Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

Maybe I should just...not fucking try to explain things anymore??

like I don't REALLY want to go back and cite specific posts and say what I liked to justify thinking you're town that just seems like a huge waste of time

One thing that tends to annoy me in games is that I'm often a universal TR, but no one ever really explains it. I'm always incredibly curious but don't like to ask. This can be seen in virtually any game of mine, but it was absolutely the case in Undertale 2.0. Here I saw a chance to slip it in with Tanner.

I think finding me town based off of gut is valid and plausible. The part I didn't like about the read was that the reasoning provided was that I was "scumhunting consistently and reading critically." and "really looking at what people say". It's how I apply those things that are more important, imo, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe these things are a bit out of my scum repertoire.

It looks like you're frustrated that I didn't find your reason adequate, but you did similar with me much earlier when I gave my opinion on your strategic approach. Bad or implausible reasoning tends to come off worse than as-of-yet unknown reasoning. That's just kind of how it works. Save me the tears.

[Prism]

Cat read makes no sense past the "gut" point

Hectic wants to vote someone who can can obvown at any time because of Elements' friendly tone

I can't say that I like where this is heading

what do you mean by this post? it's not clicking for me, besides that you don't think kitty's read makes sense.

It's a first reaction based off the fact that Hectic is already a scumread and his treatment of fighting a potential free TR is reminiscent of a Nachoscum game I might dig up later (coincidentally, that was SvS)

It really just was another sketchy Hectic post that had me thinking I'm going to feel relief if beeboy flips scum and stupid for following my scumread's vote if they flip town.

[Chara]

"hey lavender post reads", *lavender posts reads*, "ok ur town"

i find Hectic's comparison to Lavender's other games makes this a... plausible conclusion and something he could think as town.
though it's funny, this is sort of how kitty's read on me feels. talking to him about it directly has been fun but not helpful, so i'd love your opinion.
he votes me for popping in and making mechanical statements but not hunting, then once i've caught up and put out content he unvotes. i press him on it, because he didn't really engage with the content, then he says i've gone back to neutral for him and he'll wait and see.
later, my explanation of a read is more in-depth than he'd expected, and he townreads me for it.
i liked that he did make the effort to go through my posts and find something to talk about.

ISOing the exchange would net more accurate info, this is just my memory of events.

...after typing all this out, it really does seem... fine? this progression makes sense. the evidence of his trying to sort me is certainly there, and i

am

very towny when i actually play the game.

anyways, i don't see a problem with giving readlists now. it's not like it's pointless if you aren't Not Chara, they're just useful.

[Prism]

To be clear, cat, I'm not expecting you to make a giant towncase for me citing specific posts or progressions. I know it's tedious and annoying, and it's part of why I rarely actually ask (which drives me up the wall, because I get my best reads in how others react to me imo)

But when you phrase it in such a way that makes it seem like you're townreading me for

reading the game

rather than in the choices I'm making, that's going to make me skeptical every time.

[Chara]

Hectic, would you mind giving me some fresh reads on Tanner, catboi, Taylor, and me?

[Chara]

i feel like i should be being way more aggressive than i am currently being.

[Prism]

What makes you feel that way?

[Chara]

it's advice Ellibereth gave me a while ago, combined with a general belief that focused pressure on a slot is more useful than the "hmm, i have bad feelings here but there's also things that i could see from town" trap that i feel like i keep stumbling into this game, with respect to Hectic and kitty both.

[Prism]

Chara, turns out you were in the game I'm talking about in 951, where I caught Nacho because he was pushing to eliminate someone (Aristo) early that should have been a free TR to him later. Coincidentally SvS.

[Chara]

oh boy, that's an Almost Chara game. looks like Almost had to replace in on his main at some point, which would explain why i don't remember it.
i mean, it's a similar situation... but with different players. predicated on Hectic believing he can read beeboy with considerable accuracy.

[Isis]

Spare Votecount 1.8

Hectic--------------------------

beeboy-----------------------

Chara---------------------------

(2) Chara, catboi

Prism --------------------------

PookyTheMagicalBear -------

(1) PookyTheMagicalBear

catboi--------------------------

(1) Morning Tweet

Morning Tweet----------------

(2) Tayl0r Swift, Hectic

Tayl0r Swift -------------------

Lavender ----------------------

redtea --------------------------

Tanner -------------------------

CantLynchAPuppy-------------

(1) CantLynchAPuppy

Not sparing:

- (5) Prism, Lavender, redtea, Tanner, beeboy

Fight Votecount 1.8

Hectic--------------------------

(1) Prism

beeboy-----------------------

(4) Chara, Hectic, catboi , CantLynchAPuppy

Chara---------------------------

(2) redtea, Tayl0r Swift,

Prism --------------------------

PookyTheMagicalBear -------

catboi--------------------------

Morning Tweet----------------

Tayl0r Swift -------------------

(1) catboi

Lavender ----------------------

(1) Tanner

redtea --------------------------

Tanner -------------------------

CantLynchAPuppy-------------

Not Fighting:

- (3) PookyTheMagicalBear, Lavender, beeboy

Tayl0r Swift appreciated that she was not the center of attention and that Chara was. She knew that if they tumbled and fell, they would hold onto attention even longer.
She sang a marching song to "help" them, but deliberately sang offrhythm, hoping they'd trip.
"Huup, hup, two. Huup, hutwo! ~"
Fortunately for Chara, their human ears could not hear some of Tayl0r Swift's unearthly high pitches, and most of the effect was lost. It was still distracting and made them want to turn towards the squeaky sound, but standing so close to the ledge without the help of arms, they felt as though they couldn't risk the indulgence of curiousity.

---

With 12 alive and unspared, it takes 7 votes to make a decision.
The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-09-15 15:27:24)

[catboi]

To be clear, cat, I'm not expecting you to make a giant towncase for me citing specific posts or progressions. I know it's tedious and annoying, and it's part of why I rarely actually ask (which drives me up the wall, because I get my best reads in how others react to me imo)

But when you phrase it in such a way that makes it seem like you're townreading me for

reading the game

rather than in the choices I'm making, that's going to make me skeptical every time.

I don't know how to evaluate the choices you are making because I don't know what anyone's alignment is so the most I've got is ~vibes~

[Hectic]

I can't read beeboy with considerable accuracy. I've played one game with beeboy where he was very obvtown and was heavened (purgatory setup), 1 town game where he was pretty towny, 2 where he wasn't, and a scumgame where he was similar to the latter two towngames as far as I recall. You're reading too much into my comment; all I was saying is that he has the

potential

to obvtown hard, but it's not very often from my experience anyway.

Chara, I'll look into those reads you requested tomorrow.

[beeboy]

I made myself sick right after joining this game and it realllllyyy sucks.
Unlikely I am capable of going from sick -> probably burn out -> high preformance. If that is what you guys are waiting for.
Given I am only on step 1 right now >_>

[beeboy]

hectic - probably town. stop being a goof though, and while i agree that deciding lavender is town rather than scum is passing on an opportunity for opportunism, it feels like a weak read
elements - beeboy hasnt really done anything to make me townread that slot (yet)
chara - am i the only one thinking chara might be scum here? chara let themself be talked into scumreading me pretty easily, and seems to float around the popular opinions a lot but never do much scumhunting
prism - prolly just town
pooky - definitely town
catboi - i still have misgivings
morning - those ears could never be scum
lavender - needs more content, in PoE
redtea - i dont remember any posts from this slot. i guess at some point i should read the iso but its not a good sign if they arent doing anything worth remembering. could just be the awolness that made me forget
tanner - prolly just town
puppy - hasnt really done much townie recently, but was a townread earlier

so that makes my PoE chara, lavender, redtea, puppy. out of those i want to HURT: chara

Ok so I've made it my vow to at least read every post from when I've replaced in, even if I can't will myself to read from the start.

I really hate this post overall, it's literally just positioning and nothing more.
The seperation between, me, red tea, lavender is literally nothing yet I dodge the POE somehow.

I think this post has instances in which reads could be explained such as the puppy read. Like I understand not having a reasoning for a read but avoiding explaining the shift on let's say puppy is just weird to me and usually just scummy.

Chara read is really the only explained one and to be fair is the one that gets voted, but it just feels like a giant fluff post to hide having to engage Chara on a deeper level in order to smoothly place the vote.

[beeboy]

im down for a beeboy wagon

Then the instant swap here after being prodded about me lol.

[beeboy]

Just wondering: what parts of the thread have you read?

since my replace in and literally nothing more.
And that's all I am willing to promise until I feel healthy again

[catboi]

To be clear, cat, I'm not expecting you to make a giant towncase for me citing specific posts or progressions. I know it's tedious and annoying, and it's part of why I rarely actually ask (which drives me up the wall, because I get my best reads in how others react to me imo)

But when you phrase it in such a way that makes it seem like you're townreading me for

reading the game

rather than in the choices I'm making, that's going to make me skeptical every time.

I don't know how to evaluate the choices you are making because I don't know what anyone's alignment is so the most I've got is ~vibes~

But no, it's not reading the game and I feel like acting like that's what I'm saying isn't fair? You seem to be critically evaluating people's posts. For where things are right now, that's the best I have.

[catboi]

HURT: tayor

I missed that swap when I was looking back earlier.

[beeboy]

To some degree I want to town read MT for Hectic's "Top secret meta read", since good players tend to not say that without a real reason to do so.
But I also think I could probably read her on my own since I am fairly experienced playing with her, and she did perceive herself to be scum in one game even if she was town and could have thought it was multiball.

what's your read on Hectic, beeboy?

I don't have one yet, he hasn't done much on the pages I've read.
I wouldn't say he is giving me a lukewarm feeling but much like his comment on me about the purgatory game I've seen preform at a much higher level then this in terms of towniness.

I think in general I have this mentality that comes from me playing 50p+ games on MU where accepting you can just sheep a read from someone who you don't necessarily town read is usually more +EV then it is not. Given Hectic is town 75% of the time and the 25% of the time he is scum he probably isn't going deep on meta casing a buddy.
And generally ever since I started applying me 50p+ game methodology to regular games of meta my performance has gone uphill.

[Prism]

I get that I'm being a bit harsh but this seems fake to me. You know exactly what I mean, and are really going out of your way to use taking offense to get me to accept an explanation we both know says absolutely nothing about my alignment.

It's okay to not have an idea of actually AI things, and winging it on gut is totally valid, but going "But [these known Prism nulltells] are the best I have!" and "Maybe I shouldn't even explain at all!' pouting feels really disingenuous

[Prism]

Maybe I'm the problem here between you and Hectic both taking issue with my simplifications? I'm a lot more sympathetic to Hectic's point here than yours though.

[beeboy]

HEAL: Morning Tweet
HURT: Tayl0r Swift

I am fine doing either of these really?
Top to buy more time, bottom because I very much am happy with that read

[catboi]

I get that I'm being a bit harsh but this seems fake to me. You know exactly what I mean, and are really going out of your way to use taking offense to get me to accept an explanation we both know says absolutely nothing about my alignment.

It's okay to not have an idea of actually AI things, and winging it on gut is totally valid, but going "But [these known Prism nulltells] are the best I have!" and "Maybe I shouldn't even explain at all!' pouting feels really disingenuous

disingenuous to what purpose? To avoid justifying a townread on you? Like what the fuck? ( ≧Д≦)

[Prism]

Honestly I think I'm just annoyed because these were cursory comments that turned into talking points via continued engagement. I don't think me being skeptical of the reasons I directly quoted in #950 is unreasonable. I've already said gut is valid and perfection isn't required, but bad reasoning is worse than unknown. That is again just how it works.