Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[Hiraki]

and you've never attributed that to me once this game?

[Menalque]

In the eventuality that you're town it also applies to you. I just don't think you're town.

[Menalque]

I don't think I've attributed it to you?

[Hiraki]

Talk to me about dunny then? Bc I don’t really think anyone has done much AI yet apart from hiraki who I think is scum for meta reasons

did we forget about this discussion

[Hiraki]

i just find it ironic that whenever melanque needs to come up with a decent excuse for reads - it becomes "meta"

whether it be "meta" for angleshooting

"meta" for dram is too old

"meta" for...maybe umlaut next?

[Hiraki]

Menalque, could you elaborate on your town read on TripleHaven? Is there more to it than meta?

Not really, and I didn’t love her recent posts but overall she reminds me significantly of last game with the key exception being a lack of paranoia of me. I’m putting that down to my being town last game tho and then playing the same here, so I think it makes sense she’d be less concerned

wouldn't want to forget meta with townreads

[Menalque]

Like, I think I’ve been pretty clear

When I said “scum for meta reasons” I was talking about the stuff that TL considers angle shooting and that I therefore can’t go further into. I think that’s very clear from the context and where I explain it further

When I talk about dram being wrong because of site meta, that’s a totally different thing

And yes, I consider my holistic read of people based on prior interactions with them? What exactly is your problem with this?

[Menalque]

Also that’s lowkey funny because I do have a question for umlaut that is specifically about meta

[Menalque]

i just find it ironic that whenever melanque needs to come up with a decent excuse for reads - it becomes "meta"

whether it be "meta" for angleshooting

"meta" for dram is too old

"meta" for...maybe umlaut next?

Also, you’re like, entirely disregarding 640 which had at least half of the points on why you’re scum as specific to how you’ve played this game as opposed to meta?

[Menalque]

NB: my name is “menalque” not “melanque”

[Marashu]

Way overconfident scumread on me from way too little information. I don’t think it’s plausible that he had a scumread that strong based on what I’d posted.

I've seen this more from town than scum, though.

When asked to justify it, he said that it was because I’d given a “forced” readslist. When it was pointed out that this was a joke and that that had already been explained, he doubled down on it being “forced” and that it “wasn’t funny”.

The fact that it was a joke was apparent to me, but because I never played with him before I thought it wasn't apparent to him. Also didn't feel like a hard push.

Proceeded to try to dismiss the scumreads on his slot with a load of AtE and lolcatting.

I can see what you're getting at here, and this might be why I was having a hard time reading him.

Doesn’t seem to have any organic reads on the rest of the PL which is in stark contrast to his recent completed game here where he had a full readslist in by post 135 and was also just tonally completely different in how he entered the game and engaged with the other players, showing much more good faith and interest in cooperation.

[/quote]
I had to ISO him on to review this point. The thing I really don't get is why town!Hiraki would shift the vote over to TH here, or rather, I kinda do get why town!Hiraki does this but I don't know why town!Hiraki doesn't pursue what I see. I can see why scum!Hiraki would go for TH. And I mean, he's definitely been engaging with the PL, but mostly to say a) Mena is scum, or b) he is not scum.

I still prefer teach for D1, but I'm open for Hiraki (and I think I prefer Hiraki over TH right this moment).

Also, @Mena it would be helpful to me if you answer my question in 415 about your take on scum play in multiball.

[Menalque]

Yeah, I’ve been weighing that up. I was considering not answering but I figure scum have probably talked about it in PT and what they should do strategy wise so I doubt I’m hurting town here

I think they’d probably want to avoid targeting the other team D1. I would. If the other team are guillotined then they are in a tricky situation and I think likely to try very hard to scumhunt to look town the next day/they might shoot at you if they think they’ve figured you out bc the other scumteam will probably try to finish you before too long. Also because if the other scumteam hit you accidentally they’ve turned it into an 9:2 which is a micro with an extra MG, and which definitely benefits town.

If I’m scum I want to tentatively work with the other scumteam to get a mislynch and then I probably try to kill town again. D2 I’d start really pursuing the other scumteam with a weak town who are more likely to have to work with me in a kingmaker scenario.

[Menalque]

Also

(1) I think town are often way overconfident (look at dram) but I think it follows from something that seems like sound premises. I think the basis that hiraki was giving a “mena is lockscum” read was not strong enough for him to reasonably hold that belief. Therefore I think he’s scum making it up.

(2) why does it matter if it wasn’t apparent to him initially, given that it had been explained as a joke by the point he was still trying to use it as evidence for his scumread on me? Also it doesn’t matter exactly if it was a hardpush in terms of the traction it got — the point is that he was pushing it too hard. Do you see what I’m getting at with the distinction I’m drawing here?

(3) he’d shift his vote because I wasn’t picking up traction, haven is a relatively safe target, and he was the top wagon other than that — it’s survivalism

(4) right, it’s a phoney/shallow engagement — it’s not really trying to sort through slots, it’s just trying to keep the focus on one issue and not expanding beyond that

[teacher]

His posts feel pretty dispassionate, like he's trying to be a mediator to appear engaged. By this I mean he's not really taking any hard stances unless called on. 221 is where I started getting scum vibes. 380 doesn't come from a town mindset, in my opinion,

Let's chat.

1. What made the game unfun was toxicity in past games, and Im naturally conflict resistant (hence the job), so I get the mediator thing. But why is that anti-town?

2. Presuming your answer is that Im not really taking any hard stances, Id say I have more pronounced reads than like 1/2 the PL. Ive expressed views on Mena, Hiraki, Umlaut, Dram, DannFlor, and Dunn -- the last four without being expressly called to do so. Do you disagree? For what its worth, Im also a townlean on Testa and a null-scum on you, but having trouble sorting out your low-content from VCA and otherwise.

3. Why doesnt 380 come from a town mindset? That comment makes like no sense to me.

[Menalque]

His posts feel pretty dispassionate, like he's trying to be a mediator to appear engaged. By this I mean he's not really taking any hard stances unless called on. 221 is where I started getting scum vibes. 380 doesn't come from a town mindset, in my opinion, and I haven't really seen anything that's getting me to see this slot as town.

Whats scummy in 221 and why is teacher playing as a mediator scummy to you?

Also, what about 380 makes you say it doesn’t come from a town mindset?

[Menalque]

Oh lmao

[Menalque]

Teacher I think marashu is quite likely to be town, why do you have him at nullscum?

[Menalque]

Also remind me of your umlaut read?

[teacher]

I dont have a strong view, just concerns and vague memory. When I was scum buddy with him in one of my last games, I remember him posting in PT>thread. His thread presence hasnt been high. I also seemed like an odd push for a mediator stance in the discussion with Hiraki, with that was both (a) explained at the time he made the post and (b) equally applicable to Dann, but he hasnt really mentioned that name. I dont like his "mediator"/blendy take when I think Ive taken way more solid stances than him. Also the push has remained fairly consistent all day, so seems to be a way to avoid interacting with the greater thread/taking more stances.

Why do you think town.

[teacher]

2. Not one thing in particular. Their posts have just jived with me -- I liked the response to dram on "specific things," the timing on the vote of Hiraki, and just gestalt, generally.

As reasons for a townlean on Umlaut. The fudging on TripleHaven since then kinda lessens it a bit. My own take on Triple is to take the 66% based on similarity of playstyle, but I do wnant th two of you to get together somewhat on that.

[dramonic]

Yeah, I’ve been weighing that up. I was considering not answering but I figure scum have probably talked about it in PT and what they should do strategy wise so I doubt I’m hurting town here

I think they’d probably want to avoid targeting the other team D1. I would. If the other team are guillotined then they are in a tricky situation and I think likely to try very hard to scumhunt to look town the next day/they might shoot at you if they think they’ve figured you out bc the other scumteam will probably try to finish you before too long. Also because if the other scumteam hit you accidentally they’ve turned it into an 9:2 which is a micro with an extra MG, and which definitely benefits town.

If I’m scum I want to tentatively work with the other scumteam to get a mislynch and then I probably try to kill town again. D2 I’d start really pursuing the other scumteam with a weak town who are more likely to have to work with me in a kingmaker scenario.

I'm gonna need a lot of cheese for all that WIFOM

[teacher]

Do you disagree? He was asked how he would play it, and the strat seems reasonable. If you disagree, why? If you dont, why shade it?

[dramonic]

Mara, I’m trying to explain why I think dram is so wrong if town. Fmpov (knowing I’m town) dram has been pushing conftown, and three of my top townreads. My explanations for that are either (1) he’s scum (2) he’s incompetent (3) something else.

I'm really excited for the backpedal day 2

[dramonic]

Do you disagree? He was asked how he would play it, and the strat seems reasonable. If you disagree, why? If you dont, why shade it?

We're not in a vacuum or in the mafia discussion forum. Any answer given is swayed by alignment and gamestate.

[dramonic]

It's also really bad play, but that's besides the point