Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually no my TR on SJR was for reasons similar to how I perceived frog
I’m not gonna drop the read, meanwhile this seems like an interesting path to follow for potential info

[callforjudgement]

Pretty sure I had the MOST posts D1, so this is a bad take.

For what it's worth, my memory of your D1 play is that you had a high postcount but also hadn't done anything particularly noticeable or game-progressing; my thoughts were often along the lines of "Gamma Emerald feels like a lurker, how did the postcount get so high"? It may be because a large proportion of your posts (not all of them, but many of them) are obvious comments that could have been made by anyone and/or didn't related to the main themes that were going on at the time, so it's hard to remember that you specifically were the person who made them.

As such, I don't think "Gamma Emerald is a lurker" is a useful conclusion to draw, but I also don't think it's useful to conclude anything from the fact that someone does think you're a lurker. A playstyle that includes lots of very short posts, many of which are generic, is naturally going to lead players to forget that you've done much in the game.

[Gamma Emerald]

Having started another ISO read of SJR, this time from the end vs. the beginning, a difference in how frog and SJR were acting is apparent: frog was more confident about reads than SJR. This probably makes frog townier than SJR. In addition I think in retrospect the scumclaim Slayer’s gambit was a bit questionable, I think Town wouldn’t have as much of a problem with reading someone as Town through it. My guess would be he was trying to bait out a suspicious reaction from a townie.

[Gamma Emerald]

Pretty sure I had the MOST posts D1, so this is a bad take.

For what it's worth, my memory of your D1 play is that you had a high postcount but also hadn't done anything particularly noticeable or game-progressing; my thoughts were often along the lines of "Gamma Emerald feels like a lurker, how did the postcount get so high"? It may be because a large proportion of your posts (not all of them, but many of them) are obvious comments that could have been made by anyone and/or didn't related to the main themes that were going on at the time, so it's hard to remember that you specifically were the person who made them.

As such, I don't think "Gamma Emerald is a lurker" is a useful conclusion to draw, but I also don't think it's useful to conclude anything from the fact that someone does think you're a lurker. A playstyle that includes lots of very short posts, many of which are generic, is naturally going to lead players to forget that you've done much in the game.

This is a fair response
Though I don’t feel like I have been commenting on obvious/unrelated things. I think I’ve just not really tried to make an impact yet. That’s due somewhat to not caring too much about the game as much as probably some other people do, and probably actually because of that. I think today’s direction actually feels like one I can actually feel good trying my best in.

[Frogsterking]

After rereading Frogster (and thinking about the nightkill somewhat), I think that Frogsterking is town. Not_Mafia's play was, whilst not actually scummy, very anti-town (and Frogster picked up on that). So I'm pretty sure that Frogster would consider Not_Mafia's presence an asset to scum, and there's pretty much no way that a hypothetically scum Frogster would make that kill. (Sometimes scum make non-obvious kills for WIFOM purposes, but I don't think that a hypothetically scum Frogster would expect town to reason "Not_Mafia dead → Frogster town", so this would only be useful for WIFOM if he had a buddy point it out, and this hasn't happened.)

I was townreading Frogster anyway, though, even before the nightkill (his reads are bad but that doesn't make him scum).

---

Also, @

Not_Mafia

, just in case you're reading this from the dead thread:

Can flashwagon Walter please, italiano is a vig kill not a lynch

Even D1, some players were picking up on the possibility that Italiano was a confirmable power role (I saw Mason as a possibility, but thought that scum was a stronger possibility, and of course if Italiano was on the point of elimination as a Mason he would be able to claim out of it so that was no reason not to push him). He was, in fact, a confirmable power role. Those players are the worst possible slots to vig because if you wagon them and they claim, now you can let them confirm themself overnight and you get a second town-controlled kill; but if you nightkill them as town, then they don't get a chance to demonstrate why you're wrong about them. (This is especially important because players who are confirmable as town tend to put less effort into showing themselves as town through their dayplay!)

I'll be hopeful that you have a good explanation for this postgame. If it was just pure trolling, then you were playing quite heavily against your win condition.

Given that it had the opposite of the desired effect, I probably should explain this post.

The Not_Mafia kill N1 was outright bizarre, and combined with the surprising shelly flip D1, left me very confused as to what was going on; it felt like scum were intentionally trolling rather than trying to play normally (why doesn't scum shelly turn up and crossvote Walter? why kill the least useful townie in the game?) One explanation that neatly explains those two events is for Walter to be scum, but it doesn't seem to fit well with the rest of the gamestate.

As such, I was wondering whether the N_M kill was a vig kill rather than a scum kill (with the scum kill having been somehow prevented). I generally prefer to choose players who are being widely scumread as vig targets, but many players prefer to "policy vig" useless or lurky townies, and N_M really stands out as a vig kill when chosen on that basis.

I also suspected that the most likely Vigilante was Frogsterking (who was one of the players most strongly concerned with the N_M slot, and #809 looks like a breadcrumb to help town deduce Frogster's actions post-flip), leading to a townread (Vigilantes can't be scum), and a lot of alarm, because

I'm the Vigilante's top scumread

, which bodes pretty badly for N2. So I posted #1002 in an attempt to send a signal that would be picked up by a hypothetical vig Frogster, saying in effect "I think you made the kill last night, I was townreading you anyway but am townreading you more strongly because of it", hoping that he would realise that I was town as a consequence (if I'm vigreading someone and I'm scum, I could just shoot them and nobody would figure out it was me who had vigread them; although I only formed the vigread on D2, if I were hypothetically scum I would have the information to do this N1). I also included, in the same post, a discussion of vigilantes in order to clarify what the signal was about. Unfortunately, this sort of signal has to be quite subtle to stop scum pickign up on it.

Instead, Frogsterking started tunnelling me, which is not the reaction I expected and is pretty harmful to the gamestate. (It also rather increases the chance that I'm wrong about him being a Vigilante.)

Huh?

[Frogsterking]

Gamma starting to town tell now in recent posts leaves me with a solid scum read on the CFJ slot.

[Frogsterking]

Gamma starting to town tell now in recent posts leaves me with a solid scum read on the CFJ slot.

Based on process of elimination.

[ItalianoVD]

Gamma starting to town tell now in recent posts leaves me with a solid scum read on the CFJ slot.

But you unvoted Gamma and for cfj before Gamma even said anything.

[ItalianoVD]

@Frogsterking: look at what Gamma has said about cfj in 1031 from the perspective that cfj is scum. Feels good right?

Now look at it from the perspective that cfj is town. Do you get the same good feeling?

[ItalianoVD]

@Taylor: 952 is a joke right?

@Raya: Did you ever look into Walter’s meta? (224). And did you ever go back? (299)

And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?

I skimmed some Walter meta and I didnt go back through cfj

1) What did you find from skimming through Walter? 2) So then you just said you were gonna go back through cfj because it sounded good, but wasn’t actually planning on doing it?

[Frogsterking]

Gamma starting to town tell now in recent posts leaves me with a solid scum read on the CFJ slot.

But you unvoted Gamma and for cfj before Gamma even said anything.

Yes I preferred CFJ over Gamma even before Gamma started town telling. CFJ's townread on me today looked very inauthentic.

[ItalianoVD]

This is not a defense, but all those suspicious of Looker, were you suspicious of SJReaver?

i certainly was

This is not a defense, but all those suspicious of Looker, were you suspicious of SJReaver?

I TRed SJR, I might re-evaluate that read now, seeing as I already was wrong on a townread that I feel was similar in logic

Anyone else notice Looker is self-voting for no reason?

VOTE: Looker
I checked the context of that vote and that’s a whole crateful of yikes.

I’m not a fan of how cfj is interacting with frogster, feels like discrediting. It seems like cfj wants to smear frog’s reputation just on principle

Great misdirection.

yeah thats a really bad sequence from gamma who has been pretty lurky all game.

I wouldn’t say lurky, I’d say forgettable.

[Frogsterking]

@Frogsterking: look at what Gamma has said about cfj in 1031 from the perspective that cfj is scum. Feels good right?

Now look at it from the perspective that cfj is town. Do you get the same good feeling?

On its own in 1031 Gamma looks poor from the perspective that CFJ is town, Gamma coming back though in 1034 is solid because he's correct I was already pushing CFJ for reasons unrelated to anything CFJ is talking about. Gamma's subsequent tie-in with the controversy over the SJR/Looker slot I'm also reading as townie attempts to solve.

I'm reading the Gamma slot as null now instead of null leaning scum.

[geraintm]

it is so very normal to vote somebody who isn't your top scum read i've rarely ever had to justify doing so

justify it some more. just repeating something back to me when I have asked for clarification (and I am not the only one) isn't good enough.

And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?

me, I am oblivious to anything like that. I am all about the surface.

If you scumread shelly for calling my first post scummy, does her flipping scum reflect negatively on WaltertheDunce10 to you (seeing as he did the exact same thing)?

it would have, but the game has moved on since then with my view about walter. it would have been the same yesterday, but what has come out today I don't automatically make walter scum just because yesterday they were acting similar to scum. I think we got very lucky with shelly yesterday

at this point im kinda more confident in raya being scum than enigma. raya is rolefishing and trying to pocket me. VOTE: raya. its interesting that theyre voting each other though. that could be an "uh oh we're caught better do something to make it look like we cant both be scum" play.

do you still think RCenigma is scum though??? or you thinking they are town now?

@frogster - I don't have nosferatu as town. or why Callforjudgement is giving Nosferatu all the cred for shelly getting lynched

what are the odds that cfj vs frog is TvT here? pretty low i reckon. in any case scum is suddenly doing a good job of muddying the waters, and some townies are helping them.

agree, I thought today was going to be a nice simple lynch of enigma but then someone who started the wagon dropped off

what are the odds that cfj vs frog is TvT here? pretty low i reckon. in any case scum is suddenly doing a good job of muddying the waters, and some townies are helping them.

Actually I believe that there’s a pretty good chance it is TvT.

Can you elaborate on your second sentence?

the gamestate was in a really good spot 24 hours ago. we had good leads and the game felt under control. now it feels like chaos, which is partially scum driven im sure (either a wagon was going somewhere they didnt like or they were just being slowly cornered. but its also partially town driven. there are townies stirring shit up which is bad. now suddenly the game feels much less certain and sure - im not confident in where to apply pressure anymore. that suggests that wherever pressure was going 24 hours ago was the right direction

i hope taylor wont mind if i roll my eyes again, as i've just come back from overnight to find the person who began the wagon on the best wagon we had has pulled off and looks like they are looking for another wagon to join once they felt RCenigma wasn't going to easily get over the line. you will excuse me for calling this...mildly weird? like, i think you are town but if you are, i havent seen someone get this much self doubt so quickly in a long time...

Callfor judgements 1042 post

I am glad i wasnt the target for his hints, it would have whooshed past me. please, in all future games, dont drop hints like this with me as i wont get it.
i think you are overthinking the night kill. why look for a really, really confusing and unlikely explanation (mafia's kill got blocked and there is a vig in the game) instead of "i don't know why scum targetted not mafia". you keep saying that not mafia was a weird kill, but that is only to you with your limited game knowledge. i just don't try and guess mafia's logic, i never get it right
but you spending so much time on this i find weird. you have almost gone "thing A is weird. lets look at thing B instead" because you want to make sure everyone doesn't look at thing A. this post is just odd to me. the misdirection is so obvious it becomes unobvious??
i realise my post isn't much use, it isn't providing any evidence, but i found your post weird. it was a really long post to say "i think frog is town and no one should look at not mafia".
frog later just goes huh which would have been my reaction too

there is a little burst of posts about gamma now. Italiano said he didn't like gamma saying CFJ interacting with frogster (back when CFJ's posts were all about frogster before he explained why). taylor agrees. gamma makes a ton of posts fighting back. i dunno, feels like there is one scum in among these, it can't be that every discussion in this game is town vs town.

i need to go through a few players posts to get some better reads on people, rather than just reacting to what is going on. i still hate RCenigma - who has gone noticeably quiet after a few days of being very very active... - and do not want to move my vote right now

[Raya36]

@

Frogsterking

: Have you forgotten your screenfuls-long posts on Nosferatu? #255 and #288.

By comparison, you did basically nothing to push shelly. You had a mild scumread in #488 and didn't make any cases for a stronger read all Day (and admitted as much in #784). The only actual pushing you did was #854, very late in the Day (it's after the deadline freeze had occurred).

You're currently posting as though you had a super-strong read on shelly throughout, but your day 1 posts don't match that very well.

Not a fan of this deflection. He was talking about your progress on Shelly and related slots. His position on Shelly is irrelevant

[Raya36]

I’m not a fan of how cfj is interacting with frogster, feels like discrediting. It seems like cfj wants to smear frog’s reputation just on principle

I agree with this

[Raya36]

@Taylor: 952 is a joke right?

@Raya: Did you ever look into Walter’s meta? (224). And did you ever go back? (299)

And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?

I skimmed some Walter meta and I didnt go back through cfj

1) What did you find from skimming through Walter? 2) So then you just said you were gonna go back through cfj because it sounded good, but wasn’t actually planning on doing it?

1) I didn't find anything of the same nature in either his town or scum games. However I can note that he seems to post more and be much more transparent as town. Although that can only he taken on surface value since that's based on only 1 scum game.

2) life got busy and I didn't have the time/energy/motivation to go through all those long posts

[geraintm]

As promised, am trying to get through more people now.
1st italiano. i'll skip over more of their day 1 posts unless I see something interesting

Would like to hear more from Banana other than

After reading through up to page 4 again, what it looks like to me is we were out of RVS once callforjudgment made his serious vote. @ callforjudgment I know you said that we left RVS before you made your post/vote, but I didn’t find that. Can you point to where you saw it move out of RVS?

@SJReaver: Listen I’m not gonna waste time trying to prove to you that I’m town, but can you honestly say that all of your posts have added to the gamestate and have helped in finding scum?

If you’re town your tunneling doesn’t help, but if you’re scum, you picked the wrong person to target.

VOTE: Banana

Gotta say something better than bruh my dude. Even though we’ve all been “fluffing” it overall your posts have felt very apathetic.

like this

I've got to like post 440 and there isn't much to go on. a few votes being moved, and some mor einteraction with banana

Charmander just shot up to FoS #2 for his terrible defense of Nosferatu. Arguably it makes him even scummier than Nosferatu.

For reasons I can’t reveal based on the rules, I’m taking Frogsterking out of my scumreads.

this caught my interest at the time and made me want to watch them from then on.

post 674 - seems an earnest attempt to wrap up the day. it didn't actually add anything, but felt like something

yes but why this wagon? i have alarm bells ringing in my head.

1. Italiano is one of the more familiar names on the playerlist, I've played with them in Newbie 2019 / 2025.
2. Looking through Italiano's ISO, I don't really like the Frogsterking FoS by them. Frogster's posting (for now) reads fairly townie to me.

yes but why this wagon? i have alarm bells ringing in my head.

1. Italiano is one of the more familiar names on the playerlist, I've played with them in Newbie 2019 / 2025.
2. Looking through Italiano's ISO, I don't really like the Frogsterking FoS by them. Frogster's posting (for now) reads fairly townie to me.

Did you really iso? Caused you would’ve seen 490. Maybe you missed it.

has this interaction with shelly

this is up to end of day 1
now for day 2

ok italiano. its time for you and walter to explain why you were so confident in each other yesterday. i dont like your entrance to today, and while i covered for you yesterday i think you owe an explanation to everyone for what you crumbed yesterday.

And I appreciate that a lot. It's going to come up eventually, but I am the Friendly town neighbor and I share a neighborhood with Walter.

ding ding ding, now their posts make a ton more sense.
I see no reason not to believe this. they appeared to me on day 1 to be pretty townie. they didn't ping me much for scum behaviour and their interactions with banana/shelly during day 1, once they flipped scum, came across as town.
once this claim came out, I am sure they are town. the alternative to them being town is that they, shelly and walter have decided on one of the most brazen fakes ever.

I am happy to trust their intentions the rest of the game, and in a tiebreak will follow them.
did you ever say what your reasoning on frogster was?

[geraintm]

Next is looker.
it was their post and shelly's reaction to their entrance that ended up with shelly dead.

• I'm surprised there's not more consolidation of wagons before deadline.

---

VOTE: geraintm

If geraintm is scum, what purpose do you feel his vote on Not_Mafia serves? Do you feel it's a vanity? Is it distancing? Do you feel it's so that he doesn't have to jump on the bigger Italiano wagon?

notes lack of consolidation of wagons.

VOTE: shelly

Okay let's end of day gogo between

geraintm

or

Banana/shelly

my first pick is shelly and I'll switch back to geraintm if necessary.

VOTE: geraintm

---

Spoiler:

ItalianoVD(2)

~ RCEnigma(62), shellyc

WaltertheDunce10(5)

~ Raya36(55), Not_Mafia, callforjudgement, Nosferatu, geraintm

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald, Looker

shellyc(4)

~ Tayl0r Swift, Frogsterking, ItalianoVD, WaltertheDunce10

Not Voting (0):
With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

their response is to split the shelly wagon and my wagon. I don't see any reason to vote for me (or shelly) being given, they just want to be on a wagon as the day end approaches

post 877 - some theory about the wagon at the end of day 1

• I'm not seeing the benefit of these pseudo-claims. RCE lied, Tayl0r's hinting, and Italiano still hasn't said who he targeted. None of this is trustworthy.

I can see someone being untrustworthy of some of the claims, as people are being unhelpful, but to say none of the claims are trustworthy??

post 994 - says to RCenigma they are effectively at lynch minus 1....and then votes for himself. I have to admit, at the time I thought the self vote thing was a quote problem, and didn't go back and check it. I thought it too bizarre to be anything else

post 1037 - still, like me on the RCenigma wagon. so I like that.

overall, I don't know. their interaction with shelly is just so odd with hindsight. If i read Looker's posts through the lens of "are they town or are they scum"...then of course they could be read as town. but if they are in a team with Shelly, it doesn't look unbelievable. but then there are other implcations..
needs more investment from them, that is true.

[ItalianoVD]

the gamestate was in a really good spot 24 hours ago. we had good leads and the game felt under control. now it feels like chaos, which is partially scum driven im sure (either a wagon was going somewhere they didnt like or they were just being slowly cornered. but its also partially town driven. there are townies stirring shit up which is bad. now suddenly the game feels much less certain and sure - im not confident in where to apply pressure anymore. that suggests that wherever pressure was going 24 hours ago was the right direction

I’m sorry, but I’m not liking this post. 24 hours ago (from when you made this post) this was the vote count:

Votecount 2.2

WaltertheDunce10(1)

~ Looker(3)

Looker(1)

~ Tayl0r Swift(18)

callforjudgement(1)

~ Frogsterking(14)


Not Voting (8): ItalianoVD(15), callforjudgement(8), Gamma Emerald(4), geraintm(3), Raya36(10), Nosferatu(3), RCEnigma(5), WaltertheDunce10(4)

With 11 alive it takes 6 to eliminate.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-22 17:44:55)

Then you, cfj, Raya, and geraintm jumped onto RCEnigma. Then you jumped off onto Raya and RC voted for Raya. You gotta be more specific about what you’re saying. And what gamestate are you referring to? What townies are stirring it up? You’re not confident in applying pressure? Really? Why? Just do it. BTW what

are

your reads up to this point?

[Nosferatu]

justify it some more. just repeating something back to me when I have asked for clarification (and I am not the only one) isn't good enough.

i won't :)

there's literally no further need to elaborate, i need to sort looker > looker has a new wagon > i vote the wagon

it really is just that simple

[geraintm]

Insert shawshankobtuse.jpg

[WaltertheDunce10]

it is so very normal to vote somebody who isn't your top scum read i've rarely ever had to justify doing so

justify it some more. just repeating something back to me when I have asked for clarification (and I am not the only one) isn't good enough.

And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?

me, I am oblivious to anything like that. I am all about the surface.

If you scumread shelly for calling my first post scummy, does her flipping scum reflect negatively on WaltertheDunce10 to you (seeing as he did the exact same thing)?

it would have, but the game has moved on since then with my view about walter. it would have been the same yesterday, but what has come out today I don't automatically make walter scum just because yesterday they were acting similar to scum. I think we got very lucky with shelly yesterday

at this point im kinda more confident in raya being scum than enigma. raya is rolefishing and trying to pocket me. VOTE: raya. its interesting that theyre voting each other though. that could be an "uh oh we're caught better do something to make it look like we cant both be scum" play.

do you still think RCenigma is scum though??? or you thinking they are town now?

@frogster - I don't have nosferatu as town. or why Callforjudgement is giving Nosferatu all the cred for shelly getting lynched

what are the odds that cfj vs frog is TvT here? pretty low i reckon. in any case scum is suddenly doing a good job of muddying the waters, and some townies are helping them.

agree, I thought today was going to be a nice simple lynch of enigma but then someone who started the wagon dropped off

what are the odds that cfj vs frog is TvT here? pretty low i reckon. in any case scum is suddenly doing a good job of muddying the waters, and some townies are helping them.

Actually I believe that there’s a pretty good chance it is TvT.

Can you elaborate on your second sentence?

the gamestate was in a really good spot 24 hours ago. we had good leads and the game felt under control. now it feels like chaos, which is partially scum driven im sure (either a wagon was going somewhere they didnt like or they were just being slowly cornered. but its also partially town driven. there are townies stirring shit up which is bad. now suddenly the game feels much less certain and sure - im not confident in where to apply pressure anymore. that suggests that wherever pressure was going 24 hours ago was the right direction

i hope taylor wont mind if i roll my eyes again, as i've just come back from overnight to find the person who began the wagon on the best wagon we had has pulled off and looks like they are looking for another wagon to join once they felt RCenigma wasn't going to easily get over the line. you will excuse me for calling this...mildly weird? like, i think you are town but if you are, i havent seen someone get this much self doubt so quickly in a long time...

Callfor judgements 1042 post

I am glad i wasnt the target for his hints, it would have whooshed past me. please, in all future games, dont drop hints like this with me as i wont get it.
i think you are overthinking the night kill. why look for a really, really confusing and unlikely explanation (mafia's kill got blocked and there is a vig in the game) instead of "i don't know why scum targetted not mafia". you keep saying that not mafia was a weird kill, but that is only to you with your limited game knowledge. i just don't try and guess mafia's logic, i never get it right
but you spending so much time on this i find weird. you have almost gone "thing A is weird. lets look at thing B instead" because you want to make sure everyone doesn't look at thing A. this post is just odd to me. the misdirection is so obvious it becomes unobvious??
i realise my post isn't much use, it isn't providing any evidence, but i found your post weird. it was a really long post to say "i think frog is town and no one should look at not mafia".
frog later just goes huh which would have been my reaction too

there is a little burst of posts about gamma now. Italiano said he didn't like gamma saying CFJ interacting with frogster (back when CFJ's posts were all about frogster before he explained why). taylor agrees. gamma makes a ton of posts fighting back. i dunno, feels like there is one scum in among these, it can't be that every discussion in this game is town vs town.

i need to go through a few players posts to get some better reads on people, rather than just reacting to what is going on. i still hate RCenigma - who has gone noticeably quiet after a few days of being very very active... - and do not want to move my vote right now

I don't get this vig theory at all. I agree that it is weird. Maybe CFJ thinks that people think that he killed NM? That still does not explain this theory though.

[WaltertheDunce10]

@Taylor: 952 is a joke right?

@Raya: Did you ever look into Walter’s meta? (224). And did you ever go back? (299)

And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?

I skimmed some Walter meta and I didnt go back through cfj

1) What did you find from skimming through Walter? 2) So then you just said you were gonna go back through cfj because it sounded good, but wasn’t actually planning on doing it?

1) I didn't find anything of the same nature in either his town or scum games. However I can note that he seems to post more and be much more transparent as town. Although that can only he taken on surface value since that's based on only 1 scum game.

2) life got busy and I didn't have the time/energy/motivation to go through all those long posts

Yes,that is true.

[WaltertheDunce10]

Looking and him and frog seems to be a tvt maybe. Not convinced though. But Gamma seems slightly townier to me. still null.
don't like the fake claim. It baited out that there is one neighborhood and gave scum info.
However, looker self-vote is just weird as fuck.