Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[Dannflor]

I am in a spot where I disagree with almost everything dramonic says, but I also think they absolutely 100% believe everything they are saying, and I think that conviction is towny. It wouldn't take too much to adjust his attitude slightly and *stand out* a bit less, or be more agreeable

in short I don't see what he would be gaining (as scum) by playing the game the way that he is

[Menalque]

What did you think about gamma’s entrance?

[Dannflor]

my initial reaction was town

Are there elements of his entrance you take issue with besides his trajectory on Hiraki? Like assuming Hiraki is town, would you still find his entrance scummy

[Menalque]

There’s also his approach to me, but I’m waiting on him to go into more depth there

But like I didn’t like the fact that he came in, was basically agreeing with me on hiraki, but then shifted that round gradually to the point where I was being presented as the scummy one in the interaction. But then instead of pressing that point, he switched onto dram and focused his energies there

It’s a confounding factor that there are two scumteams so maaaaybe he thinks I’m on one and dram is on the other. But it felt a lot like a way to avoid me/discredit my takes without having to actually commit very hard to the read on me or confront me directly

[Menalque]

I also like really don’t get his take on dram as opposed to hiraki? I can see thinking they’re both town, and I can see thinking hiraki is scum and dram is town, but I don’t see how he gets to dram is scum but hiraki is town

[Marashu]

Gamma, why isn't it towny to sort down to a known number of scum?

[Dunnstral]

Dann, teacher
Umlaut, testa, dram
Triple, marashu
A50
Gypx, dunn
Gamma
Hiraki

Scummy list to be quite honest.

[Menalque]

Why?

[Almost50]

like you're not the only person with townreads, I don't think one persons reads are going to sway scum that hard

Gamma: There are two ways I can protect my

own

townreads. One is to hide them. the other is to mildly shade them (enough to discourage the NK on them but not enough to actually wagon them). In MB games the latter is still a risky tactic because of "power distribution". One scum side may decide to go for a push on said TR (that I shaded) and the other may join them (not knowing that they are the other scum team) and then a wagon would still build on them, and if resisted they'd become a prime NK target. (In single ball it's less dangerous because it's almost never the case that the whole scum team would be on the miss-elimination).

Also, consider this: If I am a PR; I don't want to reveal whom I might be targeting tonight (regardless of whether I am an investigative or a protective). If I am not a PR; I still want to appear like one so that -hopefully- I might eat a bullet for the team.

Capisce?

[Almost50]

But more importantly: Why would you care whom I TR anyway? What's it to you? You should only care about whom I'm SRing and why. No?

What???

this is super obtuse, even for you. Why would someone

only

care about your SRs? Is this some advanced shading method?

Because that's whom I want to eliminate. My TR on someone isn't even going to stop anyone else from FoSing them (or more). You seem to have forgotten how I play. I want to see where YOU (plural) are pushing and why. I want to see who noticed something and who didn't. Come on. Did you lose you booklet on "A50 playstyle, methods and tricks"?

[Almost50]

Btw, the first page on that biiklet clearly states "Leave A50 alone on D1. Ask him not to explain anything he says/does no matter how weird it might seem to you. If you're an investigative it is wise to check him on N1 just to be sure. If not, ask him what you want on D2".

[teacher]

teach are you standing by your rvs vote?

No UNVOTE:

I think I’d kind of like this. VOTE: dunn

[Almost50]

While we're here discussing my super special lack of reads beyond 4 scum{tm)

I can't believe I was tricked by this evil scum called dramonic, but here he is scumslipping. He opened it with { but closed it with ), which is something I have once caught scum doing, so he must be scum.

@Gamma: Sorry for the bad joke, but this is how I see your argument comparing dram's play to N_M's play. But feel free to continue your push there.

On another note: See what I mean? dram is like the only player I had explicitly stated a TR on, and that didn't stop you from pushing him, did it? There is literally no point in me outing my other TRs at this time.

[Almost50]

in short I don't see what he would be gaining (as scum) by playing the game the way that he is

This is exactly why I'm townreading dram myself.

[Hiraki]

t's not that hard to understand? Hiraki wasn't talking about his meta at all there
site meta is essentially how the site views certain plays or whatever, things such as "Eliminate all lurkers" and such.

that's not what melanque is saying

I *do* think you’re playing to an outdated site meta which is leading you to bad reads, and it’s not the same thing. I’ve also seen it before first hand with a scumbuddy of mine a couple of games ago where he was in PT like “idgi why are people scumreading me, this is literally my town meta??” and it was just because the site had moved on a lot in play from when he was active

he's saying that because we're old, we're outdated and people have developed new scumtells that might've incriminated people in an "older" playstyle. that is site meta. unless i am assuming incorrectly you used my name rather than melanque's

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay do you wanna talk about why that is

I think Hiraki’s thought about you overreacting is very valid in a way, you did seem to freak out at his read
Like the fact you seemed to think he was sure of that read tells me he might have been onto something. Perception is reality in a way, and what you think others think of you is very important. You essentially made it evident that you were concerned about being scumread a little more than I think you or any player should at that point.

[Menalque]

what do you think was overreacting? me calling it a hardpush or something else?

I also didn't think he was sure of that read, I doubted that read could exist that strongly in a world where hiraki was town and wanted to interrogate him about it

[Gamma Emerald]

You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

[Gamma Emerald]

what do you think was overreacting? me calling it a hardpush or something else?

I also didn't think he was sure of that read, I doubted that read could exist that strongly in a world where hiraki was town and wanted to interrogate him about it

Yeah, the calling it a hardpush

I feel like you responded that way because as scum you have to take suspicions towards you seriously

[Menalque]

You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

meta with hiraki?

I think that dram's like, insane overconfidence in his reads for things that I think are NAI or ambiguous is similar to hiraki's take on me being scum

what I think is different is that I think that when he went further into his read on triple is that I think he does genuinely have the reads he's talking about, and that he's interested in the game beyond me/triple and the other slots. I don't see that in hiraki -- his entire game approach seems to have been about this and me!scum and he doesn't seem interested in sorting beyond that

[Menalque]

what do you think was overreacting? me calling it a hardpush or something else?

I also didn't think he was sure of that read, I doubted that read could exist that strongly in a world where hiraki was town and wanted to interrogate him about it

Yeah, the calling it a hardpush

I feel like you responded that way because as scum you have to take suspicions towards you seriously

okay, but I explained at the time that by hard push I meant that he was pushing the idea that I was scum hard? which I think is objectively true

why would I be worried about that as scum when it wasn't really getting any play?

[Dunnstral]

Why?

Trying to place everyone into super organized tiers this early in the game

And what is it based on?

And I'm in the final 4 along with gypyx who is probably an inactive player, and you're likely towning a bunch of scum.

Teacher isn't even attempting to veil his omgus vote above, no pretenses and no explanations

[Gamma Emerald]

There’s also his approach to me, but I’m waiting on him to go into more depth there

But like I didn’t like the fact that he came in, was basically agreeing with me on hiraki, but then shifted that round gradually to the point where I was being presented as the scummy one in the interaction. But then instead of pressing that point, he switched onto dram and focused his energies there

It’s a confounding factor that there are two scumteams so maaaaybe he thinks I’m on one and dram is on the other. But it felt a lot like a way to avoid me/discredit my takes without having to actually commit very hard to the read on me or confront me directly

This is not exactly the case. I never really scumread Hiraki, there was only one point where I really even started entertaining that thought. All I did was talk about how I wasn’t okay with his interactions at the time. I’ll admit my scumread on Menalque did form rather nebulously around the time I started actually townreading Hiraki so I can understand arguments about convenient reads, but tbh I think if I wanted to divert attention from Hiraki I just push Menalque? Pretty sure a wider range of people have expressed suspicion of him. Meanwhile aorn the only other person really on board with the dram vote is Haven. I don’t intend to beat this point to death but figured it should be mentioned.
As for the dram read it started around the 5/4 post, and was cemented in the post that talked about having to find extra scumreads just to fill scumread slots

Also, I think I might have forgotten to engage this point time of, or I just stopped posting before then, but: having the same amount of scumreads as there are scum in the game doesn’t prevent mis-elims? Honestly the mindset being shown here is one that just makes no sense in any way, because it seems dram believes that all eliminations happen at the same time, as otherwise why would having 5 scumreads mean a guaranteed mis-elim?
If I wanted to get reachy I’d say this was an indicator of having a nightkill as that’s a way to handle “scumreads” with relative confidence they’ll be taken out of the game.

[Menalque]

we're like 24 pages in? I don't think that's early to have my reads

it's based on my impressions of the different slots so far? I'm PoEing you and gypx out to scum because I think everyone else has town more town indicative things than either of you, and I think you both lowkey fit the position where I'd expect scum to be if dram is town and I'm town and teacher's town and dann's town which is just chilling out and letting us go at it

if I am towning scum, then I'll realise that if and when my scum reads flip town

[Gamma Emerald]

You townreading hiraki and scumreading dram doesn’t make sense to me

My Hiraki read is based on experience (meta in other words), so you’re probably just not in the loop there. So why do you think my dram read doesn’t make sense?

meta with hiraki?

I think that dram's like, insane overconfidence in his reads for things that I think are NAI or ambiguous is similar to hiraki's take on me being scum

what I think is different is that I think that when he went further into his read on triple is that I think he does genuinely have the reads he's talking about, and that he's interested in the game beyond me/triple and the other slots. I don't see that in hiraki -- his entire game approach seems to have been about this and me!scum and he doesn't seem interested in sorting beyond that

I can see what you’re saying about reads, but here’s where we diverge in thought. For dramonic, yes I think some of her reads might be genuine, namely the TH read on the one on you. However, that doesn’t mute out the fact the rest of her scumhunting doesn’t come off as genuine. Plus the “they’re a scumbuddy” thing, though I’ll have to double-check, hasn’t really been explained in any meaningful capacity since I recall it being used in a situation not relating to TH + Menalque
As for Hiraki, yes I have meta on him that I’m using, mainly to understand his personality and how he plays. While I would like him to give more reads on the other players, that doesn’t detract from how towny his approach to certain interactions has been, at least not enough to make me doubt my read. Also he at least has indicated what amounts to a dramonic townread, via disagreeing with me voting there.