Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[ItalianoVD]

...

@Frederick: welcome to the game.

Thank you.

I’m not liking shelly’s responses to Frederick. Seems unnecessarily hostile and defensive. Does this qualify as a good enough read?

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Shelly seems unnecessarily hostile in general, I'd say. Some people have that as a behavioral trait, scum or town, as Frederick says. I used to be one of them, and I'm not just talking about Mafia. (I've managed to mostly dial that back.)

I'd also say that you're getting too hung up on the similarities and not looking for any differences is another reason I dislike your hyper-focused pushes. And for the record: if you see no differences at all, that means you're just stuck on this read and not actually thinking about it. Different game, different time, different players all mean different dynamics and thus different behavior.

Pick at the differences and let them aid your conclusion, /then/ you're actually scumhunting. (Similarities are also useful, but you can't focus all on one and not at all on the other and still get useful information.)



For Frederick: I was asking in the most general sense. ANY play that comes across as scum play versus ANY play that comes off as town that isn't working in town's favor. I want a really high level overview of where your line is drawn, even if it's a thin and insubstantial line.

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Okay, that’s fair.

I'd also say that you're getting too hung up on the similarities and not looking for any differences is another reason I dislike your hyper-focused pushes.

You don’t know if I’m not looking for differences. You’re assuming it. For all you know I’ve made my read based off the two.

And for the record: if you see no differences at all, that means you're just stuck on this read and not actually thinking about it.

Really? so that’s the only possibility. It couldn’t be that she actually is scum? Okay.

Pick at the differences and let them aid your conclusion, /then/ you're actually scumhunting. (Similarities are also useful, but you can't focus all on one and not at all on the other and still get useful information.)
That’s the thing. I feel like she is playing the same exact way. You are pushing for me to see differences and don’t like that I don’t. Now I could be wrong. I was very wrong last game, thinking I had it figured out. I’m trying to not act like I have it figured out, but it’s Day 1, we have little to no information. At first my vote is of course a joking RVS vote, but then I begin to see the same traits and actions that scum!shelly had. Let me say it this way. If this was shelly’s first game I wouldn’t think anything of it. I’d still question her defensiveness but there would more than likely not be a scumread or even suspicious read from her because she plays like a newbie townie would play. But that’s NOT the context here and I’m not liking the fact that you and Magik are seemingly disregarding that fact. I get what you’re saying and it’s a fair asssessment but I feel like you don’t get what I’m saying and are quick to just disregard it as anti-town and a weak push. Imo your argument would have merit if it was the scenario I outlined above, otherwise I think it’s just too one sided and closed.

I think Frederick perfectly outlines my thoughts in

157

. Again I’m not disregarding the possibility that she is townie, but it’s not something I’m gonna jump to immediately when I feel their is no difference in her play style.

@MUSHSHAGANA: Regarding your question. I think anti-town and scummy are interchangeable terms meaning the same thing. I think the line is drawn individually though. There’s no rule of thumb for drawing that line imo. The line for you maybe different for me or Magik or Shelly. All in all I think it comes down to a mixture of gut and logic.

[ItalianoVD]

Ughh. Sorry let me clean that up

[ItalianoVD]

In my opinion, the observation is accurate. However, I don't think it necessarily means she is a mafioso, just an egotistical person. shellyc, describing you as egotistical is not meant as an insult, but just a description.

Okay, that’s fair.

I'd also say that you're getting too hung up on the similarities and not looking for any differences is another reason I dislike your hyper-focused pushes.

You don’t know if I’m not looking for differences. You’re assuming it. For all you know I’ve made my read based off the two.

And for the record: if you see no differences at all, that means you're just stuck on this read and not actually thinking about it.

Really? so that’s the only possibility. It couldn’t be that she actually is scum? Okay.

Pick at the differences and let them aid your conclusion, /then/ you're actually scumhunting. (Similarities are also useful, but you can't focus all on one and not at all on the other and still get useful information.)

That’s the thing. I feel like she is playing the same exact way. You are pushing for me to see differences and don’t like that I don’t. Now I could be wrong. I was very wrong last game, thinking I had it figured out. I’m trying to not act like I have it figured out, but it’s Day 1, we have little to no information. At first my vote is of course a joking RVS vote, but then I begin to see the same traits and actions that scum!shelly had. Let me say it this way. If this was shelly’s first game I wouldn’t think anything of it. I’d still question her defensiveness but there would more than likely not be a scumread or even suspicious read from her because she plays like a newbie townie would play. But that’s NOT the context here and I’m not liking the fact that you and Magik are seemingly disregarding that fact. I get what you’re saying and it’s a fair asssessment but I feel like you don’t get what I’m saying and are quick to just disregard it as anti-town and a weak push. Imo your argument would have merit if it was the scenario I outlined above, otherwise I think it’s just too one sided and closed.

I think Frederick perfectly outlines my thoughts in 157. Again I’m not disregarding the possibility that she is townie, but it’s not something I’m gonna jump to immediately when I feel their is no difference in her play style.

@MUSHSHAGANA: Regarding your question. I think anti-town and scummy are interchangeable terms meaning the same thing. I think the line is drawn individually though. There’s no rule of thumb for drawing that line imo. The line for you maybe different for me or Magik or Shelly. All in all I think it comes down to a mixture of gut and logic.

[ItalianoVD]

Alright that’s better.

[ItalianoVD]

@MUSHSHAGANA: If you aren’t going to say what’s on your mind or what you’re thinking why allude to it? If you’re thinking about something or trying to form opinions, but they’re incomplete, wouldn’t it be better to wait until they are complete before sharing that you’re forming them? Lol, it’s like a teaser trailer.

[Frogsterking]

Hey Frederick, I just thought of a couple of questions for you! Mainly because you replaced in recently and I noticed you had just finished moderating a game.

1) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most active players in the game on D1?

and

2) Have you noticed anything telling about lobbies on this site where all of the scum players became among the top 5 most townread players in the game on D1?

[Redados]

I feel like redados was noticeably more open and aggressive during his D1 town play of the other game and it could be indicative of an alignment change but I think that's a little thin.

I'm playing this game differently so far, mostly because of IRL stuff. Last game I was hitting refresh and constantly checking the game and because of life circumstances, I am not available to do that right now. Last game was also a different type of game because there were less paragraphs and more one-liners, and I'm getting used to the new style. I'm getting used to paragraph vs paragraph. It's not an excuse, just more of an acknowledgement that I would like to get more involved with this game.

Last game too I was constantly posting reads lists and impressions as they came to me. I am struggling to develop reads right now. I feel very in-my-head regarding ItalianoVD and ShellyC; my impressions of them from last game are burned into my head and it's like the opposite of a meta read. It's not helpful and I'm trying to separate them in my head that they don't necessarily have the same roles as last game. I'm townreading Italiano but I feel like it's leftover town cred from last game so not genuine.

I'm town-reading Mush, but I don't really have reads on anyone else. Again, the paragraph style of posting is something that I need to get used to.

[Frogsterking]

I feel like redados was noticeably more open and aggressive during his D1 town play of the other game and it could be indicative of an alignment change but I think that's a little thin.

I'm playing this game differently so far, mostly because of IRL stuff. Last game I was hitting refresh and constantly checking the game and because of life circumstances, I am not available to do that right now. Last game was also a different type of game because there were less paragraphs and more one-liners, and I'm getting used to the new style. I'm getting used to paragraph vs paragraph. It's not an excuse, just more of an acknowledgement that I would like to get more involved with this game.

Last game too I was constantly posting reads lists and impressions as they came to me. I am struggling to develop reads right now. I feel very in-my-head regarding ItalianoVD and ShellyC; my impressions of them from last game are burned into my head and it's like the opposite of a meta read. It's not helpful and I'm trying to separate them in my head that they don't necessarily have the same roles as last game. I'm townreading Italiano but I feel like it's leftover town cred from last game so not genuine.

I'm town-reading Mush, but I don't really have reads on anyone else. Again, the paragraph style of posting is something that I need to get used to.

I feel like that is an excuse (and it's understandable.)

Can you make a quadruplet of off-the-cuff reads, two different ones for shelly and italiano, one taking into account last game vs one taking purely this game into account?

[Redados]

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

(using last game) I don't agree with Shelly's constant pushing because she was doing that last game; she kept yelling at MiniMegabyte for "scumslipping" (Mini was town). I think it's not helpful to latch onto small things and use them to justify a scumread. Sometimes you have a feeling you can't justify, but I think it's disingenuous to pull weak justification for your scumread. In retrospect, I may have done that with my initial scumread of Shelly, so I'm revising my scumread from a justified one to a gut one.

(ignoring last game) ItalianoVD has not been super active but he's posted enough. He's given reads and had conversations with people. I don't really have a handle on his alignment yet.

(using last game) something someone else said about how Italiano's playstyle might make him look scummier than he is resonates with me. I spent a lot of last game oscillating back and forth whether Italiano was scum or town and my impression is that he could hide it well enough if he were scum. It makes me scared to townread him or scumread him, although I'm townreading him now. I do feel like he was more active and off-the-cuff last game, but I haven't gone back and really ISOd and compared, which I will do at some point.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

For ItalianoVD:

I hint at what I'm thinking to let everyone else where my eyes are, and (sometimes) the general thrust of my thoughts. It's essentially cooperative in intent, I want more people to look where I'm looking and start forming their own opinions, which I can use to inform my own train of thought.

I don't say what I'm thinking out loud for a number of reasons: it creates pressure, it lets me know if I'm seeing something that isn't actually there (without introducing my own bias), I want to keep my target from recognizing their own patterns and changing them until I have enough to work with.

Example in action: I was sitting on Redados being the fluffiest player by post count while criticizing Shelly for fluff until I was sure I was not going to get any more fluff from him.

Sometimes, I don't actually have any thoughts at all, but feel something deserves attention or I want to introduce some pressure to a player and see what falls out without doing anything accusatory.

Not every reason applies to every time I withhold my actual thoughts, and saying which one it is before I'm ready gives the game away.

Speaking of...



Based on the other SEs answers to my question, I want to do this. VOTE: Frederick A Campbell

Frederick is adamantly against categorization, in a game where town wins by categorizing actions, intent and motivations. He sees no utility in the play-style categories of "anti-town townie" and "scum". The other two agree these have meaning, even if they think they're either too overlapped to draw a line between or that they're essentially in separate domains.

His playstyle seems accommodating to a fault. Rock the boat? Not our Frederick, never him. He's unfocused in play thus far, and reactive rather than proactive -- he rarely (a quick skim suggests "never" might be more accurate) initiates questioning or interaction, though he readily responds to it. At 20 posts, he's past the point where every other player in the game had started making moves rather than passively reacting to others moving around them -- and he has not.

(A quick note that almost all of our active players and one of our inactives had started making moves and asking pointed questions before their 15th post. Redados is the only truly active player who I think may have had 15 posts before getting serious at all, though I'm insufficiently caffeinated to double-check at the moment.)

This isn't a scumread (yet), but it is a note of peculiar behavior. Time to raise the pressure a little, I think.

[Nahdia]

Seeking replacement for loz.

[Frogsterking]

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

(using last game) I don't agree with Shelly's constant pushing because she was doing that last game; she kept yelling at MiniMegabyte for "scumslipping" (Mini was town). I think it's not helpful to latch onto small things and use them to justify a scumread. Sometimes you have a feeling you can't justify, but I think it's disingenuous to pull weak justification for your scumread. In retrospect, I may have done that with my initial scumread of Shelly, so I'm revising my scumread from a justified one to a gut one.

(ignoring last game) ItalianoVD has not been super active but he's posted enough. He's given reads and had conversations with people. I don't really have a handle on his alignment yet.

(using last game) something someone else said about how Italiano's playstyle might make him look scummier than he is resonates with me. I spent a lot of last game oscillating back and forth whether Italiano was scum or town and my impression is that he could hide it well enough if he were scum. It makes me scared to townread him or scumread him, although I'm townreading him now. I do feel like he was more active and off-the-cuff last game, but I haven't gone back and really ISOd and compared, which I will do at some point.

Hmm..

[rocknil]

I think I'm getting strong town vibe from MUSHSHAGANA.

UNVOTE: MUSHSHAGANA

[ItalianoVD]

Something I was thinking about. This is for MUSHSHAGANA and MagikHorse. Why are guys not questioning my townread on Redados? Redados is in the exact same category as shelly. It was his first game onsite and my first time playing with him. I’m using the exact same logic to read Redados that I am for shelly. If the premise of your argument is not to look at meta or to look at both the similarities and differences to come to my conclusion, then why not question my townread, why only the scumread? This is why I don’t necessarily like the push. I feel that if shelly is scum than one of you may be her partner.

[Redados]

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

(using last game) I don't agree with Shelly's constant pushing because she was doing that last game; she kept yelling at MiniMegabyte for "scumslipping" (Mini was town). I think it's not helpful to latch onto small things and use them to justify a scumread. Sometimes you have a feeling you can't justify, but I think it's disingenuous to pull weak justification for your scumread. In retrospect, I may have done that with my initial scumread of Shelly, so I'm revising my scumread from a justified one to a gut one.

(ignoring last game) ItalianoVD has not been super active but he's posted enough. He's given reads and had conversations with people. I don't really have a handle on his alignment yet.

(using last game) something someone else said about how Italiano's playstyle might make him look scummier than he is resonates with me. I spent a lot of last game oscillating back and forth whether Italiano was scum or town and my impression is that he could hide it well enough if he were scum. It makes me scared to townread him or scumread him, although I'm townreading him now. I do feel like he was more active and off-the-cuff last game, but I haven't gone back and really ISOd and compared, which I will do at some point.

Hmm..

That was off the cuff so I'm curious to hear your reaction.

[ItalianoVD]

I think I'm getting strong town vibe from MUSHSHAGANA.

UNVOTE: MUSHSHAGANA

Why? What has happened that is not giving you scummy vibes or triggering your ocd anymore? To go from that to “strong” town vibes is interesting.

[shellyc]

A boatload of posts to read since I fell asleep. I will address the posts all at once. A lot of paragraphs for me to read right now,

[shellyc]

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

Who would actually like being scumread, to be fair? Also

not agreeing with my pushes != I am scum.

We just have different viewpoints and interactions.

[rocknil]

Why? What has happened that is not giving you scummy vibes or triggering your ocd anymore? To go from that to “strong” town vibes is interesting.

From what I've read so far, her arguments seemed like townlean to me. To be honest, I'm fairly new at this game. I don't have any particular playstyle besides being quiet and trusting my gut feeling. Also the 'Strong' vibe might've been a hyperbole.

[shellyc]

I think I'm getting strong town vibe from MUSHSHAGANA.

UNVOTE: MUSHSHAGANA

So you just unvoted them... without any explanation. Why are the arguments they made "townlean"? With all the interactions happening, not even a

simple explanation or analysis?

This is so suspect to me. I completely don't like this post.

Also being quiet isn't helping town. If you don't say anything, how are we going to read you?

[shellyc]

That’s the thing. I feel like she is playing the same exact way. You are pushing for me to see differences and don’t like that I don’t.

Last game I sheeped people for half of the game. This game I had a readslist since page 3, called out numerous players for being scummy, and pushed aggressively. I don't get how I am "repeat posting" or "sheeping".

[Redados]

Yeah. (ignoring last game) this game Shelly has been pretty active and pushing. I don't necessarily agree with her pushes because she reaallly does not like being scumread. I am still scumreading her.

Who would actually like being scumread, to be fair? Also

not agreeing with my pushes != I am scum.

We just have different viewpoints and interactions.

You and I react very differently to being scumread. When I am scumread, I don't care, because I know that over time my towniness will shine through. You get defensive.

Your push on rocknil. He is clearly pretty new. I am not a fan of how you are communicating with him. I disagree with your pushes, and I am scumreading you.

[shellyc]

You and I react very differently to being scumread. When I am scumread, I don't care, because I know that over time my towniness will shine through. You get defensive.

Your push on rocknil. He is clearly pretty new. I am not a fan of how you are communicating with him. I disagree with your pushes, and I am scumreading you.

Mafia is a game of social deduction. Part of being a good townie is being open and being able to be seen as a townie.

Me getting defensive is NAI

; it is my natural reaction to being scumread and you can't deny that or scumread me for that.

I never even pushed rocknil. I was encouraging them to start talking and I was asking them to give an explanation. Because of the lack of posts, they are

not in my lynchpool

today.

[MagikHorse]

Something I was thinking about. This is for MUSHSHAGANA and MagikHorse. Why are guys not questioning my townread on Redados? Redados is in the exact same category as shelly. It was his first game onsite and my first time playing with him. I’m using the exact same logic to read Redados that I am for shelly. If the premise of your argument is not to look at meta or to look at both the similarities and differences to come to my conclusion, then why not question my townread, why only the scumread? This is why I don’t necessarily like the push. I feel that if shelly is scum than one of you may be her partner.

I admit the Redados townread hardly even registered because you literally just said it once in 71 and haven't mentioned your read on Redados before or since, or any reasoning for doing so either. Even then "I want to think they're town but I don't know how they act as scum" still doesn't fly at all for the same reason the Shelly read does.

I went over all this in 154, but I never really got a response to that either. I'd like one.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I've been busy today, but I'm pretty free for now.



ItalianoVD: MagikHorse basically outlined the basic problem: your scumread on Shelly is obsessive, your townread on Redados is throw-away. Not liking that much now that I recall that it exists... barely. And yeah, it's just as invalid, since you could be stuck on bad information and not reading correctly... permitting scum to manipulate you freely.



Redados is doing this really odd thing I am not fond of, where he repeatedly makes offhanded references to how town he is. Incessantly. It's more like it's for his own sake than for anyone else's. "Ah, yes, my confidence in being town is such that I do not crack under pressure!" Repeat until you believe. It's a bad look.

That said, I'm (for the time being) quite liking my vote right where it is. Not much more to say for now.