Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Hectic]

Is catboi's other content since your scumcase of him making you lean one way or the other on him?

it feels pretty opportunistic to me that he seems to be going from 1 LHF to another at this point.

What about his Chara push? It's pretty high hanging fruit imo

[Hectic]

[Prism]

actually, the way Taylor initially says the catboi read is basically nothing, and then when pressed

does

give justification, doesn't look very good. i'm not sure how i missed that.

Spoiler: Taylor's progression on catboi

hot take: pooky is town

catboi is my top scumread fwiw. i also dislike hectic for pushing a spare today, after everything else we've talked about re sparing/fighting.

hmm i reread the iso and im not sure what i was seeing. its possible that the avatar just set me off? on rereading youre more null-town

i dunno! at the time i didnt like that catboi wont lay off pooky. pooky feels like lhf and kinda obvtown. but catboi overall i think is just overeager town.

I think the "i'm not sure what i'm seeing" into knowing what they saw pretty soon afterwards is sketchy. I can think of reasons for this, but it'd be better for me to not fill in the gaps for them. I think them being nulltown to overeager on catboi does merit more explanation. Their Pooky reasoning isn't really wrong, either.

Re: townreading someone (catboi) mostly for voting Taylor ??? this is very scumteam dependent. Scum lynch today would be disastrous and catboi has made his way around all three of the weakest slots (Pooky has since taken a stronger role) and dodged seriously pushing anything else like the plague, even when he seems to have reason to. The push on you is the first one that really deviated, and it wasn't very longlived. Catboi struggling to get reads here in general is pretty plausible, as I mentioned I'm struggling to, but I haven't really seen anything that makes me go "Yeah, this is a townpush"

I didn't really take issue with 266, the Elements reaction is natural imo and I sympathize. I also think they've given plenty of conclusions between me/catboi, and have argued for them. I do think the interaction w/ Puppy was weird but Puppy gave a lot of content in between the two posts. It might be worth it for redtea to be more specific about what they were looking for.

Someone pointed out that Elements cited feeling lost right after the readslist. I also remember tilting my head at this when I ISO'd them, but gave it the benefit of the doubt given that I've been in similar situations. But maybe I shouldn't-I haven't liked bee's posting so far. I'm not familiar with them at all, though.

The request for isolated posts really pinged me. It's a lot easier as scum to react to things with no context-you're really just trying to give first reactions and towntell with it. I don't think I've done it on MS, at least not recently, but these kinds of requests are also a pretty frequent scum tactic of mine due to the Ben Franklin effect. I also don't like the reads in #830: I was already committed by previous posts to having found certain things wrong with Morning. It's the transition and why that's important. The Hectic read is ???, he can cite an abstract tell that exists even if he rolls scum. It's perhaps slightly less likely as scum, but not at all inconceivable even without the context around it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

What about his Chara push? It's pretty high hanging fruit imo

I don't consider votes that last for less than a day to be serious pushes.

[Prism]

I'm also still confused about why Hectic is continuing to push that Elements had a serious spare vote on him. Really bizarre and not my interpretation of Elements' ISO at all but Hectic doubled down on it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

spares are more serious than hurts imo because 4 town-spare votes on a chara is auto-lose

[Hectic]

I'm also still confused about why Hectic is continuing to push that Elements had a serious spare vote on him. Really bizarre and not my interpretation of Elements' ISO at all but Hectic doubled down on it.

I didn't say it was a serious SPARE, the scummy thing was that it was kinda unnatural and might've been an attempt to pocket me.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hectic - probably town. stop being a goof though, and while i agree that deciding lavender is town rather than scum is passing on an opportunity for opportunism, it feels like a weak read
elements - beeboy hasnt really done anything to make me townread that slot (yet)
chara - am i the only one thinking chara might be scum here? chara let themself be talked into scumreading me pretty easily, and seems to float around the popular opinions a lot but never do much scumhunting
prism - prolly just town
pooky - definitely town
catboi - i still have misgivings
morning - those ears could never be scum
lavender - needs more content, in PoE
redtea - i dont remember any posts from this slot. i guess at some point i should read the iso but its not a good sign if they arent doing anything worth remembering. could just be the awolness that made me forget
tanner - prolly just town
puppy - hasnt really done much townie recently, but was a townread earlier

so that makes my PoE chara, lavender, redtea, puppy. out of those i want to HURT: chara

[Prism]

I think part of the struggle for me is how it's really that unnatural. It seems like you had issue with his tone. But without knowing Elements, and just knowing that he misread you 4 games in a row, joking around about you always being town and sparing you in RVS seems extremely natural.

I can definitely see myself voting this slot, though.

[Prism]

Hey Taylor, really glad to see you collect your reads like that. I get some of your misgivings on catboi, but can you expound on why you shifted to thinking overeager town awhile back?

It seems like the scumread was more gutreaction to Pooky, but I'm curious as to what you were thinking as you read.

[Hectic]

I think part of the struggle for me is how it's really that unnatural. It seems like you had issue with his tone. But without knowing Elements, and just knowing that he misread you 4 games in a row, joking around about you always being town and sparing you in RVS seems extremely natural.

I can definitely see myself voting this slot, though.

Well, yeah, but I do know his tone. And like I said, it's usually kinda abrasive and very unpockety. His type of approach towards Pooky and I this game I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but I think there's more scum-motivation than town-motivation for the shift.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Hey Taylor, really glad to see you collect your reads like that. I get some of your misgivings on catboi, but can you expound on why you shifted to thinking overeager town awhile back?

It seems like the scumread was more gutreaction to Pooky, but I'm curious as to what you were thinking as you read.

i dont know if i could really articulate my read on catboi. actually ive kinda proven that i cant. theres just something there i dont like.

i guess catboi and beeboy are also in PoE.

[Prism]

I skimmed the game you [Hectic] played as Marksman, have yet to skim the game Chara linked. My first impressions were that it was striking how much more at ease you were and your reads seemed to have more depth to them. I'm not really sure if this is due to being in more favorable circumstances as scum, the fact that you were on an alt, or that you're legitimately struggling this game as town. I'm not really sure how much pressure you were under or how nervous you were about the playerlist. For me, my issues with you are that your early reads on me/Chara seemed really implausible, and some of the transitions you've made since have seemed very strategic (post on Pooky, "this is the plan" on MT without selling it). The post on Lavender was +town, but could have also been a calculated freebie in light of the pressure you've been under this game. You were already in Crossfire, so it's more of a case of "Would you divulge this info?" more than "Would you seek this info out?"

I dunno. I'm wary of confbiasing you, but the entire way you approached the game up until Lavender was really slimy to me. The Elements read is slice of it, but up until your Lavender post I really don't see anything to like about you this game. What gives? What I really want here is to understand what townHectic is thinking about the game as a whole and how these connect together, because I'm really having trouble piecing the individual slices together.

The timing around the Elements read is also really strange to me. You seemed to have already been thinking about it based off timestamps, but chose to vote Pooky instead. You later swapped after the Puppy angle but idk. I think S/S is really plausible here but I'm not confident enough in you, and have read so little from the Elements/beeboy slot, that I'm really not that comfortable speculating. Order of the townreads in your list was also bizarre to me beyond MT at the top.

[Prism]

Like I buy that Elements is probably more abrasive than usual, but is this finding a more solid position after the fact, or just a better articulation? Really unclear to me

[Prism]

less abrasive, w/e, you get my point

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think part of the struggle for me is how it's really that unnatural. It seems like you had issue with his tone. But without knowing Elements, and just knowing that he misread you 4 games in a row, joking around about you always being town and sparing you in RVS seems extremely natural.

I can definitely see myself voting this slot, though.

Well, yeah, but I do know his tone. And like I said, it's usually kinda abrasive and very unpockety. His type of approach towards Pooky and I this game I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but I think there's more scum-motivation than town-motivation for the shift.

Let's look at Elements progression on my slot this game:

pooky are you always so lovely?

HEAL: pooky

HEAL: pooky
can't say no to that

9/12 * 7/10 * 5/7 * 3/5 = 0.225
4 spares at random

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

this is a game
it's meant to be fun
sparing is the more fun path
we should spare

Hectic - Town
Elements - Town
Chara - null
Prism - town
PookyTheMagicalBear - chara
catboi - town
Morning Tweet - town
Tayl0r Swift - eh
Lavender - who?
redtea - eh
Tanner - scum
CantLynchAPuppy - scum

Like do you see anywhere in the ISO where there's a natural shift from elements from let's do 4 spare and Pooky should be one of them to "Pooky is the Chara"

Like it's just comical his progression on me and it feels like a Chara that just gave up lol.

[Prism]

Also, for Hectic/Chara/anyone else that feels like it, skim the first five to ten posts of mine of this game for me.

[Hectic]

@Prism: I was just about to call it night so will have to go in depth tomorrow, but for now:
I am just town struggling this game. Something about the first 20 pages just wasn't engaging with me at all, and I was very lazy and found myself skimming a lot of stuff. The reason my reads were not fleshed out or weak, is because they're relative to my engagement/grasp of the game at the time, which was poor. I found some more motivation to look at stuff more closely today, and engage myself more.

The scum-motivation for Ele pocketing me is because in 2 of the last 5 games together, he was scum, and in both games, town!me played a big role in pushing him and getting him launched. His approach in both of those games was to scumread me like he normally does in his town games. This could easily be scum!Ele realising that isn't working for him, and trying to come out buddying me from the offset.
Town!Ele would probably be more neutral on me or give me less attention.

[Prism]

#865 is a good point. I really wish Elements had elaborated more on his list.

[Tayl0r Swift]

im down for a beeboy wagon

[Prism]

I mean I guess I can see where the Pooky-chara read from Elements comes from given that was when Pooky was doing nothing but pushing spares?

Still wish for so much more from the dude and the read list into "i'm lost" the next day is still sketchy

[redtea]

Sorry for the afk. My computer is out of service atm so my posts are gonna be kinda shitty.

Pooky has made a whole scumcase of catboi what
I gotta catch up

[Prism]

Sorry for the afk. My computer is out of service atm so my posts are gonna be kinda shitty.

Pooky has made a whole scumcase of catboi what
I gotta catch up

?

this dude just wrote a whole-ass wall of china

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I mean I guess I can see where the Pooky-chara read from Elements comes from given that was when Pooky was doing nothing but pushing spares?

Still wish for so much more from the dude and the read list into "i'm lost" the next day is still sketchy

Ok but that's literally the same information he had when he said I should be spared lol.

It's just pretty wild his 180 from "Pooky should be spared" to "Pooky is the Chara" with like no transition or explanation. makes it hard to believe it comes from genuine town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like post 535 he says I'm chara but his heal is on me and he doesn't hurt me - he only unheals me in like post 639. it feels like a reactionary read-list to my read-list where I call him Chara.