Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[teacher]

so then why you gonna hammer Jake when it's pretty viable we can do mara today?

It wasn’t when you were in lol mode and Bell hopped on that. I don’t exactly see Dunn joining a wagon I’m pushing and dram calling it darts. I was just willing to take a slot I see as not advancing the game out and move on to the next day with info.

[teacher]

why not mara?

I backed myself off there a bit, but am kinda giving up the ghost on the day as well.

In other words, this, especially the last part.

I didn’t find the push on me to be genuine and I remembered him pushing off-pace wagons in our scum game together. He also has a habit as scum of accusing others of doing what he is doing (e.g., his accusation that I haven’t taken stances). But then I skimmed his other scum games and didn’t see him making off-pace pushes as a consistent theme, so that lessened it a bit.

But mostly was willing to give up the day.

[Menalque]

1. okay maybe but like just saying "sorry I'll be back later" is imo different to saying "ahhh I need to think about X" because X is a concrete thing and it's a different type of process. I think like ~*generally*~ excusing activity is a different vibe and I think what marashu did is closer to the first thing in quotation marks than the second. and you're prob not gonna change my mind on this being a pretty good scumtell fwiw, even if you're still not convinced it is

2. I think he gets to draw less attention to himself and to present himself as playing like he's town? Like I don't think marashu doesn't care how he looks (towny) I think he is playing with looking towny in mind. like a lot fo the time I think he gets binned as "we need to sort in the active players, who's scum in hiraki/mena/dram/dann/teach, huh? what's that? mara? lemme look. uhhh he's doing stuff, see he made a push here and a push there, I'll just town bin him until we sort out these people actively fighting"

3. Not at the beginning. But like I think if it doesn't seem like that person is very viable and you're like, not actively working on getting that person flipped it's a vanity. If someone is like a lot of people's second preference and you're trying to get a wagon going there, that's not a vanity. Even I wouldn't entirely be a vanity because there are some people SRing me. But like, I don't think we're ever guillotining dann today? so your vote would be an example of a vanity because that's just not happening, there's no one really scum reading him and no effort to actually get them flipped. it's just a place to leave a vote (look like scum hunting) without being implicated for being on a. town wagon.

I actually didn't like your vote on dann for the same reasons but you're like, more town overall so it outweighs that

4. & 5. I have nothing to say really

[Bell]

1. Ah, this is a scum hunting philosophy difference. I try not to use scum or town tells because I feel it divorces context. It might be good for statistical hunting, but I prefer whatever sherlock holmes does (I am not a very good scum hunter as you might have noticed).
2. I guess?
3. Thanks for defining it. Probably not, on Dan no. I only articulated one reason why I thought he was scum. I revisited his ISO and the feeling was vague but some more reasons started to come to me. But as of the last day or two I find it harder to believe he would be this facilitative if he was scum.

[Menalque]

1. I think one of the smartest things RC ever said was "don't look for what you think scum would do in games, look at what they actually do" and that's what I think this is, and why I think tells can be valuable when they're good. If was amazing at deduction/induction w/e then I would do things that way. But I'm not that good, and I think there are a couple of really good people who approach the game from a "look at what scum actually do in games" perspective and some of them have really, really high accuracy (like elli, RC)
2. I mean, do you disagree? Like do you get a vibe that he really doesn't care how he's perceived and just wants to introduce some fuckin scum to the choppy boi?
3. What were the reasons that were pinging you in the first place again?

[Jake The Wolfie]

..do you really wanna get into a theory discussion at E-1.
Wanna share a reads list??

Jake checks his pocketwatch.

"Oh, I would love to give each detail I could, but it is late. Here is a list I have stiched together:

Myself
Sir Penguin
Sir Menalque
Some of the riff raff, and classfull
Sir Hiraki"

"I have finally gotten motivation to do something difficult, keeping non-promises."

Jake took out a notepad, and a lit cigar.

"Firstly, I am placing myself at the top. It should be clear as to why.
I then place Sir Bell, for their willingness to listen to me. If they were evil, it would seem foolish to not have someone else pave the way to my execution.
Following behind is Sir Menalque, who seems to have reconsidered my body.
Then there is Sirs Grypyx and PenguinPower. In general, Mr. Grypyx has a certain.. pure aura around them."

He took a long inhale from the cigar, then let out a big cloud of ash.

"Ah, sorry for that. Strenuous metal activity such as making concrete statements is rather taxing. Where was I? Oh, right, our host, TemporalLich comes next. They are the first in the gray area, despite not being a player. Their intentions seem benevolent.
Next is Mr. flor. They are somewhat positive, but that may be just them stirring conversation.
The most extremely polarized person is null: Madam Testarossa. They seem to be double serving, and I read them as indecisive. Truly miraculous, how they both do everything and manage to get in the gray.
There are also some people I don't have a solid grasp on: Dunnstral and Gamma Emerald.
The first below null is Almost50- erm, Mr. 49. Their only vote was on 30, and they haven't seemed to really done anything, but inject metaphorical stuffing material into their transcript.
The teacher is a hair under Mr. 49. A few, actually. I can't exactly stab a dagger in what it precisely is, however something feels wrong about them. Perhaps it is 263.
Next is Mr. Marashu. Mayhaps Menalque is influencing me here, but I don't see much merit in their actions.
Sir dramonic has evil radiating from their body. Nothing feels quite right about them, such as their quick retorts that feel less like it would come from a genuine purity, and more of an evil disguising themselves as a purity, as if keeping an old facade up for appearances.
Finally, we have Sir Hiraki. They are evil. They avoided answering questions, but were quick to point out others' mistakes. They plant roadblocks to clear communiucation, by insisting that we find the answers ourselves. I will only move my vote if it might help me to wipe Sir Hiraki from our town."

Jake drew from the cigar again, and another black ash cloud from his dried, ashen lips billowed out, followed by him coughing, a few dried tar clumps spewing forth from his mouth. He took a breath, and sat back into a chair to finish his cigar.

"I do hope that this serves you well, even if I am gone."

[Bell]

Huh, thanks.
This seems like a real scum hunting perspective to me. I think he believes what he's saying, I don't agree with the tells he's using. If he's trying to hide his partner in that list, I don't see it.
The dramonic read is the worst of the bunch imo and there's nothing like an attempt to understand him in that read. Which could be scum.

[teacher]

Bell what are your reads?

[Bell]

Town:
Mena
Drammonic

Lean town:
Hiraki, Teacher,
weak lean town:
Gamma, Dann
Superweak lean town:
Jake.
Null: Marashu, Penguin.
Weak scum: Dun, Testa, Almost50.

[Jake The Wolfie]

"Sir Bell and.."

Jake seemed to have some trouble addressing teacher.

"Mr. teacher? The teacher? Dr. Mafia? Dr. Mafia."

He settled on Dr. Mafia, as maybe he had a theoretical doctorate in the Philosophy of Mafia.

"Sir Bell, could you add some elaboration on your list, and Dr. Mafia, could you order the townspeople based on your thoughts, preferably with detail?"

[Bell]

1. I think one of the smartest things RC ever said was "don't look for what you think scum would do in games, look at what they actually do" and that's what I think this is, and why I think tells can be valuable when they're good. If was amazing at deduction/induction w/e then I would do things that way. But I'm not that good, and I think there are a couple of really good people who approach the game from a "look at what scum actually do in games" perspective and some of them have really, really high accuracy (like elli, RC)
2. I mean, do you disagree? Like do you get a vibe that he really doesn't care how he's perceived and just wants to introduce some fuckin scum to the choppy boi?
3. What were the reasons that were pinging you in the first place again?

1. Empirical evidence and a good method of analysis are probably the most reliable way to hunt mafia.
2. I don't disagree that he's aware about how he looks. Announcing and declaring his intention is communication 101. It's just that everybody doesn't play maverick town.
3. Dannflorr sometimes wrote his posts like he was thinking out loud, it was something I saw in whitelion too. Though with whitelion it was every other post and there was a lot of other issues there. After reisoing I noticed a general trend of not trying to cross other players that made me think he was being polite scum. Teacher is sort of doing the same thing, but in contrast he seems to brush aside areas of conflict to retrieve what he wants, whereas I don't think that's how Dannflorr is approaching it. That said, I changed my mind, but it will be in the back of my head.

[Bell]

I also noticed or think I noticed but maybe I'm misremembering that he seemed unusually responsive to criticism or would adjust his play after someone mentioned a scum tell. Kind of like watching someone adapt in real time to people's preferences.

[Bell]

Mena has posted the most, he's wildly vacilitating emotionally but not in a way that serves scum at all, I don't even think the Jake vote was scummy even though, realistically, it should be. His reads have evolved the most in the game if you ignore hiraki and when you poke into his reads you find a rationale that's distinctly his own. He's created unique perspectives on all the players and I'm not sure that scum really need to do that.
Dramonic, I explained earlier. I just don't see it and dannflorr added to that.

Hiraki read only evolved over the last few days I keep getting hit over the head with posts that seem if not insightful, at least involved. His reads as Dann mentioned WERE stale, but then he quickly updated them in a process that was less "I have reads now" and more like he moved from A to B to C as he played. Which he might not have done under pressure. It could just be that he adapted to what people were saying and he eventually realized he was gunna die if he didn't do something more. mmm Maybe down grade to weak.
Mentioned Teacher, already, would add that he is looking at dramonic similarly to how I was before talking myself out of it. You can see who's to blame, but I don't think it was an unnatural or forced stance for dramonic to take if you see his opinions on the playerlist.

Going to walk my dog.

[PenguinPower]

..do you really wanna get into a theory discussion at E-1.
Wanna share a reads list??

Jake checks his pocketwatch.

"Oh, I would love to give each detail I could, but it is late. Here is a list I have stiched together:

Myself
Sir Penguin
Sir Menalque
Some of the riff raff, and classfull
Sir Hiraki"

This is a list. Yes.

What does it mean?

[PenguinPower]

That penguin is hurting my self esteem man

[PenguinPower]

Cool, we got a penguin. Can we keep him?

[PenguinPower]

So besides the advantage of knowing whether we hit scum or not (and I do think there's a decent chance of this slot flipping scum), having a wagon to analyze, and NKs, because this is multiball if we can end the day before the scum teams have things sorted, doesn't that mean there's a better chance they hit the other team rather than town? I remember hearing that it's usually to town's benefit to have a shorter D1, and 2 of the 3 games where I lost as scum had D1 end early, if I recall correctly. I'd imagine that especially applies in multiball.

You're a bit more likely to be lying about your innocence. That said, Gypyx wasn't terribly towny in those few posts, and PP's sheep onto me didn't look terribly good either, so there's also a fair chance of hitting scum there.

[PenguinPower]

I'm slightly uneasy with the timing of dann's big post on why I'm town but willing to let it slide mostly on the basis of his V/LA

No worries. Dann is town or at least it doesn’t matter to you.

[PenguinPower]

Jake, why so confident on the gypyx/Penguin slot?

Good question.

[Dannflor]

I also noticed or think I noticed but maybe I'm misremembering that he seemed unusually responsive to criticism or would adjust his play after someone mentioned a scum tell. Kind of like watching someone adapt in real time to people's preferences.

people get annoyed at me in real life because I tend to adjust my wants to fit the wants of others

it's a character flaw

although I'm somewhat trying to use mafia to get better at that + confrontation

[PenguinPower]

Then there is Sirs Grypyx and PenguinPower. In general, Mr. Grypyx has a certain.. pure aura around them."

This doesn’t actually say anything.

[Dannflor]

I could kill Testarossa tbh

[PenguinPower]

Kill, Dann? That will have to wait until we eliminate someone.

[Menalque]

I mean so could I but I don’t think testa is like noticeably more likely to flip scum than mara rn and we already have a wagon here sooooo

[Dannflor]

Sir dramonic has evil radiating from their body. Nothing feels quite right about them, such as their quick retorts that feel less like it would come from a genuine purity, and more of an evil disguising themselves as a purity, as if keeping an old facade up for appearances.

did you get a chance to take a look at the meta I posted?

the quick retorts aren't exactly unusual for dramonic, I'm curious where this read comes from