Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[Raya36]

ok and im back to having enigma as scum. you outed me as PR and there were better ways of getting everyone to claim whether they were in a PT. you also didnt answer the question about whether you are ascetic. VOTE: enigma

Uhh, no I didn't. You brought up claiming hoods so it would make your role make sense.

This was before I claimed.

at this point it may be helpful for everyone to claim whether or not they are in a neighborhood. no need to claim neighbors, but it would be very helpful for me to understand my role. i can claim/explain everything or at least something based on what people say.

Since we're making assumptions.

Assumption 1: frog is in a hood
Assumption 2: this game is not 9-4
Assumption 3: I can end this game by day 3 potentially.

I'm a PT cop and have a result on someone that is not frog/walter/Italiano.

For reference.

This read as overdefensive

[Tayl0r Swift]

yep i wanna wagon RCE hard now.

HOP ABOARD! CHOO CHOO! (this wagon has a steam engine)

[Raya36]

Alright. RCE it is

VOTE: RCE

[Raya36]

Also for the record I read Taylor as town. I don't think her claim is disingenuous

[Tayl0r Swift]

Alright. RCE it is

VOTE: RCE

why did you have to wait for my permission to hop on the wagon after stating that you thought it was a good wagon?

[Raya36]

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

[Raya36]

Alright. RCE it is

VOTE: RCE

why did you have to wait for my permission to hop on the wagon after stating that you thought it was a good wagon?

I was going to anyway I was just still posting my reasoning and reading

[Nosferatu]

Can anyone interpret Nosferatu's readslist and explain to me why he's voting me over Raya? (Or voting me at all)

{town}
{nulltown}
{null}
{nullscum}
{scum}

so youre saying youre voting a null slot over a scum slot?
explain

{italiano, frogster}
{ts, walter, rce}
{looker, gamma, geraint}
{cfj}
{raya}

where im at right now

VOTE: looker

youre voting for someone in the middle of your readlist?

gotta sort them somehow i dont think any more pressure on cfj is doing anything

[Tayl0r Swift]

Can anyone interpret Nosferatu's readslist and explain to me why he's voting me over Raya? (Or voting me at all)

{town}
{nulltown}
{null}
{nullscum}
{scum}

so youre saying youre voting a null slot over a scum slot?
explain

{italiano, frogster}
{ts, walter, rce}
{looker, gamma, geraint}
{cfj}
{raya}

where im at right now

VOTE: looker

youre voting for someone in the middle of your readlist?

gotta sort them somehow i dont think any more pressure on cfj is doing anything

and raya? why arent you voting raya? explain your entire readlist please, with a brief summary of why everyone is where they are.

[RCEnigma]

Unsurprising that my wagon is going to be d1 off wagon voters +Taylor.

Oh RC lied? And? Worst case, nothing happens it does nothing to change how town responds to if they have a hood or not. Best case scum panic into claiming a hood. I did realize afterwards that if Walter is scum then the gambit was useless but it's worth playing out anyway.

I'm pretty sure I know what Taylor is going to claim so it isn't stepping on toes to throw it out there.

Rayas vote is oozing opportunism with 0 thought. Cfj...idk I could be wrong there and it's ray + gamma or Raya + walter. Cfj is kind of pushed into omgussing me here.

Cfj was on my radar from his first real post for the backwards logic regarding me and SJreaver and then handling sjreaver like he was talking to town instead of a slot he was unsure about and certainly not a slot he was suspecting as he had alluded to previously. This happened again with the nos vs frog situation and Taylor caught on but went wrong somewhere down the line idk where.

@CFJ: I ignored your questions in part from frustration but there's no point being a thorn for no reason.

Newbie games is a different indicator for my play so I'm going to exhibit what I consider to be proper play when handling players getting their feet wet.

Outside of newbie queue is different and yes I've fake claimed as both VT and as town PR. Which is a different case since I do have information that I'm manipulating. This isn't out of range for my townplay.

[callforjudgement]

No, the worst case is that someone counterclaims PT Cop before the neighbourhood massclaim is completed (most likely a townie; fakeclaiming scum would be risking a 50-50 chance of losing the game if the wrong member of the scumteam counterclaims). That's a pretty bad worst case, seeing as it would generally lead to you being eliminated today and the town power role who counterclaimed dying overnight.

Anyway, I managed to find an instance of you fakeclaiming as town (3-shot JOAT as 4-shot JOAT, adding on a Doctor shot), from 2018:
Subject: Large Normal 216 - Endgame

Inb4 scum has a roleblocker, but yes I can save you tonight. Afterwards I'm out of shots in my abilities so I'm counting on you to solve the game.

Subject: Large Normal 216 - Endgame

So all my abilities were 1 shot:

-Disloyal vig
-Cop check
-Commuter (couldn't be targeted) this was the night I tried to pull the night kill.

I very well could have lost this game for town last night. I don't have a protective ability. I just had to kind of bluff it to keep FL alive at least one more night regardless of who we flipped. If scum didn't buy it we lose FL anyway, I get lynched today and I think that's game if AP is scum. Town doesn't have a way to prevent 2v2 and I doubt there's only 1 scum left.

This was way harder to find than it needed to be. (I was assuming you'd be better at remembering which games you'd fakeclaimed in than I would at finding them, but apparently not?) It's also an instance where your fakeclaim was even riskier than the one here, so OK, this sort of thing is in your townrange.

(But seriously, where did the "Frogster is a neighbour" thing come from? That was kind-of out of left field and doesn't serve any obvious purpose in combination with the rest of the claim. Actually, it somewhat undermines the rest of the claim; an actual PT Cop who hadn't investigated Frogster would have no way of knowing he was a neighbour, unless the PT Cop was the other neighbour.)

[Tayl0r Swift]

i also assumed frogster was a neighbor because frogster said he thought the setup involved many neighbor pairs.

[Nosferatu]

and raya? why arent you voting raya? explain your entire readlist please, with a brief summary of why everyone is where they are.

i dont need to sort raya

[Frogsterking]

For what it's worth I'm null reading the fake-claim and I already lightly townread the RCE slot and I will continue to do so.

I'm also null reading that tayl0r and RCE assumed I was in a neighborhood because I can see how one would do that from my posts.

I'd actually believed that RCE and Nos might be in a neighborhood, along with pretty much anyone else. I wasn't trying to imply that I was in one myself. I also theorized the setup is a 9-4 and there is potentially an arsonist in the setup so comparatively I don't think my theory the setup was a series of neighborhoods was really all that out there.

[Nosferatu]

bare bones explanation for reads

italiano - cant see him as scum after yesterday
cfj - trying a little bit too hard but that could be meta
gamma - i usually can tell this slot by tone alone taking a long time to sort this one potential scum for sure
looker - dead null
geraint - kinda just oblivious, the type i totally cannot read
raya - continually scummy and active lurker literally just doing the bare minimum but acts like theyre doing shit
frogster - kind of outlandishly confident in a way that if he's scum ill just give him the win
rce - tonally very town, kinda gut
ts - pr
walter - tonally scum but the type i cannot read consistently

[geraintm]

While that is a lot of power that I definitely could have pushed a lynch through with.

I'm retracting my claim. @Taylor I'm not really gunning for you any more I think your reaction was pretty genuine, interesting you brought up the ascetic modifier because I do believe scum to be ascetic or Walter is just scum.

Mostly this was to prevent wiggle room for scum in the worst case and force a head to head in the best.

Doesn't change my position that burning off wagon probably ends the game.

Wow!
ok....well you suck. a "fake claim"...
I've been on the receiving end of these before, just ruined the entire game for me, them and the whole town. the town couldn't win after it happened. things got so bad between me and the other player I left the game.
I cannot understand this at all. I cannot see what the benefits for town are. I am sitting here and wondering what I would have hoped to achieve if I had made this claim....and I cannot work it out. dumb dumb dumb

VOTE: RCenigma
i was going to follow you the rest of the game...

had to look up what ascetic meant to.

you are just not apologising at all.

{italiano, frogster}
{ts, walter, rce}
{looker, gamma, geraint}
{cfg}
{raya}

where im at right now

VOTE: looker

i'm bemused by this, others question it too. you vote for someone from your null reads?

Can't speak for nos but glad we agree it's likely cfj + Raya

VOTE: CFJ

this...people have been asking for an explanation of their behaviour...and they just go along trying to start a counterwagon to the one on themselves.

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

does this look like a distancing play from inexperienced scum to anyone?

it was a weird as anything post...basically the weirdest thing anyone did day 1 that I saw and why I voted for them. I buy the inexperienced scum label, they seemed to flake from the game as soon as they thought they were going to get lynched.

Unsurprising that my wagon is going to be d1 off wagon voters +Taylor.

Oh RC lied? And? Worst case, nothing happens it does nothing to change how town responds to if they have a hood or not. Best case scum panic into claiming a hood. I did realize afterwards that if Walter is scum then the gambit was useless but it's worth playing out anyway.

well, I hope you are surprised I have joined your wagon..
your defence is terrible. you seriously think scum would have come forward and volunteered they were in a hood. the game would have been over immediately, we would have lynched one of them, catch a scum and then vote the other? your gambit had 0% chance of success.

Rayas vote is oozing opportunism with 0 thought. Cfj...idk I could be wrong there and it's ray + gamma or Raya + walter. Cfj is kind of pushed into omgussing me here.

wondering how you are going to lash out against me now...
I dunno about you...you are just going to rile me up in every future game we play together, I wont be able to believe you ever. I hope you are having fun...

[RCEnigma]

No, the worst case is that someone counterclaims PT Cop before the neighbourhood massclaim is completed (most likely a townie; fakeclaiming scum would be risking a 50-50 chance of losing the game if the wrong member of the scumteam counterclaims). That's a pretty bad worst case, seeing as it would generally lead to you being eliminated today and the town power role who counterclaimed dying overnight.

Anyway, I managed to find an instance of you fakeclaiming as town (3-shot JOAT as 4-shot JOAT, adding on a Doctor shot), from 2018:
Subject: Large Normal 216 - Endgame

Inb4 scum has a roleblocker, but yes I can save you tonight. Afterwards I'm out of shots in my abilities so I'm counting on you to solve the game.

Subject: Large Normal 216 - Endgame

So all my abilities were 1 shot:

-Disloyal vig
-Cop check
-Commuter (couldn't be targeted) this was the night I tried to pull the night kill.

I very well could have lost this game for town last night. I don't have a protective ability. I just had to kind of bluff it to keep FL alive at least one more night regardless of who we flipped. If scum didn't buy it we lose FL anyway, I get lynched today and I think that's game if AP is scum. Town doesn't have a way to prevent 2v2 and I doubt there's only 1 scum left.

This was way harder to find than it needed to be. (I was assuming you'd be better at remembering which games you'd fakeclaimed in than I would at finding them, but apparently not?) It's also an instance where your fakeclaim was even riskier than the one here, so OK, this sort of thing is in your townrange.

(But seriously, where did the "Frogster is a neighbour" thing come from? That was kind-of out of left field and doesn't serve any obvious purpose in combination with the rest of the claim. Actually, it somewhat undermines the rest of the claim; an actual PT Cop who hadn't investigated Frogster would have no way of knowing he was a neighbour, unless the PT Cop was the other neighbour.)

Uhhh having a PT cop out would not be detrimental to town. PT cop dying with a vague soft could potentially be. So a PT cop outs, they have a clear I would assume since a guilty should be outed regardless. I retract and now town has 3 confirmed clears in the friendly neighbor neighbor, PT cop, and 1 clear. FNN is not a threat if their reads are not spot on. Town hasn't coalesced around Italiano so like....

Also sure, you didn't ask what games I've fake claimed just if I've done it.
Jazz mafia (on my alt, Tet) I was loyal vig with a guilty on scum and claimed I shot someone else (who was also scum)
Musicals mafia I was disloyal doc that softed an investigative
Mainstream mafia II I was lightning rod/messenger that faked a daycop inno to stop a disruptive 1v1.

I'll cede I inno'd scum there but retracted to get them lynched.

This game though is so "But the wiki says..." That I'm just not having any kind of fun and don't really mind getting out.

Frogster implied he was in a neighborhood with his theory that the game was a series of hoods and also 9-4. I didn't really believe in the theory but making the suggestion implied he had knowledge other hoods existed (because he was also in one) but it was a miscommunication. This is somewhat what prompted the claim.

[RCEnigma]

wondering how you are going to lash out against me now...
I dunno about you...you are just going to rile me up in every future game we play together, I wont be able to believe you ever. I hope you are having fun...

No I'm not apologizing, also no I'm not having fun. Also also no offense but if your stance is "you fakeclaimed one game so I can't trust you in this other game" then I'm not keen on playing together again. That's a silly way to approach mafia.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Raya having second thoughts about cfj but Raya is scum in every solve.

[Looker]

I'm finding it difficult to trust the subjective nature of Tayl0r's posts. Especially since her overconfidence in RCE has fell through.

Could you clarify the second sentence here? I don't understand what you mean.

Immediate trust of an unconfirmed claim is suspicious to me. She immediately trusted RCE. There was also the part where she called me lurky before despite RCE requiring prods. I don't fully understand their relationship yet.

Also noting that I don't like Looker putting doubt on the claims (especially Taylor)

What do you gain from this overdefense of Tayl0r? What do you lose from me being appropriately suspicious of roles that aren't confirmed?

Oh RC lied? And? Worst case, nothing happens it does nothing to change how town responds to if they have a hood or not. Best case scum panic into claiming a hood. I did realize afterwards that if Walter is scum then the gambit was useless but it's worth playing out anyway.

Worst case is you're L-2 the following page (L-1 pending my vote)

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

does this look like a distancing play from inexperienced scum to anyone?

it was a weird as anything post...basically the weirdest thing anyone did day 1 that I saw and why I voted for them. I buy the inexperienced scum label, they seemed to flake from the game as soon as they thought they were going to get lynched.

How does that reflect on WaltertheDunce10 to you? Since he did the same thing.

---

• One way to interpret Shelly's Post 649 is "a distancing play from inexperienced scum", another is her trying to detract from the leading wagons of WaltertheDunce10 and callforjudgement.

VOTE: Looker

[RCEnigma]

Fwiw gerain I think you're town, I just think you see the game in a kind of 1 dimensional "this should happen, then this, then this" kind of way.

[RCEnigma]

Worst case is you're L-2 the following page (L-1 pending my vote)

I don't overly* care if it takes me being mis-elimmed for town to actually look at the offwagon voters and wagon progressions in general.

[geraintm]

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

does this look like a distancing play from inexperienced scum to anyone?

it was a weird as anything post...basically the weirdest thing anyone did day 1 that I saw and why I voted for them. I buy the inexperienced scum label, they seemed to flake from the game as soon as they thought they were going to get lynched.

How does that reflect on WaltertheDunce10 to you? Since he did the same thing.

---

I never had time to go through walter yesterday, I only did about half the players. I will get round this day to looking over people I haven't gone through their posts.
Sorry. if I had come across the post I would have called it out, it is what I spent most of day 1 doing.

Fwiw gerain I think you're town, I just think you see the game in a kind of 1 dimensional "this should happen, then this, then this" kind of way.

oh yes, I am def this type of player, I freely admit it. I like people to be truthful, to be sensible and not do dumb things. i'm not sure if there is anyone left in this game ive played with before, but I am not smart at this game and im a very surface level player (I think that is the same as one dimensional) who likes people doing things i understand.

[geraintm]

@Looker

I found this. I did call out walter for his exact same post as shelly. i

huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

this feels bollocks

Strange entrance by looker but that is one post.
I love reading.
655, is just really weird in that it sorta shows like cfj said a lack of reading/ disengagement.

nope, going to call you out too. nothing about looker's post was odd

[Raya36]

VOTE: Raya having second thoughts about cfj but Raya is scum in every solve.

Then you need to reconsider if I'm town. The only cases I've seen for me is scummy but not explaining why and doing bare mininum/lurking. And if you want an explanation for that I just started university online classes and I'm still getting used to that. This isn't really my priority right now but I'm still doing my best to be here