Open 794 Pick Your Power X/Y (finished)

[Green Crayons]

By nature of the ability to choose, rather than being given out at random.

[iamausername]

UNVOTE:

weird.

really want to hear DrD's explanation for how rolecop makes sense at all as a town pick, because it seems like a tremendously useless role for town to me.

but like, if i was a mafia rolecop in his position, i definitely wouldn't claim rolecop and try to spin it as a town pick, i'd just claim universal backup. so regardless of his alignment, he must think there are reasons for town to pick rolecop.

think i agree with Greyons that Umlaut looks town from the claim though. i don't think Scumlaut gets to the thought process in 1274 when he doesn't have any reason to wonder about the motivation behind DrD's pick.

also i have townreads on like everyone else who isn't Gypyx. so i guess i should

VOTE: Gypyx

[Umlaut]

Looking forward to the explanation of why Rolecop is a high-EV town role in a setup where any alignment can be any role.

So you don’t think some roles are AI?

Obviously I do since the whole basis of my reasoning here is that a role such as Rolecop can be AI. But there are much more direct ways available to learn alignments if you have your pick of roles.

[Something_Smart]

I'm the rolecop.

I would have bet money you were UB after that hop onto A50 lol

[Something_Smart]

It will be very valuable if we can confirm that DDL took an action last night.

DDL, please crumb your result to the best of your ability. (Crumb, not soft-- you don't need anyone else to figure it out, you just need to be able to point to it later and explain it. Ask Datisi if you need help with this because he is a god at it.)

[Gypyx]

Initial reaction is that this makes Umlaut solid town.

Why, like, this is totally NAI, how does it make Umlaut townier?

[Green Crayons]

First I liked his reaction to what I thought was the best case about him around his voting/not voting of Marquis/A50.

Second, his theory that scum picked his attempted PR seems more likely to come from town paranoia.

[Green Crayons]

Looking forward to the explanation of why Rolecop is a high-EV town role in a setup where any alignment can be any role.

So you don’t think some roles are AI?

Obviously I do since the whole basis of my reasoning here is that a role such as Rolecop can be AI. But there are much more direct ways available to learn alignments if you have your pick of roles.

Oh you’re saying just rolecop is NAI?

[Green Crayons]

Second, his theory that scum picked his attempted PR seems more likely to come from town paranoia.

I don’t know if I agree with this theory btw but it definitely seems more from a town who gets stuck on why his PR was taken.

Also, claiming that picking this role is suspicious is real cheeky when Umlaut himself was wanting to pick it. It’s the kind of hypocrisy that seems more town than scum.

[Something_Smart]

I do still want to hear DDL explain why he took rolecop, before we talk too much about it.

[Umlaut]

why do I have no opinion about what alignment this makes drdolittle

if it was ss I'd have a stronger opinion

Going to just throw out there that TW is either town or absolutely brilliant scum with this pair of posts.

[Umlaut]

Looking forward to the explanation of why Rolecop is a high-EV town role in a setup where any alignment can be any role.

So you don’t think some roles are AI?

Obviously I do since the whole basis of my reasoning here is that a role such as Rolecop can be AI. But there are much more direct ways available to learn alignments if you have your pick of roles.

Oh you’re saying just rolecop is NAI?

I'm not sure if you have something reversed here.

I think there are definitely roles that one alignment is more likely to pick than the other.
I also think if you want a role for figuring out alignments, you just take Cop instead of taking Rolecop and then trying to suss out alignment from roles.
I also think Rolecop itself is a better scum role than it is a town role.

[Green Crayons]

Oh I see what you meant by 1297

I thought you meant RC was NAI, but you are questioning the efficiency of picking RC when the roles a RC picks up can be chosen by anyone

[DrDolittle]

The truly ascertainable part of this game is that once you pick a pair, say cop and 1-shot redirect if you have 1-shot redirect, there is no interferences on the one-in-two that you decide to pick. In fact, in the above case, if you choose the 1-shot redirect you are essentially scumclaiming. And from the roles available 4 of them in my opinion has a clear scum favorite vs town favorite. It also happens that these 4, 3 of them are exceptionally strong pairs in general.

Cop

OR

1-Shot Redirector

Doctor

OR

Roleblocker

Jailkeeper

OR

Tracker

1-Shot Commuter

OR

1-Shot Watcher

What the rolecop in this game gets to do, is to investigate fully these 4 role-pairs (which are the roles that need to be figured out in general), in addition to keep eyes on VT/Goon roles and fake-claiming opportunities, which is infinitely more important than inheriting some role just neighbourizer. In my view, the rolecop in this game is just weaker than Cop in terms of power. Furthermore, as the number 1 pick, my job is also to deny scum their strongest possible picks and claims. The rolecop allows me to deny their counterpicks in Cop Doc and Tracker, and their relatively strong roles in JK, Roleblocker and and Role Cop itself.

I was actually pretty surprised that Marquis was scum after he claimed vig -- I didn't place very high weight in scum picking vig, because its utility is just one body; but I wasn't overly upset since Vig is negative town EV anyhow.

With that said, I actually changed my mind on the Umlaut scum read. I think in the case for which Umlaut goes for the UB/rolecop play, Marquis (pick 4) could then go for a riskier play in choosing Cop/Doc. The fact that he didn't indictates that they are unaligned together. However, what I thought my "contradiction" was was that Umlaut claimed that Vig should shoot asap, but earlier on last day, he also said that he thing vig should holster until a bit later, which I agreed on.

I don't think my crumb plays a role here? It's pretty clear that I picked role cop. It's your belief whether I am scum or town, but I'm sure to have investigated someon last night.

[DrDolittle]

However, what I thought my "contradiction" was was that Umlaut claimed that Vig should shoot asap, but earlier on last day, he also said that he thing vig should holster until a bit later, which I agreed on.

never I looped back to find the post and that was Green Crayons who suggested this

[DrDolittle]

The thing that is still bothering me is that Umlaut didn't think at all about the strong town-utility of Role Cop, which doesn't really mesh with that town!him decides to choose the backup-rolecop pair.

I still need to process this, but my kneejerk reaction is that he's upset that scum!laut's desired scum role got taken right under his nose as third pick? And that now he's slinging shade on me to say DDL chose RC -- that's the role I scum!laut wanted to pick so I'll recycle my reasons on why I think this role is good for scum to incriminate him.

[Umlaut]

However, what I thought my "contradiction" was was that Umlaut claimed that Vig should shoot asap, but earlier on last day, he also said that he thing vig should holster until a bit later, which I agreed on.

I know I didn't ever say that vig should holster until later, because I don't agree with it in general (and certainly not in A50's case where he was likely to be eliminated anyway). And looking at my own ISO I can't even see a post you could mistake for this.

[Datisi]

i don't think s_s was saying to crumb your role (it's pretty clear you're a rolecop), but to crumb your results.

anyway. does this mech check out? should drd claim his result? can we move on from this? find out next time~

[Umlaut]

However, what I thought my "contradiction" was was that Umlaut claimed that Vig should shoot asap, but earlier on last day, he also said that he thing vig should holster until a bit later, which I agreed on.

I know I didn't ever say that vig should holster until later, because I don't agree with it in general (and certainly not in A50's case where he was likely to be eliminated anyway). And looking at my own ISO I can't even see a post you could mistake for this.

oh, you already responded to this in 1314

[Umlaut]

The thing that is still bothering me is that Umlaut didn't think at all about the strong town-utility of Role Cop, which doesn't really mesh with that town!him decides to choose the backup-rolecop pair.

I still need to process this, but my kneejerk reaction is that he's upset that scum!laut's desired scum role got taken right under his nose as third pick? And that now he's slinging shade on me to say DDL chose RC -- that's the role I scum!laut wanted to pick so I'll recycle my reasons on why I think this role is good for scum to incriminate him.

Oooooor I just picked Universal Backup, not "the Backup-Rolecop pair." There's no reason for me to carefully consider the value of Role Cop specifically just because it is

paired with

the role I ultimately decide to send in.

[Something_Smart]

It's your belief whether I am scum or town, but I'm sure to have investigated someon last night.

Yes, but I don't want scum-you, several days down the road, to claim to have investigated someone who by then has claimed or flipped.

[Something_Smart]

i don't think s_s was saying to crumb your role (it's pretty clear you're a rolecop), but to crumb your results.

Ye

[Datisi]

s_s, i was hoping you were gonna answer the other questions in 1317 as well :c

[Something_Smart]

I mean it's up to him whether he should claim his result.

[Datisi]

i was asking more in a "what is The Mechanically Optimal Thing To Do" sense but sure