Open 791 | Forest Fire | Game Over

[tea leaves]

VOTECOUNT 1.3

[1] tea leaves :

Isis

[1] Isis :

tea leaves

That's right MT! This just means we really townread each other.

[tea leaves]

My first town experience with GL, he locktowned me early and we mindmelded quite a lot. My second, I couldn't figure out if it was him or someone else who was scum and sadly I chose incorrectly. So no help from past games.

In the game you chose incorrectly was he scum or town? And why isn't that help you can compare how he is to those games maybe.

[tea leaves]

I guess the Lion and Dunnstral are my picks for the arsonist right now because Gamma's last few posts were ok.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Morning Tweet]

My first town experience with GL, he locktowned me early and we mindmelded quite a lot. My second, I couldn't figure out if it was him or someone else who was scum and sadly I chose incorrectly. So no help from past games.

In the game you chose incorrectly was he scum or town? And why isn't that help you can compare how he is to those games maybe.

o i forgot to specify, we were TvT both times.

My point is i had very different experiences with him (or at least how I read him). My perception of him sticks out in my mind better than his play itself in those games -- and since I got two different results even though he was town in both games, I don't really have anything helpful to use from those experiences. It might be worthwhile to note the game we both started from the beginning I townread him pretty hard, but the one I replaced in to like 70 pages I did not

I know Guilty is a great town player but I don't know much about his scum game. I could try n do detailed meta analysis on those past games if i really wanted to but i dont think it'd be all that helpful and quite frankly not that fun. i think meta has its place in some instances but I like to references games i was personally in, and with these two, I have nothing useful that i know of

[Morning Tweet]

Dunnstral -

Basically no content yet. He has 10 posts, but around half of them aren't super game related. I'll grab the ones that are

What makes you suppose he's right on all his townreads?

I think Morning is town.
I think Clidd is town.
I think ydrasse is probably town.
I think GL is probably town, but actually maybe a little weaker than the other three.

Gamma, pine, dunn all null.

This seems opportunistic if farren is town.

Why does it seem opportunistic, dunn?

You put all the low posters in your null pile, which is actually just your scum pile but you're not calling it that

This combined with GL's scum in the actives comment made me wonder if there's an arsonist who felt the need to push back against Mena's early townlist. Dunn directly goes into a contrarian mode against Mena, whereas Guilty more subtlely implied there's scum in the active players (Mena was townreading almost all the activeish players).

I am curious as to why the only thing in the thread Dunn opted to comment at the time on was this. What made it the main thing that caught his eye, i mean. I'd like to talk about it more but I'm actually kind of missing what his point is too. What does putting the low posters in null and Farren in scum have to do with being opportunistic?

Spoiler: me sitting here with 5 posts while clidd has 102 and is pushing me but he's getting pushed instead:

I feel like Morning Tweet should be calling me out for my lack of presence in this game or something

This feels like WIFOM!! But you're right

Dunn, although you may be correct that I should be one to notice you're gone -- what was the point of pointing it out in 411? Does it make you think im scummy? I struggle to find what the intention behind pointing it out was

Unless you're scum in which case it makes you look good in an indirect way. It's like a way to compensate for being inactive-- you point it out yourself before I or someone else does and it makes you look good for calling attention to something potentially scummy about yourself unprompted

[Gamma Emerald]

I guess the Lion and Dunnstral are my picks for the arsonist right now because Gamma's last few posts were ok.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

Do you mind answering my question about your Farren read?

[Morning Tweet]

GuiltyLion -

Spoiler:

do you have any thoughts on who might be scum so far btw?

PoE is telling Pine and Dunn. But it might change if they post something good.

eh I don't like this post

how is it PoE based off of like two RL days, especially when it gives you the two lurkiest slots

Personally, my town-lock on him is basically due to the depth of thought that he had about my meta, which sounded to me as extremely genuine.

how do you think scum!Menalque would approach your slot, his thoughts about your meta have nothing to do with his alignment.

this is a bs reason for a townread and I especially don't like that it comes right after he softened up on you

VOTE: clidd

I think these reads are probably objectively correct -- Clidd used "PoE" pretty generously and I think the intensity of clidd's townread was really high for what it was. However!

Unsure if it really made Guilty think clidd was scummy. The bolded sentence ever so slightly felt like overdoing it. I think that clidd reciprocating a townread isn't something he's more likely to do as scum. Of course I could possibly see town!Guilty disagreeing with me on that, totally. But i do wonder if maybe this is a fake push

I don't follow, what do you mean by good questions? Like you don't think my questions were good?

I don't agree with you that Menalque is obvtown here and I think the reason you gave for it doesn't feel all that rigorous,

which I would expect more from you.

As either alignment Menalque can speak genuinely about your meta. It looks to me like you were happy with the conclusion he reached in 175 and townread him back as a result, I can't grok why you'd be confident he's town off that.

I also don't vibe with scumreads on the two lowest activity slots on the basis of PoE here, it's very likely that one of the more active posters is scum trying to establish a good foothold in the game

The bolded again kind of feels like Guilty is trying to connect what is i think is true (Clidd's reason for townreading Mena is weak) with a conclusion it sort of feels like GL wants (Clidd is scummy). Why would clidd's reasoning be better as town?

Again i can also see town!Guilty pushing the mismatch between Clidd's reasoning and confidence level in good faith. I suppose I just might be seeing it differently

The last sentence is one of the very first things that snapped me out of RVS posting. Much appreciated! I ask more about it here and to get some clarification:

Clidd has a tendency to reciprocate townreads, I've noticed. I wonder if it's a towntell of his, id have to check. But he does it very often from what i can recall

Why is it likely for scum to be in the actives as opposed to not?

the context for this was clidd saying he scumreads Dunn and Pine, and me calling him on that. I still think Gamma's town, so unless clidd is exactly right, then there's a scum in the more active posters.

I feel you're misrepresenting me in the last paragraph here, I didn't say "highly active" or anything about deepwolfing, I was making the point that someone who's actually playing the game is probably scum, because I felt potentially scum!clidd was avoiding causing any friction with people actually present in the thread. And as a rejoinder I'll ask you how often do you see in your games the entire scumteam with <10 posts by page 10?

GL reveals by actives he more meant "Not Gamma/Pine/Dunn", which makes much more sense than how i interpreted it. I don't think Guilty's intention was to shade the active slots, although i still disagree with his dislike of clidd putting Pine/Dunn in PoE.

I do wonder if that's all my interpretation of Guilty has been so far -- a fundamental disagreement about clidd which causes Guilty's analysis of clidd to seem in bad faith to me. Carrying on!

I don't like that Ydrasse pops in on page 12 and doesn't really bother to comment about clidd at all

idk I like tea leaves entrance, especially the point about Isis reaction to it being genuine - I had some reservations about Menalque/Isis slot but I think that read on it makes sense

VOTE: Ydrasse
I don't feel she's actually trying to solve

@Isis - yes she did, she readily gave a read on MT when prompted

I don't immediately hate the Ydrasse read. I'm unsure on her, im going back and forth. She's been a hard read for me so far

I think I agree with this view on the tea leaves entrance now.

yeah Farren's right, especially given tea saying that they were trying to claim townie. NAI when it's possible that tea leaves read the setup post as scum.

If tea had read the setup wouldnt they have realized that there is a role in addition to townie, and therefore been deterred from claiming townie instantly?

Her friendly tone and energy I thought looked a lil fakey at first but then I realized she'd probably be scared of appearing that way if she was scum and after looking through her meta I was right that she doesn't show it as scum but does as a townie sometimes.

can you cite the games you looked at? I've played with Ydrasse twice now (once where she was scum and once where she was town) and she feels completely different than both games.

She does feel somewhat different. She led with some pretty hefty reads in the game I played with her, and also a lot of analysis/questions in the scum game i checked out. She's less present here so far, but I dont know what to make of it yet.

In summary, strongly disagree with clidd analysis, it felt like possibly bad faith, but also I might just be in disagreement with GL on it which makes it look that way to me. The active players comment i BELIEVE was a misunderstanding on my part, it makes more sense the way GL explained it. I have no issues with his subsequent read on Ydrasse really. I'll need to check her out more. Not willing to eliminate guilty atm from what ive seen

VOTE: Dunnstral

[tea leaves]

Ok MT. I like the opinion on Dunnstral and I agree with a lot of them.
I think I already did in my read list Gamma or did you want more?

[tea leaves]

Unsure if it really made Guilty think clidd was scummy. The bolded sentence ever so slightly felt like overdoing it. I think that clidd reciprocating a townread isn't something he's more likely to do as scum. Of course I could possibly see town!Guilty disagreeing with me on that, totally. But i do wonder if maybe this is a fake push

I really like this part it's exactly what I was thinking about that bolded part too.

[Farren]

can you cite the games you looked at? I've played with Ydrasse twice now (once where she was scum and once where she was town) and she feels completely different than both games.

Can you elaborate on the differences here? Between Town/Scum/Here|Ydrasse?

[Farren]

Why did i devote so much time to the Isis read despite it being meta and therefore garbage? i was hoping modding a game with her in it will give me 100% read accuracy (since previously I'm maybe 1 for 3)

(((it didn't though)))

Meta's not garbage.

It's a tool. It doesn't produce foolproof results. But it can be indicative at times. Sometimes it can be indicative of the lengths people will go to to get results.

I was starting to waver on Isis; this makes me less inclined to do that.

[Farren]

Thinking the way Farren speaks is just him. I think there was one or two posts I liked from him early. I see he interpreted the tea leaves' 'townslip' similarly to how I did at first. Wonder what he'll think now

About tea leaves' Tree claim? I'm still holding it as NAI. I townread clidd, though, and haven't seen any reason to scumread tea leaves, so it hasn't really impacted my read there.

[Farren]

I guess the Lion and Dunnstral are my picks for the arsonist right now because Gamma's last few posts were ok.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

What about Gamma's posts were okay?

[Farren]

Question for both Gamma Emerald and Dunnstral: neither of you have voted at all yet. Why not? We're over halfway through D1.

[Morning Tweet]

Why did i devote so much time to the Isis read despite it being meta and therefore garbage? i was hoping modding a game with her in it will give me 100% read accuracy (since previously I'm maybe 1 for 3)

(((it didn't though)))

Meta's not garbage.

It's a tool. It doesn't produce foolproof results. But it can be indicative at times. Sometimes it can be indicative of the lengths people will go to to get results.

I was starting to waver on Isis; this makes me less inclined to do that.

I agree with you it isn't garbage. Meta absolutely destroys my scum game, or at least i assume it would cause I havent been scum in ages.

But i feel like when i use meta as reasoning for a read, it turns off a lot of people. That and sometimes it feels like meta is very interpretive, you can find things that prove your point while ignoring the rest if you're not careful (or if ur scum) -- and people are probably not going to hassle to do their own research so they largely just have your word to go off of.

It has its place though!

[tea leaves]

I guess the Lion and Dunnstral are my picks for the arsonist right now because Gamma's last few posts were ok.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

What about Gamma's posts were okay?

Tonally they just seemed good I guess they didn't feel fake.

[Ydrasse]

hi i have not been very active lately and i am sorry for that!

uh, to explain why i might feel/be acting different: it's more of a comfort thing than anything else? i feel at ease with the playerlist + the game as a whole right now so i'm more prone to like... be sort of chit-chatty and easygoing. it's probably not the best for like, finding scum but i'm also prioritizing my own enjoyment lmao. that and not having as much time as i would like to really go through this.

[Farren]

Tonally they just seemed good I guess they didn't feel fake.

Hard to argue with tone. But I'm definitely not seeing it. Can you elaborate?

[Farren]

I agree with you it isn't garbage. Meta absolutely destroys my scum game, or at least i assume it would cause I havent been scum in ages.

But i feel like when i use meta as reasoning for a read, it turns off a lot of people. That and sometimes it feels like meta is very interpretive, you can find things that prove your point while ignoring the rest if you're not careful (or if ur scum) -- and people are probably not going to hassle to do their own research so they largely just have your word to go off of.

It has its place though

That's definitely something you have to watch out for with meta-arguments: cherry-picking.

Meta's at its best when it's fighting arguments like "Town|Morning Tweet wouldn't do X!" - "Wrong; here's an example from a previous game of Town|Morning Tweet doing X."

I don't recall any cases of someone just flat-out lying about meta, but cases where people have an axe to grind and use meta to support it are another story.

[Farren]

hi i have not been very active lately and i am sorry for that!

uh, to explain why i might feel/be acting different: it's more of a comfort thing than anything else? i feel at ease with the playerlist + the game as a whole right now so i'm more prone to like... be sort of chit-chatty and easygoing. it's probably not the best for like, finding scum but i'm also prioritizing my own enjoyment lmao. that and not having as much time as i would like to really go through this.

I can definitely understand this.

Do you find yourself frequently *not* at ease with the player list and/or gamestate?

[tea leaves]

Tonally they just seemed good I guess they didn't feel fake.

Hard to argue with tone. But I'm definitely not seeing it. Can you elaborate?

Not really! I did just say ok it's not like I can really explain it properly.

[tea leaves]

Let me know what you thought of my thoughts on why GuiltyLion feels off to me when you can Ydrasse. Do you think I'm onto something here?

[Ydrasse]

hi i have not been very active lately and i am sorry for that!

uh, to explain why i might feel/be acting different: it's more of a comfort thing than anything else? i feel at ease with the playerlist + the game as a whole right now so i'm more prone to like... be sort of chit-chatty and easygoing. it's probably not the best for like, finding scum but i'm also prioritizing my own enjoyment lmao. that and not having as much time as i would like to really go through this.

I can definitely understand this.

Do you find yourself frequently *not* at ease with the player list and/or gamestate?

no, i don't feel not at ease in others but i have familiarity with people in this game more than i have others? the only time i feel like, uneasy is when i'm scum or when i have a ton of pressure on me/fear i might lead the town astray with what i do somehow. by virtue of this setup though these worries aren't really there tho!

[Ydrasse]

i think this is probably a self-centered view regarding guiltylion because he voted me, but it feels as if he's hyperfocused on a few small things that are at odds with being as cognizant of the game state as he is?

like, i guess it seems like a macro assessment of things (that i agreed with, no one pushing anything with vengeance) that zooms in onto me for reasons that don't hold much weight fmpov (the vote and me not trying to find the baddies) which seems... contradictory? in how to view the game as a whole.

how am I not being cognizant of the game state?

like from my view - I'm re-evaluating clidd slot and pressuring a slot that has been voting him the whole game yet not seemingly updating that read based on the content he's given. That leads me to decide to vote/pressure you. Why can you not imagine this coming from a town!GL perspective?

going back to this b4 i visit the Tea Points but i was saying you WERE cognizant of it, which was why the zoom in felt... jarring i guess? but like i said that is by virtue of it being on me i think. also again i think that the voting point is kinda pointless because... clidd was my rvs vote and not something i was actively pushing. i consider you to be my first i guess meaningful vote?

i can see it coming from a town perspective but admittedly i don't feel like... bad for voting you either/leaving it? i had other townreads which you weren't living up to personally. i am curious to see who else you have in your poe currently though because we seem to agree on the progression of things thus far.

also, what do you think of tea's points against you? (i'm about to respond to them but i wanna know your take.)

[Ydrasse]

@tea: i'm unsure if i'm biased or not in this tbh because i townread your slot's predecessor by virtue of the things that guiltylion is calling clidd/your slot out for. the main points about it that really stick with me are guiltylion coming in strong with the vote on clidd in 210 and the very last point in 221 where guilty hadn't asked why clidd had that poe.

the former point, though... do you think it makes sense for a town!gl to see that the game is kind of slow-moving and take it upon himself to try and start something or not? he does say he got carried away but i'm unsure if that's him backing down from something after people challenge it. s:

if not, i think that a scum!gl might see that quite a few people are being towny and exchanging trs with each other and want to try and disrupt/challenge that?

also as an addendum for my previous post @gl: i wanna clarify, was there any reason why you didn't ask clidd about his reads in more depth?