Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Scum is likely to be on EVERY wagon.

ALL of them.

Because they get VCA cred for being on scum wagons and they help their wincon by eliminating town.

Saying scum is likely to be on your wagon if you’re the closest to elimination is equivalent to saying the sun rises somewhere sometimes: it is blatantly true. It is meaningless. It doesn’t speak to your alignment at all.

Why, Shelly, are you so desperate to have people townread you if you know that an elimination is needed for end of day AND that you are the only one we can get a wagon on? Not that town wouldn’t want to survive, but smart town would far more aggressively want to avoid no-elimination. Because if town wins, that includes dead town. And you have made it clear that if you are town, you are aware of the danger of no-elimination.

Also, since you already claimed VT, it can’t even be that you’re a PR. So why are you trying to wiggle out of the place you have put yourself in?

I promised this post would be a play explanation, but that’s coming next. MORE HARDWARE FAILURES. Bad, bad week.

[shellyc]

Why, Shelly, are you so desperate to have people townread you if you know that an elimination is needed for end of day AND that you are the only one we can get a wagon on? Not that town wouldn’t want to survive, but smart town would far more aggressively want to avoid no-elimination. Because if town wins, that includes dead town. And you have made it clear that if you are town, you are aware of the danger of no-elimination.

I wasn't desperate to have people townread me. In fact, I now feel MagikHorse is warlocking me as scum. When almost all of town are pushing for my eliminate, MagikHorse is reading me as town and is trying to pocket me.

I am aware of this danger. I am fine with being eliminated. But just remember that I will flip town. I'm already dead now, basically.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Now, play explanation!

If I pressure someone and don’t tell them my reads, my pressure is increased tremendously. The default assumption is I have a scumread. It is also that that player has a TELL that I am reading off of and do not want them to be aware of and get rid of. If it’s true, the reason to play this way is obvious. If it’s untrue, it implies that there is a scumtell that is exceptionally strong and I’m putting the screws on. I am going to make you crack. The whole town will scumread you. Just you wait. This leads to town players floundering and scum players rapid fire trying to change their play styles to blindly avoid a scumread.

Sometimes, they actually do start to scumtell. Sometimes. Even if they don’t, the rapid, apparently /pointless/ playstyle changes provide information to town: this person is more concerned with how they look than finding player alignments, and that’s a scum playstyle.

If I then interact positively with that player, relief occurs. “Ah, I’m safe, I must be town read.” Town and scum react differently to these, more so even than to the initial pressure. Scum wants to get buddy buddy a bit more than town: town gets more wary or dismissive of me where scum wants to avoid the pressure and scrutiny and try to, even if not necessarily buddy me, certainly to play a more accommodating and cooperative game when it comes to me.

The longer I wait to share my reads, the more the pressure builds for both of these. Scum don’t feel safe until I sort them as town, town flounders and becomes defeated as hope of getting pressure off goes down. These aren’t universal, there is crossover, but they’re important information.

Another thing: STRONG baseless pushes tilt the play field. Everyone has to react to me and my target. We get a ton of associative information based on this, because town and scum have different world views when under fire: town sees baseless pushes, scum sees “oh damn I am scum telling and I don’t know about it”, or better still, “my partner is scum telling and is a weak link in the chain, I need to eliminate them as fast as possible”.

The best part of this is that it keeps working even when I tell you all about it. Because there is always the chance that I see scumtells that I am keeping under my hat until I’m good and ready to share them.

This is not necessarily pro town play, but it is exceptionally effective in Day 1, when information is nonexistent or open to interpretation. On later days, it loses effectiveness, creating noise where actual data exists. I imagine more experienced players would be less prone to it, also, though highly critical or anxious players may never be resistant to the style.

That is what has been going on. Read back through and tell me how many associative information with Frederick weren’t intermediated by my gigantic push, just by way of example! Ultimately, I believe more discussion and information came from this playstyle than would have otherwise been seen.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Oh, and for the record, my push on Frederick began as a weak scumread and now is quite strong. It wasn’t baseless in fact, just in appearance. There is no player who I scumread so high as Frederick in this game.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Multiple typing errors in my playstyle post, I apologize. On mobile for the time being as my laptop and Surface Pro AND a borrowed computer have all caught fire and died screaming. This is unprecedented, and in one case, nothing more than posting here and watching YouTube videos about gun disassembly was involved in the failure.

So you might have to get used to garbage composition and typing ability from me for awhile. Again, very sorry.

[MagikHorse]

I wasn't desperate to have people townread me. In fact, I now feel MagikHorse is warlocking me as scum. When almost all of town are pushing for my eliminate, MagikHorse is reading me as town and is trying to pocket me.

I am aware of this danger. I am fine with being eliminated. But just remember that I will flip town. I'm already dead now, basically.

Been there, heard this before back in Newbie 1912 when I defended Loopdan. I still stand that I gain nothing by "pocketing" a corpse, same as I did back then, unless you count extra attention and closer scrutiny.

I don't have as great a case as I did with Loopdan in 1912, but it boils down to recognizing your significant effort to get the game started and out of RVS, a multitude of realistic sounding emotional responses like your frustration with Frederick in 141 and 142, and the fact that I can't recall a legitimate case against you, with everything being based off of your playstyle or bad meta reads. I don't think I really understand a single point that's been lodged against you really, though it might be too late either way at this stage.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

I am under the impression you are not interested in explaining why you thought I scumread you from the start.

I have explained. I was under the impression that scummy = being scum. I am sorry for misunderstanding, but attacking me for a simple misunderstanding isn't helping town.

Fair enough.

UNVOTE:

[rocknil]

After reading all the posts, I’m scum reading shellyc and Frogsterking.

At first, shellyc starts attacking Redados. She probably thought he was still a noob player & could easily pressure him into a misslip which she could use to start a bandwagon against him. But nobody really thought she was onto something, so she dropped it for now.

Then, she started an argument with Fredrick A Campbell when he called her out for not helping town. She tried to downplay MUSH’s remark of Frogsterking not scum-hunting. It is also interesting that she kept Frogsterking in the middle in all her readlist. It seemed that she didn’t want to draw attention to him.

She really started wanting to appear as town so far so she voted herself without any provocation. After that She claimed VT which is convenient as claiming a PR will immediately get her CC’d. Her appealing to emotions has really backfired. I think her playstyle is harming the town more than any of her contributions. It is safe to eliminate her either way.

So far Frogsterking’s long post seemed to help the town. But most of it is game theory. With his background in psychology, he is telling us only what we want to believe. He is also subtly saying shellyc is town. Their budding up is rubbing me the wrong way.

VOTE: shellyc

If shellyc turns out town, then I want to go after MagikHorse. He is repeatedly town-reading shellyc which he would want to capitalize in the future. I know most of this post is just connecting the dots and making hypotheses but this is all I can say for now. I also acknowledge that I haven’t been contributing much. If the town thinks policy eliminating me is the best course of action, that’s fine by me too.

[Nahdia]

Vote Count 1.06

shellyc (3):

Redados

,

Frederick A Campbell

,

shellyc

, ItalianoVD, Frogsterking, rocknil

Frederick A Campbell (2):

MUSHSHAGANA, MagikHorse

MagikHorse (1):

LavarManos,

Frogsterking

ItalianoVD (0):

MagikHorse

rocknil (0):

Frogsterking

,

ItalianoVD

Redados (0):

shellyc

Not Voting (3):

rocknil

,

Frogsterking

, shellyc, Redados, Frederick A Campbell

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-08-25 15:51:33)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

[shellyc]

Final Defense

I started attacking Redados in the start of the game because I thought his

RVS goof

wasn't helping town. They were also being

unusually defensive

to me, especially comparing to the previous game Newbie 2019. I let off after a while after hearing his explanation. I don't regard Redados as a "noob" player.

Then, Fredrick came in and called me scummy. I misinterpreted that as regarding me as mafia. I also really didn't like his

apathetic and passive play.

That's why I pushed them. After looking at my own ISO, I do not see where I downplayed Mush's remark of Frogsterking.

I kept Frogster in the middle of my readlist because they simply have

not contributed much

. They've been practically semi-lurking, which makes me unable to read them.

Part of being a townie is being readable as town. I have tried to done this, and seems like I have not done it well. Besides, if I was scum, why would I not draw a PR and find the exact setup by

claiming a PR?

For example, imagine the setup is actually A2 (roleblocker / goon + tracker + jailkeeper). If mafia claimed TFN (town friendly neighbour) there, nobody would CC them as the setups tracker + TFN or jailkeeper + TFN make sense.

Rocknil, you have

lurked

the whole game, and sheeped this universal scumread, without much credibility to your arguments. I don't like that, I really don't.

I get it. We have to flip somebody. I am willing to die for the greater good, if you find it beneficial. But I am a townie and I will flip town.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Shelly, Rocknil and Frederick have filled my top 3. My former third place player isn't even worth listing right now.

Shelly, my argument when you said scum would be on your wagon should have made it obvious that at this very late stage with this little engagement, attempting to avoid this is basically anti Town. If not you, then no one, and I won't accept that, and if you won't either... Well, I simply don't understand why you are trying to avoid it instead of maximizing information for Day 2. The more effort we put into this pointless discussion, the less we can put into arranging for reads for later.

Given you were content to end the day early on your own elimination with a self vote, this is even more inconsistent and senseless.

I'll be legitimately surprised if you're town at this stage. It seems nigh impossible.

[shellyc]

Shelly, Rocknil and Frederick have filled my top 3. My former third place player isn't even worth listing right now.

Shelly, my argument when you said scum would be on your wagon should have made it obvious that at this very late stage with this little engagement, attempting to avoid this is basically anti Town. If not you, then no one, and I won't accept that, and if you won't either... Well, I simply don't understand why you are trying to avoid it instead of maximizing information for Day 2. The more effort we put into this pointless discussion, the less we can put into arranging for reads for later.

Given you were content to end the day early on your own elimination with a self vote, this is even more inconsistent and senseless.

I'll be legitimately surprised if you're town at this stage. It seems nigh impossible.

I feel obligation to defend myself against this attempted push. I am fine to eliminate myself, I have stated this so many times. Just because I've defended myself doesn't mean I'm trying to avoid my eliminate.

Prepare to be surprised, I guess...

[Redados]

I'm happy that Rocknil posted but I am absolutely baffled by the contrast between post 299 vs 457. I'm not sure if a scum partner wrote the post for him or if he just shaped up a little bit. Huge contrast.

RE ShellyC: MUSHSHAGANA perfectly said what I was trying to convey. Thanks Mush.

It's Monday. I would like to hear more of ItalianoVD's thoughts on current events.

Part of being a townie is being readable as town. I have tried to done this, and seems like I have not done it well. Besides, if I was scum, why would I not draw a PR and find the exact setup by

claiming a PR?

For example, imagine the setup is actually A2 (roleblocker / goon + tracker + jailkeeper). If mafia claimed TFN (town friendly neighbour) there, nobody would CC them as the setups tracker + TFN or jailkeeper + TFN make sense.

Maybe you didn't claim a power role because you role flipped at E-3 (and one of the votes was yourself??? you had two votes on you that were not you) so there was no pressure on you to flip other than perceived pressure (that Mush asked if anyone was against limming you.)

Also, maybe you didn't claim a power role because you didn't want to be vulnerable to a counter claim.

[shellyc]

Also, maybe you didn't claim a power role because you didn't want to be vulnerable to a counter claim.

I don't know but from my chat mafia experiences, scum would often claim a PR, and claiming PRs can get you eliminated, but you'd know the setup and would be able to target the PR.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

[shellyc]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

I just looked at the columns I guess? Why is me able to figure a way to claim without being CC'd a point worth questioning? How have I failed to make coherent points?

[Redados]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

On Day one of Newbie 2019, one of the masons claimed at E-1 and there was a discussion about claiming a power role.

Shelly is not a newb in terms of strategy, I just think she's playing in an anti-town way. I would personally give her some more credit here.

[rocknil]

I'm happy that Rocknil posted but I am absolutely baffled by the contrast between post 299 vs 457. I'm not sure if a scum partner wrote the post for him or if he just shaped up a little bit. Huge contrast.

I didn’t think I had any valuable things to say before. But given the situation, I won’t quietly go out to make scums game any easier.

[Redados]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

On Day one of Newbie 2019, one of the masons claimed at E-1 and there was a discussion about claiming a power role.

Shelly is not a newb in terms of strategy, I just think she's playing in an anti-town way. I would personally give her some more credit here.

To follow up on this, I think that if she's scum, the odds of Shelly being scum-coached here are like 10% whereas if Rocknil is scum, the odds of him being scum-coached are like 70%.

Rocknil, thanks for posting a bit more. Would you mind posting your thoughts on the full player list?

[Redados]

I'm happy that Rocknil posted but I am absolutely baffled by the contrast between post 299 vs 457. I'm not sure if a scum partner wrote the post for him or if he just shaped up a little bit. Huge contrast.

I didn’t think I had any valuable things to say before. But given the situation, I won’t quietly go out to make scums game any easier.

By the way, I hope that you are now aware that your level of inactivity is frankly unacceptable. We need information on all of the players to making voting and limming decisions. If you are town, it would be really sad to waste a policy lynch on you because you aren't posting.

Get in here, and give some more thoughts and reactions!

[ItalianoVD]

Placing someone at L1 or hammering without saying is not a good thing to do according to the site’s meta. I’m not sure if I agree with it or not. I caught heat for it last game and I guess it’s a thing, but I don’t think it’s as anti-town as it’s made out to be.

I’ve seen it in every game and in every game someone says something about it, like it’s a forgone conclusion that something is supposed to be said about it.

Could Frogsterking be scum? Sure?, could he be scum because of placing Shelly at L1 without notice? Not likely. I’ve come to realize in my short time here that the act itself is probably more nai than anything. I’ve actually seen more town do it than scum and probably because the scum know it’s a “scum tell”

[ItalianoVD]

Rocknil now voting for shelly with a long post saying why seems a little forced, but I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don’t talk all day, then you come in with a fairly decent reason for voting.

I'm happy that Rocknil posted but I am absolutely baffled by the contrast between post 299 vs 457. I'm not sure if a scum partner wrote the post for him or if he just shaped up a little bit. Huge contrast.

I didn’t think I had any valuable things to say before. But given the situation, I won’t quietly go out to make scums game any easier.

I will agree with Redados on this point: this sounds like something that could be told to a newbscum by an experienced one. Given this is the situation now, however, let’s hear more from you and see you interact more with the rest of the playerlist. This may be your playstyle, unfortunately you didn’t give us the opportunity to form that opinion.

[ItalianoVD]

shellyc had failed to make coherent thoughts throughout this game. How is she suddenly able to come up with the idea of fake claiming a power role?

I don’t know if that’s a fair statement. I wouldn’t say that about shelly at all. As a matter of fact I think shelly is more experienced in this game than she may let on.

[ItalianoVD]

It's Monday. I would like to hear more of ItalianoVD's thoughts on current events.

You know you don’t have to keep prompting me to post my thoughts. I will and do.

[Redados]

It's Monday. I would like to hear more of ItalianoVD's thoughts on current events.

You know you don’t have to keep prompting me to post my thoughts. I will and do.

Maybe it's all in my head but I feel like you've been much less active this game than last.

Not alignment indicative of course because real life stuff comes up and is more important. But I keep forgetting that you're even in the game.