no - you are not missing anything and the fact that you think calling him scum 4 times is "baiting" him into a scumreading me for doing so is just why i don't think it's worth talking to you anymore.

please read the entire post if you want to understand the two people and how they come into play. i just did it and i got annoyed because i was being babyish. i'm not explaining it. your hint is that it's clearly melanque and me and i don't know how i have to explain more than that

[Dannflor]

There's no solid stance at any point. It's all "I sorta see it but maybe not teehee" kind of stuff.

Hiraki seems to be an individual that you have to interact with very delicately or else you won't get any useful information out of him at all. My goal was not to take a solid stance and call him out but try to tease out his reasoning behind his actions to better understand his alignment. I thought it was possible he was just raging town.

One thing I am wondering here is how your read has evolved here, dann? I mean you were considering Hiraki already in 148 and 151 as caught for wrong reasons, immediately after your vote, which is the conclusion you reached later in 222. It doesn't really seem like it has evolved? Or were you considering he might also has been stubborn town? Although you weren't really leaning on that either if I understood you right.

I was considering he might have been stubborn town. I still am to an extent but I think that's much more unlikely now. I don't think I can scum read the rage or obstinance in itself as that seems to be just a personality trait. However, I do scum read the lack of any attempt to actually genuinely figure out the alignments of the people around him. In 12 pages he hasn't espouse another read besides a scum read on Menalque. His existence right now just seems to be centered around shooting down anyone who tries to question him. It's something that would be easy to read as stubborn town but stubborn town usually has other *town* things going for them in my experience.

Also, I meant my read had evolved from my initial reasoning to scum read Hiraki in #148 to firmly "scum caught for the wrong reasons" based off his furthered reactions to my questioning on him. I took a bit to try and engage with him but it didn't really shift that.

[Dannflor]

btw Dunnstral is posting elsewhere on site that's not here sooooo that's also a good wagon

[Dannflor]

TripleHaven, did you get anything else out of the last several pages? Particularly a read on teacher?