Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[catboi]

190 shows him making some kind of reads. the logic on prism is fairly iffy, though. 302 is a read of some kind. 311 pressuring pooky is reasonable? like I had been thinking similarly, he just said it before me. 316 as the explanation for the vote-flip makes sense? little moment of indecisiveness that is maybe townie. Yeah, I kind of crapped out that read, it's not as strong as I thought but it at least shows an attempt?

too sloppy to remember to include post links, edit by way of post

[Chara]

the first bit of 371

is

a strange read now that you point it out. Prism's townleaning your sitting back and letting things go this early in the game rings a little weird. Prism's extrapolating what your scum approach should be into what they think it

would

be without scum meta on you is a leap, as is the thought that Prism seems to be unconsciously treating me as town. which isn't a bad thing, except it's Prism who has every reason to be very suspicious of me.

i also thought it strange how Prism replied to my question of if they would meta-dive me. that they would only do it if they had reason to believe it would be helpful. this is after stating in this game that their failure to meta me in the last Undertale lead to a loss.

[Chara]

i'm going to sleep. i thought about not saying anything at all to see how things go but knowing me i'd forget.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

if i was scum i wouldve built a large enough townbloc by now to win d1 with a chara spare

[Prism]

I thought you were calling me out for slacking on this game and I liked that but the more I read this the more I got weirded out and confused. Like, the idea I couldn't be lazy and unmotivated as mafia is...puzzling. This read on me doesn't make a lot of sense. (*´ω｀*)

I thought about something similar on my nightly drive. I could see your priority being on other games. I don't buy the lazy and unmotivated theory as much.

[Prism]

the first bit of 371

is

a strange read now that you point it out. Prism's townleaning your sitting back and letting things go this early in the game rings a little weird. Prism's extrapolating what your scum approach should be into what they think it

would

be without scum meta on you is a leap, as is the thought that Prism seems to be unconsciously treating me as town. which isn't a bad thing, except it's Prism who has every reason to be very suspicious of me.

I agree it's a leap. My angle comes from thinking through what a bad/good play is for someone who constantly takes stock of position. Whether we have the same idea for what is more likely to win is is yet to be seen.

i also thought it strange how Prism replied to my question of if they would meta-dive me. that they would only do it if they had reason to believe it would be helpful. this is after stating in this game that their failure to meta me in the last Undertale lead to a loss.

To be blunt, it's a lot of work with that pays off maybe half the time at best for a single slot. I have no reason to really rush it here. There's a reason I didn't do it in the first game: I love meta, but I have to suspect I'll find something useful. Otherwise, it's after I've exhausted all other options. I've already done a minor amount the first time I read you when I got the proactive idea and compared it to Undertale, a game I was already familiar with. Reading a game from scratch takes me a very, very long time: I average about a page of a game every 10-15 minutes.

[Prism]

A better way to state my stance is this: I'm fine townleaning catboi because I think the way he's playing is a losing game if he's scum, and totally fine if he's town.

[catboi]

(^-x-^*) so, reviewing the thread, starting from the shortest ISO because I am lazy:

Lavender:

already said I think there's a chance she could just be scum who doesn't know how to fake it. I actually really dislike the tone of 373. However, I feel as though she'd be a waste of a vote today. evaluate on day 2.

Tayl0r Swift:

the sequence from 71 and 79 to 172 bothers me, actually, now that I look at it - the turn from casual mechanics talk and "hey guys spare me" to complaining when things turned to serious strategy talk feels a little like someone who was trying to skate by but got turned off once they realized things weren't going to be so easy. Tone in later posts is oppositional which is maybe slightly town but that early sequence is kind of offputting

Morning Tweet:

More surprisingly mech-heavy start that I'd remembered. 179 suggests "surely at least one scum bothers [talking mechanics]" but I'm not sure she goes anywhere with this idea. 181 is an awkward response to taylor. Not sure I like the vote on elements in 230. Reads are just kind of tilted toward the more serious-ish players which is maybe a little surfacey? but I guess I could understand the inclination. Hard to get a handle here.

Tanner:

226 is a pretty good post. His annoyance at inactivity is townish. I'd say I lean town on him but want to see more.

Elements:

Did you know Elements has 33 posts in this game? I was surprised. hard to glean much of anything from them. I actually kind of like 97? It's a strategy post so I should maybe fade it a little because it could be made by someone of either alignment, but it looks like an honest evaluation where he looks at fighting and doesn't see the upside given the similarity of outcomes (it's incorrect, though - if you fight chara the game becomes 7v2 white flag which is incredibly good chances for town.)


Probably going to fall asleep soon but my gut-level take is that I was having a hard time getting a sense for redtea from his early posts, but his more recent posts look very town and are very much reminding me of our recent town game together so that is a very good sign (also in that game he was suspected early for being awkward/fillery before becoming more town, so hey, consistency)

[catboi]

A better way to state my stance is this: I'm fine townleaning catboi because I think the way he's playing is a losing game if he's scum, and totally fine if he's town.

f a i r

[Lavender]

Say that’s just how I play (￣ ￣)b
Here’s a line I always say: Ask me any questions and I’ll answer ^_−☆
Now here’s a new thing to state: If I miss a question do tell I (´▽｀)

[Elements]

my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

Rlly Hectic?
This is so slimy. It's like a hagfish after tying itself in a knot.
It's autological and I don't like it.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[CantHateAPuppy]

prod dodge! sorry guys, was trying to enjoy the weekend, i'll post more later and catch up and all

[Morning Tweet]

my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

Rlly Hectic?
This is so slimy. It's like a hagfish after tying itself in a knot.
It's autological and I don't like it.

Really? my first thought would be that post is hard to come up with on the spot as scum

[Morning Tweet]

Spoiler: reads

High town, fuck it //

catboi

Town Lean //

CantLynchAPuppy
Prism

Town Incline //

Tanner
Chara

Upper Null //

Hectic
Redtea

Lower Null //

PookyTheMagicalBear
Tayl0r Swift
Elements
Lavender

Spoiler: disorganized notes

I like Puppy’s questionnaire entrance to the mod. I like that he reached the conclusion that fighting is better for us (and found it to be very poetic!). I like Puppy’s “this is town af x2” comments to Tanner. Still generally tone towning on Puppy as i read through (such as 239 242 and so on).



45 is very good by catboi (wanting to hold off and see who would try to get us to spare before sharing analysis). 67 reveals a little nuance that maybe we wouldn’t have talked about if catboi didn’t bring it up, that a spare in 3v2 Xylo is good.

370 - Yes to Pooky/Lavender having a decent chance. I think catboi saying taylor is too antagonistic for scum is a fair enough point but I don’t think i share it. Hm, it’s tough. I think he’s arguing that in good faith



Don’t know what to make of Pooky so far. I think his strategy is wrong but if he’s scum here I don’t think he realistically thinks he has a chance of persuading the players using facts and logic whereas he’s doing *feelings*. It could be a facade so he doesn’t have to play, but if that is so, I don’t think it’s a wise one for pooky!scum. I almost want to think it’s genuine (212).

243 is a fair post from town!Pooky if he’s seriously trying to go through with his sparing strategy -- wouldn’t want the nightkills to ruin it. But also gives him an excuse not to post game-related content sooo.

Again though Chara is right (359) that we shouldn’t narrow our focus to make it harder for scum to NK, they’ll be able to figure out decent kills probably anyway and our cooperation will be hurt severely. I still don’t know if Pooky is being genuine here. It’s a somewhat easy facade to hide behind, he doesn’t have to give reads or anything!



I forgot to write stuff on Prism up til 263 somehow but i think i touched on him in thread already. 263 again I objectively think taylor comes off scummy, he gives her points she should be talking about but isn’t. It’’s a good post.

344 feels extremely genuine to me *i think*. Something about it



Sort of slightly want to townread Tanner for the pocketing comments but I love being paranoid of pocketing as scum personally. Hm hm hm!

I just spent a good 30 seconds staring at 226 by Tanner. I sort of like it but also sort of don’t. 3/4 of his lines have a really noncommittal tone “even though i think i shouldn't be giving townpoints for 146, i still kinda do?” , “i'm lowkey feeling nervous (abt Pooky) due to the push for spares”, and “puppy is feeling different than he did in that game, so guess i'm townreading him!”. I’m not sure if this means anything or not for Tanner but I’m keeping an eye on it.

I made a post that sort of just mirrored consensus townreads for the most part, and Tanner TR me off it since our reads were similar. I do feel like that’s not enough to townread me but I am unsure if that’s towny that Tanner is quick to townread me, or if it’s not. Ugh -- I think I like Tanner

I think I objectively agree with Tanner HURTing taylor after her “ill play when you all start.” post. If taylor is town here though i probably don’t award nearly as many points -- I think she’s objectively scummy there, an easily justifiable vote for both sides.

347 - I think taylor/Pooky/lavender is a viable scumteam but it’s also probably way too easy. I still agree with the idea here though (He words it as a “what if, unless?”)



I can relate to calling something towny but then when asked to explain it, having no reason whatsoever (chara 77). I’m probably more likely to ensure I have reasoning as scum but that’s just personal experience. 126 is objectively correct by Chara I talked about it somewhere else why i like it.

297 is a really smart post if Chara is scum. It comes off as really towny don’t it. (Hectic points this out).

Think Chara was probably more correct than I was about my catboi townread-- i do like that it went out of its way to engage with me on a read that it already shared with me anyway

I agree with Chara that Prism is probably oversuspecting Hectic so far.



HECTIC. I think he has somewhat decent-looking reasons for wanting to take the spare route, but when you take everything into account, it’s a worse route. Most of the points look good (#80) although actually the 5th point is a little forced. I think in the pacifism route, if we spare 4 and game doesn’t end, we are in super dire straits. I feel like Hectic downplays how screwed we are in that scenario but again I’m not sure if that’s forcing the spare route on us or just really wantinfg to do the spare route and focusing on all the bright sides.

Hectic’s #94 ignores that if we screw up 3 fights in a row, we’re probably not going to attempt a 4th fight (##IMPORTANT: Am I understanding the strategy right here?). Yes, we lose if we fail 4 fights, but we don’t lose if we do 3 misfights and then correctly spare.

I think Hectic’s point on Prism!town in 190 is good. There are a lot of points in my notes where I'm copying Hectic's townreads for people, either after the fact or he points out something i noticed as well (like that Chara post Elements finds scummy just above)



118 is super bold by scum!Elements (he suggests we spare Elements, hectic, and Pooky). Hm.



I relate heavily to redtea so far this game but I do not assign townpoints from the opening probably NAI. I think their response to my confusion on Elements was probably the correct side of that debate. I think they are correct in that Pooky’s nomination scheme won’t work well.

Think i lean town on their contributions on page 16



Taylor is sort of going for the “I don’t care about the mech talk call me later”, I am unsure as to whether it’s genuine or scum dodging having to participate. I feel like i’ve seen this sort of unwillingness to play act from scum before but i can’t quite remember where.



Lavender no opinion on. I have looked at Crossfire which has town them in it, I noticed they almost got eliminated early but didn’t. They seemed to have difficulty getting into it, so probably NAI at least. 291 they ask for us to not expect too much and say “Baddie lavender doesn’t exist”. Nothing making me feel particularly better about them yet

I do sort of feel like I'm in my usual trap of "More content" -> "More opportunities to towntell". However, I think if I have a townread incorrect, maybe they're scumChara or maybe scumChara's flip helps me find them. That's the hope anyway. Since we're not sparing, scumChara really isn't going to hurt us much, is she? Scum has to avoid fighting her and we get her flip anyway in a couple of days if we don't fight her.

[Morning Tweet]

Chara should be one tier higher, forgot to change that

If i could send 4 people to heaven without nightkills I'd go catboi -> Puppy -> Chara -> ..... Tanner or Prism maybe tossup but probably Prism

[Morning Tweet]

Would probably stress over the spares a lot harder though because then scumChara poses a threat and I usually have at least one TR wrong

I think I know how to evaluate Lavender down the line probably and there is little info to be gained if we misfight them

Elements had like 1 or 2 posts that gave me pause about him.

Pooky I think is engaging in a heavily losing strategy if he's scum

VOTE: Taylor

[Morning Tweet]

HURT: Taylor

[Tanner]

what if... the scumteam was... exactly taylor/lavender/pooky .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless.. ?

pooky and lavender have decent chance, taylor being standoffish in an antagonistic way is mayyybe town? lavender probably doesn't know how to fake it and pooky is riding the spare thing way too hard

i can mayyybe buy that reasoning to put taylor a bit more towards town than earler, but like... the bar is on the floor.

re: redtea's 384:
yeah, i liked it in a sense of "mindmelding with someone = more likely town", same as with 302. i get that it's a possibly Easy approach. but i don't think i can in good faith scumread him for it when i myself am also struggling to get my bearings in this game, and it's not because of the colour of my role PM. (inb4 i get informed this is a scumslip on my part)

also learn how to link posts

Lavender:
already said I think there's a chance she could just be scum who doesn't know how to fake it. I actually really dislike the tone of 373. However, I feel as though she'd be a waste of a vote today. evaluate on day 2.

why would she be a waste of a vote on day one? do you think it's gonna get *easier* to evaluate a nothing slot on day two?

Here’s a line I always say: Ask me any questions and I’ll answer ^_−☆

what's your opinion on the 17 pages that have happened so far?

okay i see tweet has posted like... a lot of stuff, i will Try to read it

[Morning Tweet]

FUCK i forgot to use the post tags in my post. I don't always use them but i was gonna do it this time

you know what

you know WHAT

Spoiler: reads

High town, fuck it //

catboi

Town Lean //

CantLynchAPuppy
Prism

Town Incline //

Tanner
Chara

Upper Null //

Hectic
Redtea

Lower Null //

PookyTheMagicalBear
Tayl0r Swift
Elements
Lavender

Spoiler: disorganized notes

I like Puppy’s questionnaire entrance to the mod. I like that he reached the conclusion that fighting is better for us (and found it to be very poetic!). I like Puppy’s “this is town af x2” comments to Tanner. Still generally tone towning on Puppy as i read through (such as 239 242 and so on).



45 is very good by catboi (wanting to hold off and see who would try to get us to spare before sharing analysis). 67 reveals a little nuance that maybe we wouldn’t have talked about if catboi didn’t bring it up, that a spare in 3v2 Xylo is good.

370 - Yes to Pooky/Lavender having a decent chance. I think catboi saying taylor is too antagonistic for scum is a fair enough point but I don’t think i share it. Hm, it’s tough. I think he’s arguing that in good faith



Don’t know what to make of Pooky so far. I think his strategy is wrong but if he’s scum here I don’t think he realistically thinks he has a chance of persuading the players using facts and logic whereas he’s doing *feelings*. It could be a facade so he doesn’t have to play, but if that is so, I don’t think it’s a wise one for pooky!scum. I almost want to think it’s genuine (212).

243 is a fair post from town!Pooky if he’s seriously trying to go through with his sparing strategy -- wouldn’t want the nightkills to ruin it. But also gives him an excuse not to post game-related content sooo.

Again though Chara is right (359) that we shouldn’t narrow our focus to make it harder for scum to NK, they’ll be able to figure out decent kills probably anyway and our cooperation will be hurt severely. I still don’t know if Pooky is being genuine here. It’s a somewhat easy facade to hide behind, he doesn’t have to give reads or anything!



I forgot to write stuff on Prism up til 263 somehow but i think i touched on him in thread already. 263 again I objectively think taylor comes off scummy, he gives her points she should be talking about but isn’t. It’’s a good post.

344 feels extremely genuine to me *i think*. Something about it



Sort of slightly want to townread Tanner for the pocketing comments but I love being paranoid of pocketing as scum personally. Hm hm hm!

I just spent a good 30 seconds staring at 226 by Tanner. I sort of like it but also sort of don’t. 3/4 of his lines have a really noncommittal tone “even though i think i shouldn't be giving townpoints for 146, i still kinda do?” , “i'm lowkey feeling nervous (abt Pooky) due to the push for spares”, and “puppy is feeling different than he did in that game, so guess i'm townreading him!”. I’m not sure if this means anything or not for Tanner but I’m keeping an eye on it.

I made a post that sort of just mirrored consensus townreads for the most part, and Tanner TR me off it since our reads were similar. I do feel like that’s not enough to townread me but I am unsure if that’s towny that Tanner is quick to townread me, or if it’s not. Ugh -- I think I like Tanner

I think I objectively agree with Tanner HURTing taylor after her “ill play when you all start.” post. If taylor is town here though i probably don’t award nearly as many points -- I think she’s objectively scummy there, an easily justifiable vote for both sides.

347 - I think taylor/Pooky/lavender is a viable scumteam but it’s also probably way too easy. I still agree with the idea here though (He words it as a “what if, unless?”)



I can relate to calling something towny but then when asked to explain it, having no reason whatsoever (chara 77). I’m probably more likely to ensure I have reasoning as scum but that’s just personal experience. 126 is objectively correct by Chara I talked about it somewhere else why i like it.

297 is a really smart post if Chara is scum. It comes off as really towny don’t it. (Hectic points this out).

Think Chara was probably more correct than I was about my catboi townread-- i do like that it went out of its way to engage with me on a read that it already shared with me anyway

I agree with Chara that Prism is probably oversuspecting Hectic so far.



HECTIC. I think he has somewhat decent-looking reasons for wanting to take the spare route, but when you take everything into account, it’s a worse route. Most of the points look good (#80) although actually the 5th point is a little forced. I think in the pacifism route, if we spare 4 and game doesn’t end, we are in super dire straits. I feel like Hectic downplays how screwed we are in that scenario but again I’m not sure if that’s forcing the spare route on us or just really wantinfg to do the spare route and focusing on all the bright sides.

Hectic’s #94 ignores that if we screw up 3 fights in a row, we’re probably not going to attempt a 4th fight (##IMPORTANT: Am I understanding the strategy right here?). Yes, we lose if we fail 4 fights, but we don’t lose if we do 3 misfights and then correctly spare.

I think Hectic’s point on Prism!town in 190 is good. There are a lot of points in my notes where I'm copying Hectic's townreads for people, either after the fact or he points out something i noticed as well (like that Chara post Elements finds scummy just above)



118 is super bold by scum!Elements (he suggests we spare Elements, hectic, and Pooky). Hm.



I relate heavily to redtea so far this game but I do not assign townpoints from the opening probably NAI. I think their response to my confusion on Elements was probably the correct side of that debate. I think they are correct in that Pooky’s nomination scheme won’t work well.

Think i lean town on their contributions on page 16



Taylor is sort of going for the “I don’t care about the mech talk call me later”, I am unsure as to whether it’s genuine or scum dodging having to participate. I feel like i’ve seen this sort of unwillingness to play act from scum before but i can’t quite remember where.



Lavender no opinion on. I have looked at Crossfire which has town them in it, I noticed they almost got eliminated early but didn’t. They seemed to have difficulty getting into it, so probably NAI at least. 291 they ask for us to not expect too much and say “Baddie lavender doesn’t exist”. Nothing making me feel particularly better about them yet

I do sort of feel like I'm in my usual trap of "More content" -> "More opportunities to towntell". However, I think if I have a townread incorrect, maybe they're scumChara or maybe scumChara's flip helps me find them. That's the hope anyway. Since we're not sparing, scumChara really isn't going to hurt us much, is she? Scum has to avoid fighting her and we get her flip anyway in a couple of days if we don't fight her.

There if you wanna dive into it, you can now. I don't know if it's worth ppl's time because my reads are always very wonky but if you want to discuss anything I will probably be able to remember what it is since i wrote it down. Writing helps me remember

[Hectic]

[Tanner]

yay, so many words, my eyes are glazing over.

Sort of slightly want to townread Tanner for the pocketing comments but I love being paranoid of pocketing as scum personally. Hm hm hm!

[snip]

I made a post that sort of just mirrored consensus townreads for the most part, and Tanner TR me off it since our reads were similar. I do feel like that’s not enough to townread me but I am unsure if that’s towny that Tanner is quick to townread me, or if it’s not. Ugh -- I think I like Tanner

i thought the first line was funny because one of the things i consistently forget to do as scum is act paranoid around people i'd be paranoid about as town. anyway.

if you feel that your post shouldn't be enough to make me townread you, why do you come out liking me anyway?

would you say effort is AI for you, tweet?

[Morning Tweet]

Overall I ended up town leaning you but it might not be reflected perfectly in the notes, I kinda just commented on things that stood out to me as I went along. i can say I didnt find it outright scummy to townread me when I didnt think there was enough yet -- I give out townreads like candy myself personally

i can try to quantify why I like you more when i get access to a pc again proly

-

Effort for me is NAI, bordering on slightly scummy. I have made a giant reads note post at least one time as scum in both my scum games this year, whereas I do it maybe 1/2 - 2/3rds the time as town. sometimes as town i just say fuck it and follow my heart without doing heavy backtrack reading

in this case I felt like I was falling behind this game, even when I made posts I wasnt really retaining information from what i was reading and i spent a lot of energy on marathon games lol

[redtea]

the fuck
#419