Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Isis]

Spare Votecount 1.4

Hectic--------------------------

Elements-----------------------

Chara---------------------------

(2) Chara, catboi

Prism --------------------------

PookyTheMagicalBear -------

(2) PookyTheMagicalBear, Elements

catboi--------------------------

(1) Hectic, Morning Tweet

Morning Tweet----------------

(1) Tayl0r Swift

Tayl0r Swift -------------------

Lavender ----------------------

redtea --------------------------

Tanner -------------------------

CantLynchAPuppy-------------

(1) CantLynchAPuppy

Not sparing:

- (4) Prism, Lavender, redtea, Tanner

Fight Votecount 1.4

Hectic--------------------------

(3) Tayl0r Swift, catboi, Prism

Elements-----------------------

(3) CantLynchAPuppy, Chara, Morning Tweet

Chara---------------------------

(2) redtea, Hectic

Prism --------------------------

(1) Lavender

PookyTheMagicalBear -------

catboi--------------------------

Morning Tweet----------------

Tayl0r Swift -------------------

(1) Tanner

Lavender ----------------------

redtea --------------------------

Tanner -------------------------

CantLynchAPuppy-------------

(1) Elements

Not Fighting:

- (1) PookyTheMagicalBear

Nahdia snapped their fingers, and the lights go out, and with another snap, they're up again. The temple is gone, and now everyone is in the middle of a dark forest, the bright spotlights now dimmed.
"The chosen hero had to brave the wilderness to find the true destiny in the underground!!" Nahdia cried, now dressed like a survivalist with leather chaps and a wide-brimmed hat.
Hectic noticed how dark it was, and he didn't like it. "Woof!" The huge hulking monster yelped.
He glided over to catboi, who was in the only bright area in the room. He gave catboi an affectionate lick, nearly extinguishing him, then reached with his tail and grabbed him, dangling him in the air above everyone. Everything was better lit, but catboi was rather frightened about hanging upside down. Everyone looked different.
The cameras honed on catboi, and he felt like he should speak. "Um, welcome to the wild woods, what would you like?!?!?" he sputtered off the top of his head.

---

With 12 alive and unspared, it takes 7 votes to make a decision.
The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-09-13 23:27:24)

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

[Chara]

258 sucks, but that's old news now i guess. AI non-mech talk has been happening for a whie since before that post.

redtea: re: 266, what sort of act do you think Puppy is playing right now? also, what's your read on Elements?

[Chara]

If catboi had arrived to the conclusion that sparing is the better EV for town by far, and then said this comment, I'd trust it less. After all, even if catboi is hurting his team EV-wise by revealing the correct town strategy, if he can grab that spare, it's huge for them.

But he's not. He's telling us to fight. Which is helping town EV by far. If catboi is scum, the towncred he is grabbing here is useless-- he's not going to get spared, and now he's going to have to explain why he never gets nightkilled

you're comparing catboi's decision here to a hypothetical that would never occur. the EV is in favour of fighting here, catboi can't change that.
i understand the part about it being beneficial for scum not to out this math (provided no townie wouldn't do the same math), but comparing it to a scenario where the EV says to spare and catboi tells us to spare (and therefore this universe's version of catboi is even townier) doesn't work when that scenario doesn't exist.

and your last point about the towncred being useless... towncred isn't useless for scum in normal games, so why is it useless just because we're not sparing today?

i cannot think of a better way to word this, haha. in fact, this was so hard to work through in my head that if you still disagree with me after reading this i'd rather shake on it and agree to disagree than go down the rabbit hole of logical argument that exists in a possible future.

also, i do like catboi for town, just not for this specific thing.

[Morning Tweet]

you're comparing catboi's decision here to a hypothetical that would never occur. the EV is in favour of fighting here, catboi can't change that.
i understand the part about it being beneficial for scum not to out this math (provided no townie wouldn't do the same math), but comparing it to a scenario where the EV says to spare and catboi tells us to spare (and therefore this universe's version of catboi is even townier) doesn't work when that scenario doesn't exist.

and your last point about the towncred being useless... towncred isn't useless for scum in normal games, so why is it useless just because we're not sparing today?

i cannot think of a better way to word this, haha. in fact, this was so hard to work through in my head that if you still disagree with me after reading this i'd rather shake on it and agree to disagree than go down the rabbit hole of logical argument that exists in a possible future.

also, i do like catboi for town, just not for this specific thing.

Well yes-- if we were in that hypothetical scenario and catboi were to have made the same "I wouldn't point this out as scum" comment, then I wouldn't have townread it nearly as much. I more just meant that "I wouldn't townread you for this if sparing were the actual route, but it isn't so here".

Catboi getting townread in this fighting strategy is vastly less useful for scum than it'd be in the sparing strategy. I think the sparing route would easily justify sacrificing knowledge since scum benefits huge from just 1 person in heaven

sure, I guess towncred is always helpful. i just don't *think* catboi sacrifices the chance of us going down the spare route (there was a decent chunk of people who wanted that after all) to gain it. I suppose he could have, though, since still getting townread is still beneficial to his team. it's tough!

[catboi]

Nifty hat. Well, don't mind me, just going to be opportunist scum parking on you knowing you won't really respond for three days.

Meh, the mopiness is

annoying

but I don't know that it's

scummy

and now that I take off the rage-goggles, even though we disagree on our approaches he seems to be making attempts to legitimately evaluate people

@Elements:

In your last Undertale setup game, as town you came out arguing hard against people wanting to go a pacifism route and argued about the downsides it had with regard to the lack of flips from voting. What's different now?

The vast majority of posts have just been about sparing. Only the one saying me, hectic, and pooky should be spared was pacifism indicative.
I also like to think I have matured as a player since then and my play style has changed. But that's self meta so feel free to ignore it

Ah, I misunderstood you. Still seems rather cavalier to have just casually suggested sparing 3 people so early on.

i didn't think i'd ever have the urge to vig 1/3rd of the players in a given game, but it's actually happened.

Well, 25% of the players in the game right now are scum, but it's probably not all the non-contributors. It's never that easy...usually.


m(*- -*)m Still haven't had time to put in a proper reading of the game, apologies. Hope to get to that soon~

[Chara]

happy scumday Tweet!

i don't have much to say to your response, besides that i think i agree with you more. i was just concerned you'd locktowned him for it, but i can see that isn't the case.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

Meh, the mopiness is annoying but I don't know that it's scummy and now that I take off the rage-goggles, even though we disagree on our approaches he seems to be making attempts to legitimately evaluate people

[Hectic]

HURT: redtea

[Hectic]

HURT: Pooky

Tell me

, do you have any reads on anyone? You haven't stated a single one all game.

[Morning Tweet]

Why'd you hurt redtea first, Hectic?

[catboi]

Meh, the mopiness is annoying but I don't know that it's scummy and now that I take off the rage-goggles, even though we disagree on our approaches he seems to be making attempts to legitimately evaluate people

I just disagreed vehemently with the things you were arguing, is all. I'm over it now, though.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

This flower scares me

[Hectic]

I gotta say it is a bad take on Hectic's part. The spreadsheets show that he wasn't baselessly echoing Prism for cred but legitimately corroborating.
Both catboi and prism are well tr'd at this point though so I suppose it doesn't really matter

[Hectic]

Why'd you hurt redtea first, Hectic?

[Hectic]

This flower scares me

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

[Chara]

there's the Hectic i wanted to see.

[Prism]

Yeah this vote is staying for a bit. I'd use "bad" over lackluster to describe his read on me given that Hectic saw a much, MUCH more open/friendly Prism as town and one that laid a million small traps like that as scum, even if he says he doesn't remember much. The pivot to Pooky is playing it super safe and objective with choosing what to push on.

Getting reads out of Pooky has value but I really think this is Hectic struggling to get his bearings, and not in a good way.

[Prism]

I'm also really skeptical of #302 but that one is a lot less tangible.

[Hectic]

Hectic saw a much, MUCH more open/friendly Prism as town

I was intentionally waiting a little before mentioning it.

[Hectic]

The pivot to Pooky is playing it super safe and objective with choosing what to push on.

[Hectic]

His approach on me this game is vastly different to how he's ever treated me. The last ~5 games I've played with him he's scumread me. He was town in 4 of those, and scum in 1. My last game with him is the one he was scum in, and in that he mentioned in the scumchat that he knew how to manipulate me by playing to his townmeta, and proceeded to scumread me as usual... the FOOL, that won't ever work on me again.
So, this is very new to me. He doesn't even have a reason to townread me, he's doing it in a memey "Hectic is always town" way. I think there's a chance he's polarising his approach from his last scumgame so that I think he's town here, but he's overdoing it.