Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[geraintm]

Hey Italiano, how's it going? Wagons are great and time to bring fresh energy here.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

is this a random vote because they've played with them in the past?

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

bashed this over the head a lot, but I hate this post and their response

gets into a weird back and forth with raya

that's it....
considering they have said they have read the game, this is just weird and disappointing.

[geraintm]

not mafia
I confess, I find them infuriating. their posts are a bunch of non sequiturs. all votes, then saying they weren't serious and then of course they were. it is impossible to get a read on them and no amount of prodding will get them to change.
if anyone else can get a read on them then i'd love to hear why you think they are town or mafia

[geraintm]

I think Frog is probably town

also moving my vote somewhere more useful
VOTE: Walter

raya next.

up until this post, their thoughts have seeminyl flowed consistently. I feel they placed their vote very obviously as a "I don't thinkt ehy are going to get lynched, but I want to be seen to have it somewhere doing something"

moving to walter was a logical conclusion on their previous posts though

There's no wagon on callforjudgement anymore while there is on Walter. Plus I can barely read judgements posts so I need to go back through later

So you voted for Walter because other people were voting for him?

No, I clearly stated in a post who the two people are I think could be scum (Walter and Judgement) and I explained why for each. I switched from Judgement to Walter because my vote was doing nothing and would be more powerful on a wagon

again, wants their votes to be on wagons to be doing something useful.

then a bunch of time interacting with nosferatu (whose flip out early in the game really did derail things for a while)

then gets into it with Call for judgement. very earnest posts

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

I get that. But one of your two scumreads has been close to elim for a few days now and you kinda just....opted to ignore the wagon as a whole until now. Which is cool, looks weird, but it's cool.

I explained it a bit before. It definitely is a bit of a weird case but I'm finding cfj very difficult to read properly and interact with which is kind of why I'm prioritizing Walter, and hoping to be able to get a better ready on cfj when there's more information D2.

wants to lynch walter and call for justice, but wants to do walter first because cant get info/read on CFJ. but they haven't been intereacting with walter recently, they weren't pushing that at all... feels odd

post 761 - flips on CFJ, now has them as town.

I thought before I did the read through I would find this slot fine. and it mostly was until I noticed how they were acting towards CFJ and their read on them. it was all very...confusing and didn't feel consistent, I dunno it just felt off. I thought they were someone I had similar reads to some of the things going on, so I have them pegged as the same as me. will note how they were with CFJ for later though

[geraintm]

I am trying to get through my read throughs on people I might run out of time before the end of today though and then unlikely to be able to do more over the weekend until monday

[Frogsterking]

@ frogster

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

I'd be more likely to consider joining your wagon if I understood why you scum read him.

#1

This is blatantly a post where you are trying to get someone else to make the case for you to join their wagon. you might not like the way I phrased it "asking for permission" but is the type of post people use where they want to move their vote to another wagon, cant justify it themselves so want to get someone else to write something so they can go "oh yeah, good point, I didn't see it that way, I will join you"

#2

you say I have said you throw a lot of scum reads around but you deny this

VOTE: Nosferatu
.

There was one post from sordoros I thought could be a scum tell because of its potential to be gloating:

Charmander just shot up to FoS #2 for his terrible defense of Nosferatu. Arguably it makes him even scummier than Nosferatu.

Frog, if nos is town, what are your scumreads?

It's difficult to imagine, I would start with Banana and Gamma for the strange townreads.

By the way guys at this point in time I have three serious scum reads and I'll disclose them another time. I also have one other very weak town read I'll ISO now.

VOTE: BananaCucho

I'm down for a Nosferatu or Banana lynch. I also scumread the CFJ slot because of his early interactions

There are three things I wanted to say this afternoon.

#1

I realized I have a feeling that Raya is scum

b]#3[/b] In the same spirit of being proactive and risk averse I'll point out a reason why I believe CFJ is scum

I don't have much new to add except that I'm tempted to do an ISO on the Walter slot because his alignment seems to be a point of contention.

Looker replaced into a slot I had a slight town read on and shelly replaced into a slot I was scum reading and on first glance neither has done anything yet that looks alignment indicative to me.

^^ to me looks like wants to see Walter as potential scum and shelly is scum

and you now vote for me.

for you to deny that you throw a lot of scum reads around and are constantly moving onto new targets is laughable.

but go ahead, explain how I haven't understood your posts...

#1

I've actually been leaning town on Walter if anything, I was interested in sorting Not Mafia with that question more so than Walter.

#2

Yeah I see a few scum reads mainly on CFJ, Nosferatu, Banana, and some mentions of Gamma and Raya as well. Banana and shelly are the same slot. That's a few scum reads and a couple scum leans or mentions. Recently I saw Nosferatu's posts as more townie and

[Frogsterking]

@ frogster

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

I'd be more likely to consider joining your wagon if I understood why you scum read him.

#1

This is blatantly a post where you are trying to get someone else to make the case for you to join their wagon. you might not like the way I phrased it "asking for permission" but is the type of post people use where they want to move their vote to another wagon, cant justify it themselves so want to get someone else to write something so they can go "oh yeah, good point, I didn't see it that way, I will join you"

#2

you say I have said you throw a lot of scum reads around but you deny this

VOTE: Nosferatu
.

There was one post from sordoros I thought could be a scum tell because of its potential to be gloating:

Charmander just shot up to FoS #2 for his terrible defense of Nosferatu. Arguably it makes him even scummier than Nosferatu.

Frog, if nos is town, what are your scumreads?

It's difficult to imagine, I would start with Banana and Gamma for the strange townreads.

By the way guys at this point in time I have three serious scum reads and I'll disclose them another time. I also have one other very weak town read I'll ISO now.

VOTE: BananaCucho

I'm down for a Nosferatu or Banana lynch. I also scumread the CFJ slot because of his early interactions

There are three things I wanted to say this afternoon.

#1

I realized I have a feeling that Raya is scum

b]#3[/b] In the same spirit of being proactive and risk averse I'll point out a reason why I believe CFJ is scum

I don't have much new to add except that I'm tempted to do an ISO on the Walter slot because his alignment seems to be a point of contention.

Looker replaced into a slot I had a slight town read on and shelly replaced into a slot I was scum reading and on first glance neither has done anything yet that looks alignment indicative to me.

^^ to me looks like wants to see Walter as potential scum and shelly is scum

and you now vote for me.

#3

for you to deny that you throw a lot of scum reads around and are constantly moving onto new targets is laughable.

but go ahead, explain how I haven't understood your posts...

#1

I've actually been leaning town on Walter if anything, I was interested in sorting Not Mafia with that question more so than Walter.

#2

Yeah I see a few consistent scum reads mainly on CFJ, Nosferatu, Banana, and some mentions of Gamma and Raya as well. Banana and shelly are the same slot, not two different reads. That's a few scum reads, a couple town leans (possibly three if I include Walter) and a couple scum leans or mentions. Recently I saw Nosferatu's posts as more townie and

Sorry, I hit submit or something on accident while I was typing 779 in response to your post 774. Here's the rest of it:

#2

...and for D1 with 13 players that's a pretty normal range especially in a lobby like this where there are multiple players that are difficult to sort.

#3

I think this is a pretty superficial assessment. Another name for this behavior is scum hunting. If you're going to continue giving superficial or straight up inaccurate assessments and throw shade in my direction I'm very happy to leave my vote on you for D1, especially since you haven't done anything townie yet either.

I have more to say this.

[Frogsterking]

There are three things I wanted to say this afternoon.

#1

I realized I have a feeling that Raya is scum, however, I believe the feeling is caused by the implicit bias of her current avatar which is a wolf, and because of the mafia-like game Werewolves I associate wolf with scum. I view this feeling as NAI and the behavior of the Raya slot as a whole as null because I haven't seen her do anything which would imply to me her alignment is one way or the other.

#2:

In the posts below, I believe I'm beginning to understand what geraintm is referring to. If I'm correct, geraintm is saying he doesn't like it when I or others post an opinion without an explanation or a call to action because it enables scum to formulate their plan ahead of time.

My Taylor vote was a joke but now it’s serious

You have no explanation, but the vote is serious?
This is why you are so infuriating

By the way guys at this point in time I have three serious scum reads and I'll disclose them another time. I also have one other very weak town read I'll ISO now.

I wish people would stop being so cryptic. If you have an opinion then say, don't save them for later when they can be tailored to the game state. That is just potentially scummy...

This leads me to believe that, because of his experience and his choices to play in the way that he does, as well as the meta information quoted in #3 of this post, geraintm is an extremely proactive, defensive and risk averse player who prefers to remain a null slot during the course of the game, and because he has played this way consistently this game I'm reading him as null unless he changes his behavior.

#3

In the same spirit of being proactive and risk averse I'll point out a reason why I believe CFJ is scum ahead of time even though there's no real impetus for me to do so.

In the same post written about geraintm which was helpful in understanding his motivation there's something extremely odd I noticed:

Did you know? part 1: geraintm's vote on Not_Mafia was his RVS vote (#29). It hasn't changed since.

Did you know? part 2: Although the fact in the previous paragraph would be a horrible scumtell coming from almost anyone, it is

not

a scumtell coming from geraintm. In Mini Normal 2153 (where geraintm was VT), geraintm made an RVS vote in that game's #62, and didn't unvote or place another vote until that game's #1377, almost 11 votecounts into that game's day 2 (despite having moderate scumreads elsewhere in many parts of day 1). So I think any tells on geraintm based on bizarre voting behaviour are invalid. (geraintm sometimes moves his vote sooner, but only upon having a very strong read, which he normally doesn't D1.)

day 1 I am nothing but shade. you know it will take a lot on day 1 for me to actually vote someone.

Did you know? part 3: geraintm seems to use the same RVS gimmick every game. This might produce interesting scumhunting information if this fact were generally known (because posting at the critical post count is, in effect, volunteering to be D1 Hated when geraintm is playing). However, I think it's highly likely that the playerlist as a whole was unaware of geraintm's tendency to breadcrumb the algorithm by which he'll subsequently cast his first vote, meaning that it's effectively random (weighted by posting frequency) and provably unmanipulatable (possibly even to the extent of bypassing the rules on provable randomness?). Perhaps if geraintm outright stated "I will vote for the person who posts #22 [or whatever] for the entirety of day 1, check my meta, I do this every game", the gimmick would produce more interesting information for scumhunting purposes; as it is, it's basically just a method of playing that's anti-town, but repeated so consistently that it isn't a scumtell for geraintm in particular.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Did you see anything odd?

I did: the subject of the post, the player geraintm, is not matched with the element that increases the win condition of the game we are playing; the vote at the end, which is on a different player Tayl0r. This seems odd because normally when we vote a player the subject of the post is in some way attached to that player.

It appears as though CFJ is using a specific lying strategy: providing too much information.

huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

this feels bollocks

Strange entrance by looker but that is one post.
I love reading.
655, is just really weird in that it sorta shows like cfj said a lack of reading/ disengagement.

nope, going to call you out too. nothing about looker's post was odd

frog's post 662 - I don't get this. feels a load of hot air, no real substance

Nosferatu - your posts stink.
you tag raya as scummy - twive, and don't go anywhere with that thought.
random vote on the banana slot
random vote on shelly

how bored are you? are you just randomly interacting with this game? I see no content from you at all. be better

at italiano - I don't get why you single out Not mafia as being ok>

has ayone played with call for judgement before? are their very earnest posts typical? do they normally post like this as town/hide when scum?

oof yeah i really wanna lynch in cfj, shelly, enigma, or walter. like really really. they cant all be scum but this is some serious opportunism, id be surprised if there arent at least 2 scum in there maybe even all three if walter is scum.

don't like posts like this. caling out a third of the game and saying there is likely to be a scum in there...well duh. it feels like a post they can circle back later to to say "look, I always thought they were scum"

i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

nope you don't get to do this. you don't get to say "we aren't allowed to talk about my very cryptic post". why are so many people in this game being like this??

You didn't understand my motivation here in this post, and also gave it a superficial assessment. Assuming that you're town then I need to be able to understand you or establish some kind of common ground or we won't be able to discuss anything. Especially since you're playing in a way that makes you a very null read.

Your response makes it appear as though my thoughts about what you were trying to say were way off-base, and you offered no additional follow-up.

My thought process is that you're a dedicated null player that appears to be skim reading my posts or unable to understand them, are resisting my attempts to understand you, are shading my attempts at scum hunting, and I will BW you now on D1 to make my life easier.

You asked for more examples or evidence of how you're not reading or understanding my posts so here's another one:

thoughts on frogster

had a strong red on nosferatu earyl game, loads of long posts.
then switched and said gamma and banana were...but not the associated long posts with evidence.

back to long log posts on rc enimgma

528 - vague post hinting at scum but not disclosing any actual reads

weird read on CFJ about them being scum, but not wanting to lynch. instead focussing on nosferatu and banana

662 - raya is now scum

734 - wants to look at walter in case they are scum (and later asks permission from not mafia to join that wagon)

overall, they are throwing a lot of scum reads around. sticks with them but quickly moves onto the next shiny thing. not impressed

(tryng to go trough these in order of number of posts)

In #1 of 662 there was more to that paragraph than "Raya is scum now." I believe that you just read the first line and glazed over the rest.

In the post I quoted above, in all the areas you complained about long posts, I also believe you did not even read those same posts at all, since you were even able to provide a summary of them here. If I supply an explanation for a read, you say the post is too long and you skip it, if I don't, you say that I don't supply explanations for my reads. That's shading and could even be a scum motivation coming from you.

[Frogsterking]

In your ISO in 769 you

*weren't

able to provide a summary of my posts which you complained were long, and were clearly skimming and making incorrect statements about the shorter posts you did read.

[Frogsterking]

Have I provided enough examples that you're unable to understand my posts geraintm, or would you like more? And would you like me to sort them for you chronologically or in order of significance?

[Frogsterking]

Also I do think that Nosferatu's recent posts are much more pro town, so at this point while I'm still skeptical of Nosferatu I'm happiest with where my vote is currently at because of my earlier read on Banana.

Have you gained any new reads/insight into the shelly/Banana slot since #488? That's quite an old read, so I'm wondering if anything's happened since to confirm your view or to make you re-evaluate (especially as your read on Gamma, in the same post, seems to have evolved somewhat).

I have not seen anything I felt was AI from the Banana/shelly slot since Banana's town read on Nosferatu which I believed was inauthentic. The idea that my read on Nosferatu has evolved and I'm more open to his being town just makes that moment look even worse for the Banana/shelly slot imo.

You're also very correct that my read on Gamma has evolved somewhat, I did not share because it went in a circle and I wasn't sure if my observations would be helpful. I currently view the slot as null with a slight scum lean if anything, mainly because I believe his play would be very simple to execute from a scum pov.

I noted that his pushes on other players this game seem impotent, like here:

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Explain to me how we will lynch three players on D1 and I will.

We won’t. Now explain how anything scum does isn’t going to be in service of an agenda on the macro level

I believe if his intention here were to push me for scum hunting purposes this was pretty weak and easy to fake on his part (and subsequently on mine), he could have at least anticipated my first response in 620 and come up with something better. I don't think the idea of having a priority of elimination is beyond Gamma's grasp.

[Frogsterking]

@cfj

I had a question for you as well, when you were doing meta on geraintm was there any difference in his attitude toward the other players between alignment? Namely is what I'm observing about his skim-reading and shade toward me this game consistent with his behavior in the past as town and/or scum?

[Nosferatu]

How is it not scumhunting? It's a timeline used to introduce and explain a scumread

its not like they had a genuine dialogue and from those interactions he deduced some pro-scum behaviors or something that are actually somewhat difficult to fake as scum, he literally just gave an interpretation of a series of events.

if you think scum can't fake that i would just have to say either u have a low opinion of cfj's scumplay or u just havent played with a lot of good scumplayers.

[Looker]

• I'm surprised there's not more consolidation of wagons before deadline.

---

VOTE: geraintm

If geraintm is scum, what purpose do you feel his vote on Not_Mafia serves? Do you feel it's a vanity? Is it distancing? Do you feel it's so that he doesn't have to jump on the bigger Italiano wagon?

[geraintm]

Quick check in.

@frog - I havent been scum since I think my first game back in a newbie game. I've been vt game after game after game.
@looker
I havent yet seen anyone strong enough ibread as scum to vote for, so have left my random vote ob. I am always slow to move votes around

[GeorgeBailey]

Votecount 1.12

ItalianoVD(4)

~ RCEnigma(62), shellyc(70), callforjudgement(61), Nosferatu(82)

WaltertheDunce10(2)

~ Raya36(55), Not_Mafia(25)

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(76), Frogsterking(41)

callforjudgement(2)

~ ItalianoVD(64), Looker(53)

shellyc(1)

~ Tayl0r Swift(39)

Not_Mafia(1)

~ geraintm(64)

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ WaltertheDunce10(70)


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

MOD REMINDERS

shellyc and RCEnigma have been prodded!

[ItalianoVD]

@frog - I havent been scum since I think my first game back in a newbie game. I've been vt game after game after game.

But that doesn’t mean you can’t be scum right? Occam’s razor and all that. That’s not really your defense is it?

[geraintm]

No, it was pointing out they wouldn't find a game where I had been acting differently because I was scum, which I believe they were asking.

[ItalianoVD]

At the moment the people I am townreading are of course Walter, now Taylor and Nosferatu.

Reason being, I know what I am and they both did things that they had no reason to do if they were scum imo.

Nosferatu saw the weirdness of people regarding cfj (namely Raya and Taylor) and pretty much backed me up. It doesn’t matter how you read me (null, town, scum) the fact that you did this regardless of where your vote is at the moment is pretty major.

BTW...you having fun on my wagon yet?


Taylor’s 715 post ... particularly this:

i think there is a third possible explanation though, which is why i moved my vote away from walter. i dont think im going to vote for walter or italiano today, but will expect more from them on subsequent days.

This shows me she is paying attention and had no reason to highlight a third option if she was scum. CFJ threw out the bait and she didn’t take it.

Sorry if these reads are personal and can’t be seen by others, just giving my thoughts. That’s it for now though, my other reads have been re-evaluated due to today’s wonderful events.

[ItalianoVD]

No, it was pointing out they wouldn't find a game where I had been acting differently because I was scum, which I believe they were asking.

Oh okay I see. I thought you were saying that as a response to being scumread.

[Gamma Emerald]

At the moment the people I am townreading are of course Walter, now Taylor and Nosferatu.

Reason being, I know what I am and they both did things that they had no reason to do if they were scum imo.

Nosferatu saw the weirdness of people regarding cfj (namely Raya and Taylor) and pretty much backed me up. It doesn’t matter how you read me (null, town, scum) the fact that you did this regardless of where your vote is at the moment is pretty major.

BTW...you having fun on my wagon yet?


Taylor’s 715 post ... particularly this:

i think there is a third possible explanation though, which is why i moved my vote away from walter. i dont think im going to vote for walter or italiano today, but will expect more from them on subsequent days.

This shows me she is paying attention and had no reason to highlight a third option if she was scum. CFJ threw out the bait and she didn’t take it.

Sorry if these reads are personal and can’t be seen by others, just giving my thoughts. That’s it for now though, my other reads have been re-evaluated due to today’s wonderful events.

okay
any suspects rn?

[Frogsterking]

• I'm surprised there's not more consolidation of wagons before deadline.

---

VOTE: geraintm

If geraintm is scum, what purpose do you feel his vote on Not_Mafia serves? Do you feel it's a vanity? Is it distancing? Do you feel it's so that he doesn't have to jump on the bigger Italiano wagon?

Check the meta CFJ did, I believe geraintm always votes semi-randomly D1.

[callforjudgement]

@cfj

I had a question for you as well, when you were doing meta on geraintm was there any difference in his attitude toward the other players between alignment? Namely is what I'm observing about his skim-reading and shade toward me this game consistent with his behavior in the past as town and/or scum?

I could only find one remotely recent scumgame for geraintm, Newbie 1978. So it's hard to get a good meta read based on that.

There are some potential style differences between town and scum geraintm when it comes to reading people, e.g. this post by scum geraintm looks quite different from the typical reads post by town geraintm, but they aren't large enough for me to be sure there's a pattern or to see how this game compares with the previous games. geraintm's usual town playstyle seems like it would be quite easy to imitate as scum, anyway.

• I'm surprised there's not more consolidation of wagons before deadline.

I'd like to repeat this point: there are a large number of people on small wagons, and with less than 2 days left, we're going to need to consolidate somewhere in order to avoid a mad rush at the end (something that, in the most recent game I played, lost the entire game by itself by outing too many town power roles). Players who are on small wagons need to either be much more active in swaying people to join them (e.g. like Frogster is currently doing with the geraintm wagon), or at least make it known which of the larger wagons they would move their vote to, so that we can get a good idea of who the consensus reads might be. (Note that although scum can usually steer a consensus/deadline choice away from hitting scum, they often end up making themselves obvious in retrospect when they do so.)

@Mod:

I will be V/LA for much of tomorrow (Saturday).
(I will be back online well before deadline, though.)

[Gamma Emerald]

I think I'm good where I'm at

[callforjudgement]

@ frogster

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

I'd be more likely to consider joining your wagon if I understood why you scum read him.

This is blatantly a post where you are trying to get someone else to make the case for you to join their wagon. you might not like the way I phrased it "asking for permission" but is the type of post people use where they want to move their vote to another wagon, cant justify it themselves so want to get someone else to write something so they can go "oh yeah, good point, I didn't see it that way, I will join you"

I read this as Frogster trying to get Not_Mafia to play more actively / less cryptically. If it had succeeded (and it was unlikely to do so), that might have been beneficial to scum (assuming Walter town) by giving an easy excuse to join the Walter wagon, but there are more obvious benefits to town in terms of reading both players. So I don't think #745 is particularly scummy.

[callforjudgement]

Scum should kill Italiano

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

Have you changed your mind about #105? If not, why do you want the scum and a hypothetical vig to aim at the same target?