Newbie 2023 - Hedgehogs - Day 3

[PlusJOYED]

Final readlist, hope it helps when I'm dead:

Ns - Town, slight scum lean near the start but I think they are town
Bell- Town
Shelly - Town
Andres - Town
The worst - 95% sure they are scum
Bulge - Scum mainly by process of elimination.

[Andresvmb]

also hedgehogs are adorable

also also hello andres!

Hello the worst! It’s been a while. I’ll catch up on your posts and see what I think.

[Andresvmb]

^we have crossed paths in maybe more than a few games on my home forum so that’s all this is.

[the worst]

we are scumbuddies irl. not in the game.

[PlusJOYED]

Also I just realized I never said hi to the worst, how rude of me

Hi the worst! I like your pfp, I've been meaning to watch kaguya season 2

Hopefully next time we're on the same team.

[the worst]

thank you, nice to meet you PlusJOYED! I like your pfp as well, i spotted it in the newbie queue the other day and thought it was really cute so I was excited when I noticed I'd replaced into a game you were in.

I also hope we roll the same team next time.

[Bell]

Baby step me.

[Andresvmb]

Shelly town - Less sure on this one myself. They seemed newbie and genuine and not afraid to push but also very agreeable, as Bell said. I don't want to elim them today when scummier people are walking around. I plan on rereading everything they said and analyzing them during the night phase, however.

This read actually makes me want to talk about something post-game. This is a note to myself.

Bell town - Have been very insightful and pro-town, posting often, asking the most useful town questions, and haven't really said or done anything scummy in my eyes. They come across as genuinely trying to solve the most. If they are scum, then at the very least, they are playing extremely well and only time I might vote for them currently is if they did a really scummy thing or if it was ELO with me, bell, and someone else with 1 maf. And in that case, I'd have to think long and hard before I voted Bell.

From what I can see I agree with this. Just to add fuel to the fire: what did you think of the way Bell reacted in a friendly fashion to my appearance, and then snapped at me for hedging on notscience?

Andres, well, seems too scummy to be scum, with the exception of being really agressive like a how I think a VT should be, and not posting as much, even with an ATE like you said. Since he is experienced, if he is scum, then he is acting like scum to get away with being scum, do you think the other newbies would WIFOM like that? I'd think not; most newbies would probably call him out on being scummy and wagon him with newbie majority; that gambit is too risky for anyone but a VT (I also did something similar as a town role) in a newbie game. So therefore, he is probably town.

I should add the caveat that while experienced, Andres' towngame is quite a lot stronger than his scumgame. He is liable to make "scummy" posts as scum and while I'm not sure his absence is directly alignment indicative, I think there's quite a ridge between his real thought processes, and the thought processes he takes as scum.

Sorry if this feels kind of contrary/defeatist; the point you made about someone self-aware trying not to come across as scummy only applies to players who have fairly strong scumgames and can basically make a flash decision on how they want to be perceived. To turn the table back on you, does this information make you reconsider your read on him?

(As an aside btw, please don't try to talk about reads on players as "likely vanilla" or "likely power role"; this is very much a ~teaching moment~ if Andres has already claimed but if he *hadn't* then those types of reads may help scum shorten their list of potential town power roles)

I’ll respond to this directly - I’ve seen a lot of posts about how I’m being slimy or Scummy, but not that much in the form of specifics outside of not being particularly present, which I tried to explain a little bit.

If you wanted my take on the game, and why I completely understand where plusJOYED is coming from - I feel like notscience is “dominating” the game, in the sense that a lot of what’s been happening revolves around notscience. So if plusJOYED has a TR of my slot, I can see how that influences their view of notscience to the negative, and they’re weary of trusting notscience (it’ll be worse if I flip and you see that I’m actually a VT).

I thought notscience was Town to start the game. I am much more cautious about the slot now 1. Because I can tell that they’re experienced but 2. Because they expressed intent on my slot, I revealed I was VT, and instead of say yeeting me there, they backed off, and said that it was related to AtE. But c’mon, you’ve seen me play, you know I can pull the stops and be far more convincing. Like read my posts around the time notscience backed off. I just find the whole thing to be a bit odd.

[Andresvmb]

@plusJOYED I’ll say that I think my Scum game is weaker than my Town game, but generally I think I’m a decent player overall. The thing about my Scum game though is that on my home site, the players know me to the point where I am probably an easy read, and not that hard to catch as Scum. So it takes some motivation away from playing Scum, or trying super hard. Here though, if I was Scum, I do think that you would find me more engaged.

[the worst]

Interesting.
UNVOTE: Andres
Actually, I still townread Andres and scumread you, I just didn't want to be direct. I just wanted to see your reaction when I put you in a situation where I would go after you next if Andres flipped town and died, and so you want to get rid of me the next day.

What?! After me and the worst read you as scum for the vote, you decide to unvote. This sounds like scum trying to rectify

No, I wanted to do something like that to gauge the replacements reaction to something scummy, called a slayers gambit. Though it was a bit risky to do, and I can see why you'd wanna elim me. On the bright side, once I flip town we'll have a mafia pretty soundly proven
VOTE: the worst

I've suggested unambiguously that I think his vote shift/unvote/revote is pushing a scum agenda, and that the lack of trajectory on Andres (who he hard townread then suddenly voted) is a lot more likely to come from scum.

without making an effort to explain what of his read/vote was real or fake he's trying to shift the blame from himself to "slayers gambit"; this is consistent with a mindset that can't afford to be wrong because it can't afford to be caught. town who were pressured as heavily as JOYED was and tried to see whether I was onto something wrt Andres and shift their vote and see what happens, once again, tend to have tangible thoughts about what they're experiencing.

It's not necessarily a guilty mindset, but it's *definitely* coming from a mindset that feels entrapped and thinks it needs to do something to get out of the current predicament. given I also think slayer's gambit is 1) easily fakeable as scum, and 2) fairly well-known to just not be effective or particularly helpful -- I don't think this is really something I'd ever view as a town indicator and I think it stands squarely where I would expect scum in JOYED's shoes to manoeuvre to.

[the worst]

@plusJOYED I’ll say that I think my Scum game is weaker than my Town game, but generally I think I’m a decent player overall. The thing about my Scum game though is that on my home site, the players know me to the point where I am probably an easy read, and not that hard to catch as Scum. So it takes some motivation away from playing Scum, or trying super hard. Here though, if I was Scum, I do think that you would find me more engaged.

I agree with this actually
vice versa I like rolling scum offsite quite a lot because there's a very low level of expectation for how I'll behave.

[Andresvmb]

@the worst Have you even seen me play Scum though? I feel like in the games we played together, I was always Town (and you were mostly Scum funny enough).

https://forum.mafia451.com/t/11p-white- ... r/2640/550
https://forum.mafia451.com/t/pokemon-ma ... /2240/1905
https://forum.mafia451.com/t/webcomic-mafia/2349/2921
https://forum.mafia451.com/t/josh-mafia-day-4/2086/4088

[PlusJOYED]

Final readlist, hope it helps when I'm dead:

Ns - Town, slight scum lean near the start but I think they are town
Bell- Town
Shelly - Town
Andres - Town
The worst - 95% sure they are scum
Bulge - Scum mainly by process of elimination.

Actually, I still scum lean NS a bit. I'm very certain The worst is scum, but Notscience might be town might be scum. I am serious in that I wanted to tunnel NS to get a reaction from scum though. If Bulge flips town it's probably NS that is Bella slot scum partner

[Andresvmb]

This is literal trash. You made me spend a minute of my life looking at this which doesn't even give a read on PlusJoy.

You say PlusJoy has shifted their read; but you say scum wouldn't be this bold. The pivoting to Andres might be scum trying to bus here - scum bussing now would get massive towncred.

yuck.

I don't think scum!JOYED put that much effort into really ensuring that they bussed Andres, no. despite signalling a townread on Andres, I don't think they *actually* want Andres alive.

Scum want VCA towncred. They really want it. If Andres flips red then PlusJoy will get ALL THE CREDIT for pivoting and ensuring Andres' death.

Shellyc, what the hell is this?? I am not at all convinced as to what alignment the worst is, but they’re actually spot on about plusJOYED, in the sense that it would be the weirdest bus ever. I know I’m not Scum so take it with a grain of salt obviously, but what bad Scum doesn’t even explain their thought process before voting a Partner? Nobody will truly buy the Town cred unless the vote is sustained, easily explainable, and not super late on the wagon. All those items have sailed for plusJOYED. They’re much better off just hard defending me instead of pivoting and *voting me*.

[the worst]

@the worst Have you even seen me play Scum though? I feel like in the games we played together, I was always Town (and you were mostly Scum funny enough).

https://forum.mafia451.com/t/11p-white- ... r/2640/550
https://forum.mafia451.com/t/pokemon-ma ... /2240/1905
https://forum.mafia451.com/t/webcomic-mafia/2349/2921
https://forum.mafia451.com/t/josh-mafia-day-4/2086/4088

I was like "hold on ... I was in these games ......." for a long moment there

yes I've read games you were scum in

[Andresvmb]

^haha yeah I’m sure. I also linked to some here.

[the worst]

I didn't like open the links off this thread because it's been a long day and I was bullied (nicely) into reading like 30 pages of catchup. but I do have some cursory familiarity with your scumgame and I think I'm reasonably qualified to say the things I've said.

[Andresvmb]

1365 - I did find Ouroel’s posting noteworthy, but in that tryhardy Town kind of way. Besides, there’s a lot of nonsense coming out of Ouroel early in the game. I mean they were talking about a potential third alignment and how they go about figuring that out when *clearly* there’s no third alignment here. And they had some speculation about Power Roles, and unless you think the Scum Team is composed of completely inexperienced players, I doubt a Scum would come out and so openly speculate about it given how bad that looks. So I almost filed them in my Town block and decided to mostly ignore them, if that makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

I didn't like open the links off this thread because it's been a long day and I was bullied (nicely) into reading like 30 pages of catchup. but I do have some cursory familiarity with your scumgame and I think I'm reasonably qualified to say the things I've said.

No agreed I do think you’re the only one who can make any statements about my Scum game here or meta about me in general. But I really don’t think you’ll find any posts here where you go yeah I’ve seen that from Andrés as Scum before because, well, I’m actually Town here.

[The Bulge]

Hi the worst if you haven't read up yet we are eliminating andre today

[The Bulge]

i woke up to Pages and im excited

[PlusJOYED]

Given current 1v1 vs me and the worst, I legit think town loses after they elim townie Andres and then scum the worst pushes me during Elo for a maf win. I think eliming me or the worst is the best call for the town.

[Andresvmb]

Can we get a vote count?

[beeboy]

yes

[Andresvmb]

@The worst I’ve been suspicious of that Nash slot for a while, and I think that whole pivoting around my slot from plusJOYED was straight up Scummy. I think that your entrance has strongly relaxed my negative lean on you/Bella.