Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[Fredrick A Campbell]

They pointed out we were doing nothing; yet did nothing to change that. They tried to push me and then deflatedly backed off. They haven't posted a single impression or read on anyone. They have done literally nothing.

My finger of suspicion stays on Fredrick.

My post pointing it out was an attempt to change that.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

You say nothings happening while everyone else sees quite a lot. You bring up nothing is happening but offer no explanations of how that could be changed.

"Just, you know, do the thing!" -> "What thing is that even supposed to mean?"

That smells more like a cop-out than actual intent, to me.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

helly didn't like my playstyle surrounding my vote of Frederick, but otherwise had no real reason to offer that might make me back off.

I just didn't like using maths to discredit people. I scumread them for their interactions with me - trying to push me, then backing off and trying to frame me as null. They still have not pushed anything. They have not voiced their thoughts or susses. That's erratic, pointless and non town-helping play.

Who do you think is scummiest now, or are you not having reads yet?

I think you have behaved the scummiest of all the players who have posted. However, I don't really think that is as relevant as whom I think is most likely to be scum.

I actually said that I thought the question you asked me about who I thought was behaving the scummiest was irrelevant. I imagined you would have asked me who I thought was scum since that was to me more relevant or asked me why I thought who I thought was behaving the scummiest was irrelevant. Instead, you got all caught up about why I thought you were behaving the scummiest when I clearly said I thought it was irrelevant. For clarification this paragraph is about the "trying to push you" part of your post. As far as I am concerned, my saying that I thought you behaved the scummiest but that was irrelevant was clearly saying that behaving the scummiest does not mean the person was scum. I expected that you were able to see nuance. Since you can't, I'm not going to make this post brief and fill it with nuance, since it will be all lost on you.

I wonder if you getting this caught up about me thinking you behaved the scummiest is because you are a mafioso and are terrified that I somehow thought you are scum. Hence, my vote is on you.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

That last post I made is a mess. It's embarrassing. If I could, I'd delete it out of shame. My only defense is that I'm busy dealing with infuriating tech problems. Sorry that everyone has to see that trainwreck.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

That last post I made is a mess. It's embarrassing. If I could, I'd delete it out of shame. My only defense is that I'm busy dealing with infuriating tech problems. Sorry that everyone has to see that trainwreck.

Why do you think it is a mess?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

You say nothings happening while everyone else sees quite a lot. You bring up nothing is happening but offer no explanations of how that could be changed.

"Just, you know, do the thing!" -> "What thing is that even supposed to mean?"

That smells more like a cop-out than actual intent, to me.

You do realise that the first step to change the fact that nothing is happening would be to have people be more active. What better way to do this than to post something controversial?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Gee, you mean like the entire style of play I've been using from the start? That you've responded to by saying that nothing of note is going on?

And considering most of the players have had at least some amount of semi-activity by now... and plenty of AI activity, at that... Do tell me, what WOULD it take to make you wake up? Someone posting a wall of "I am scum, fight me about it"? Come on, Frederick, what is NOT boring to you?

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Gee, you mean like the entire style of play I've been using from the start? That you've responded to by saying that nothing of note is going on?

And considering most of the players have had at least some amount of semi-activity by now... and plenty of AI activity, at that... Do tell me, what WOULD it take to make you wake up? Someone posting a wall of "I am scum, fight me about it"? Come on, Frederick, what is NOT boring to you?

This game is not boring to me in the first place. When I said I have not seen anything of note, I meant that I have not observed anything that may be alignment indicative. I have lowered my standard to anything that may be suspicious because I am very unlikely to find anything that met the original standard.

As for what you were doing from the start, that, to me, was not exactly notable as it could come from either alignment. It wasn't even scummy because the intent appears to be to spark discussion. Hence, it wasn't notable. The responses to your post could, again, come from either alignment in my opinion. Hence, it wasn't notable.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

One more thing, plenty of AI activity? Really? I have not observed that and I don't believe I have missed a post.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

And as we all have discussed, in fact as you yourself stated, there is no useful distinction in your eyes between anti-town townie and scum play. In fact, you don't even like those categories at all, don't find them meaningful.

So what, precisely, did you expect to see in terms of alignment indicative behavior? Give me an example of something, anything, that is town or scum indicative. Come on. It'll be FUN.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

And as we all have discussed, in fact as you yourself stated, there is no useful distinction in your eyes between anti-town townie and scum play. In fact, you don't even like those categories at all, don't find them meaningful.

So what, precisely, did you expect to see in terms of alignment indicative behavior? Give me an example of something, anything, that is town or scum indicative. Come on. It'll be FUN.

A pattern of behaviour. That to me is more alignment indicative than any standalone post.

[MagikHorse]

MagikHorse, can I get your opinion of Italiano's play? My take is: emotionally charged reasoning presenting with logical face. His play is also centered on himself -- which manifests as Always Right (unwillingness to concede lost points, unwillingness to cooperate with other players, etc), and deeply entrenched reads (taking subjective view as objective truth).

Point of note: he seems to expect other players to also have self-centered play -- he distrusts other people changing their reads or conceding arguments, for instance. So this may not be AI, but I'm not necessarily interested in alignment sorting him based on the playstyle that /I/ see.

Accurate? Have I missed anything? Have I misread the playstyle in your eyes?

Thinking on it you're probably right here. I know can get really, really irked when someone is just that incapable of understanding what I'm saying, and probably fall into that same camp of not wanting to concede arguments when I'm certain that I'm correct as well. I'm not sure I've seen much of this distrust about changing reads or conceding arguments, but my eyes have rather obviously been elsewhere regarding him. An example of this would be nice.

Truth is still that there's a rather severe lack of actual logic in the reads hes made thus far, and I think it's probably better for me if I just ignore them altogether for now.

[MagikHorse]

I'm going to post my first public read: I think Frogsterking is town. If he isn't town, he's unreadable. I think his playstyle edges a bit toward anti-town overall, he's focused on game-solving over scum-hunting, but scum has no reason to give town a weapon like that paper. Arguably against their win condition to do so.

I'll note this read is conditional: his anti-town behavior is consistently game-solving (which comes from a town direction) and his towniness is based on a single event that gives away a lot of cover for lurker scum. It's a strong town read, but it isn't unbreakable.

By "game solving" are you talking about the theory talk? It certainly doesn't seem to be "game solving" as I know it, which would be trying to call the entire scumteam at once.

[MagikHorse]

Shelly can you explain what happened between 224 and 238 and what MUSH said to make you change?

I had always thought a No Eliminate didn't help town. I don't know how the two posts are relevant. #224 was talking about how Fredrick posted a load of nonsense. #238 was disagreeing Fredrick's no eliminate.

No elims essentially let the scum choose an extra kill. I have lost a town game before off of a day 2 no elim because the hammer was a few minutes late. That was not a very fun game.

From the context of the original post you've quoted it looks like it's asking for something between that range of posts, not those two posts specifically. Maybe take another look between them?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Different kind of gamesolving, MagikHorse: solving "Mafia" as a class of games. Game-theoretical perfect play, that sort of thing. I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's in line with that kind of thinking.

With regards to ItalianoVD, he questions why other players would change their mind more than why they had their mind set somewhere in the first place. He questioned why I had MY mind set on something, but he was using it as a wedge-driving element for arguing his case WRT the Shelly read. (Trying to say I was doing the same thing he was, essentially, either making me a hypocrite or forcing me to justify his play. The differences between our play didn't seem to matter.) He doesn't seem to quite understand people changing their mind or conceding an argument, which makes his own play in that area sort of NAI.



Frederick, who does not have a pattern of behavior other than van? Everyone else has a MARKED pattern. I can basically guess how any other player will react at this stage to certain theoretical events. In your case, it will probably be to be bland and non-committal, the way you have been from jump.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

...



Frederick, who does not have a pattern of behavior other than van? Everyone else has a MARKED pattern. I can basically guess how any other player will react at this stage to certain theoretical events. In your case, it will probably be to be bland and non-committal, the way you have been from jump.

You're right. I noticed that there actually has been enough information for me to ascertain the alignments of several players by now with varying degrees of certainty after answering your question of what I thought was alignment indicative.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I somehow failed to mention that I am looking into several ISO's now.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Well, with Frederick actually PLAYING the game, I just have two players I'm left wondering about for now.

<To the tune of Prude - Knife on Mars:> Hey man... Has anybody seen... rock?

Been awhile since we heard from someone whose total contributions were... to RVS me, promise to contribute, unvote me without explanation, and then handwave all questioning away like a rank fart.

Mm. Smelly indeed, and I wonder, O how I wonder, where our rocknil has gone. Should we send a search party? Did he get lost? I wonder.

[MagikHorse]

Van is AWOL again too, but at least they did something useful with their one post.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Van I'm more inclined to give a slight pass. Rocknil has been consistent, patterned in his lack of engagement. I wonder if he'll coast on minimal engagement, ramp it up, or get replaced out.

Van might be one of those "infrequent megapost" types. It feels possible based on what has been seen of his style, and that's a sufficiently valuable style of play. He's target three if Rocknil shapes up though.

[MagikHorse]

Agreed there. I'm hoping to see this engagement from Frederick as well, as I'd be voting him for his passiveness if he wasn't on the road toward shaping up.

[shellyc]

@mod can I request a rocknil prod? 36 hours have definitely passed (unless my maths skills have significantly deteriorated)

[shellyc]

Mush I am still townleaning for their actively gamesolving and scumhunting. However, I would like to hear why you are giving a townpass on almost all the active players.

[ItalianoVD]

I wanted to hear more and interact more with van and rock before posting my reads, but I guess now is better than waiting on them to come back. Her we go:

• van - not a bad first post from van. Problem is there is only one. I’d like to see his response to MagikHorses’s defense. Not enough info to townread, but his post was a very townie type post.
  
  shellyc - shellyc for the most part is playing the same as last game. She was scum last game. Got a lot of heat for giving my thoughts on shelly and thinking she is scum this game. As the day has gone on, I still don’t townread her fully. She has had some good posts that I agree with. I am 50/50 on her so I will place her at null for now.
  
  Redados - Aside from playing like he did last game, I feel Redados is town here. His questioning, logic, and posting has felt very town. He doesn’t go with the crowd and isn’t scared to disagree with anyone, SE or not. That’s someone that won’t be manipulated.
  
  rocknil - has not done anything in this game. His pattern can be looked at as newbscum at best and lurking newbtown at worst. Either way, it’s not helpful. Chances are he will be replaced. We’ll see.
  
  MUSHSHAGANA - Not really sure what to feel here. I initially townread Mush. I’ve mentioned already that I believe our personalities and playstyles clash. Most of her posts seem town, but I really think her push on Frederick is not in good faith. I will null read her with a slight town direction. Just when I want to solidify the town lean she says something that makes me think otherwise.
  
  MagikHorse - I mentioned in 188 that I felt one of MUSH or Magik could be shelly’s partner if she were to flip scum. With the understanding that I could be wrong about shelly this theory would be shot down at that point. Because I don’t have that information, I’m putting Magik in the same category as MUSHSHAGANA. He hasn’t said anything weird and has been somewhat careful in his responses, but I can’t solidly put him into an alignment yet.
  
  Fredrick A Campbell - Frederick has seemed like town from his posting and interactions with others. I think he’s been misunderstood by the town, especially MUSHSHAGANA. It was pretty clear what he was saying when he said a player can be scummy, but not necessarily be scum. Post 157 stated it perfectly in my opinion. The other things he is being scumread for I just don’t see them. They also aren’t alignment indicative imo.
  
  Frogsterking - Frogster has also seemed fairly town with his posting and interactions. I like what was given in 254. It was a very interesting and informative read and I think very good for the town moving forward.

With that said I’m placing my vote down.

VOTE: rocknil

[rocknil]

Well the recent development has been... interesting. I guess it is safe for scums to go for quiet players.