Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[RCEnigma]

Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.

If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.

[callforjudgement]

It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.

I disagree with this; if not for the claim, I would be voting Italiano today and hoping that other people would follow me there (and I don't think I'm the only person suspicious of him; Not_Mafia wanted him vigged, so presumably that was a scumread, and it wasn't me who pushed him to a claim in the first place). He has been one of the scummiest players both Day 1 and Day 2 (admittedly, this may be because being confirmable as town means that you don't have to try to look town).

(As for your mention of "twilight", that would be a terrible time to out a target, because it would give us no time to react if the target claimed not to receive the message, and it's probably worse in most respects than claiming the following day. Half the reason to claim it early is to give us time to react if it turns out that we need to react because the message didn't go through and/or the recipient fakeclaims that it didn't go through. I also have a mild scumread on Italiano's target (assuming that the action went through) because they didn't claim it; it would be nice if I could make use of that to inform my scumhunting, but I currently can't do that reliably because I don't know for certain who it is.)

At least in a Normal, it's theoretically incorrect to vote out a Friendly Neighbour claim without at least giving them a second chance to prove themself, so I don't expect to be voting for Italiano today. However, I am a lot more likely to sheep him if he does turn out to provably town.

[RCEnigma]

It's hard not to wanna lynch you.

[RCEnigma]

Elim you*

[RCEnigma]

Do you believe Shelly lurked out of the game because they were the designated buss or not?

[WaltertheDunce10]

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

Fuck no
I will let him or his target do it.
I won't answer for either of them.

[callforjudgement]

Do you believe Shelly lurked out of the game because they were the designated buss or not?

I don't know. I think it's possible, especially if Walter is scum. I also, however, think it's possible that she somehow managed to forget that this game exists (she's new, perhaps she doesn't use egosearch, got prodded while busy and then forgot about the prod by the time she was ready to play again).

It might be worth looking into this in more detail: the prod on shelly was made public in #789 (Friday 4 September 2020 18:42:55 UTC), and prods are generally made public only a few minutes after they're sent (because the mod normally performs all modding actions related to a game at about the same time). Shelly's next post after that time was post 420 of newbie 2027 (which fortunately has since been completed, so I can talk about it), around 6 hours later. Her previous post before the prod (which was about 3 hours before it happened) implied that she was going offline for a while:

imma head off for a bit though if you want to give me game feedback.

Shelly's timezone / sleep pattern appears to be one where she sleeps in the evening UTC, waking up at around midnight UTC:

I just woke up 10 mins ago

So she was probably prodded shortly after she went to bed. If she woke up to find a prod and then started posting in other games, it's hard to see how the lurking-to-replacement couldn't have been intentional. It's a little unlikely that she was prodded while on the point of sleep, read the prod PM and then forgot about the game overnight, because of what her previous post said and the normal timings (most but not all people sleep more than 6 hours per day). It does, however, seem possible that she woke up, checked her email/PMs, did things other than Mafiascum for a while and had forgotten about this game by the time she started posting in earnest.

(I guess there's also a small chance of a mod error. Completely ignoring one game you're playing in, while playing actively in others, is really strange behaviour as any alignment; some of the players I've seen who are in lots of games and not enjoying all of them will lurk to the point of prodding, but will almost invariably come back to make a post or two when prodded. This seems to increase the chance that something went wrong when sending the prod.)

[Gamma Emerald]

Does anyone have anything they’d like my opinion on or anything? I feel like a wallflower rn

[callforjudgement]

Here's something I'd like the opinion of someone else on: do you think Raya is trying to pocket me? I've been townreading Raya this game, mostly for defending me / stating a townread on me in circumstances where scum would have no reason to defend me or could easily push me (but where town would be likely to gain more of a townread on me), but I'm starting to wonder whether that's because Raya wants me to townread her, rather than because she's picking up towntells from me.

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t think he’s specifically pocketing you, but looking at his ISO he kinda seems like he’s not scumhunting like I think he should be based on the opinions he’s expressed, so I could see him as scum

[Raya36]

It isn't a big deal and if his target doesn't out he can just out it before deadline or preferably in twilight.

And what if they still don't

[ItalianoVD]

I think this is a good time for Italiano to claim who he sent the message to

Why?

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter,

then it almost has to be you cfj.

Yup.

Because of exactly what cfj said in 1185. All this is doing is hurting town. There is no reason for you not to claim who the message was sent to. If you have a reason I'd like to hear it.

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

Tell me in your own words why it’s “hurting” town? Do you know?

[ItalianoVD]

It isn't a big deal and if his target doesn't out he can just out it before deadline or preferably in twilight.

And what if they still don't

I’ve already made a promise.

The person I targeted knows who they are and I would rather them confirm. Before the day is out the town will know who I targeted whether confirmed by me or them.

[callforjudgement]

Isn't it somewhat likely at this point that the person you targeted is scum (assuming that your action went through, which you seem to be assuming even though I haven't)? They've failed to confirm you despite numerous opportunities and numerous people trying to convince them to do so, when there is no pro-town reason not to, and when they've been asked to do so by you (who should be confirmed town to them and thus they should be following your instructions).

[callforjudgement]

EBWOP: which you seem to be assuming even though I'm not

[Gamma Emerald]

Who hasn’t at least given vague indications they didn’t get a message?

[Raya36]

I think this is a good time for Italiano to claim who he sent the message to

Why?

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter,

then it almost has to be you cfj.

Yup.

Because of exactly what cfj said in 1185. All this is doing is hurting town. There is no reason for you not to claim who the message was sent to. If you have a reason I'd like to hear it.

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

Tell me in your own words why it’s “hurting” town? Do you know?

1. Without you being confirmed because your message receiver hasn't spoken up puts suspicion on your slot. I honestly am thinking you're lying at this point but as a town reaction test, see how people react to an unconfirmed FN claim and see who tries to push it etc. This makes no sense coming from scum.

2. It does make reading players harder when one of the major events is your FN claim. The other major event being the Shelly wagon and contemplation on why it happened. I've been assuming you're town when reading but I hate trying to get reads on other players based on any associations with you. Especially knowing full well any reads slightly related to you could end up being thrown out and fully reevaluated. And I know I don't have to consider interactions with you and assume you're town but that's how I think when I read games. As soon as I confirm someone as town or locktown a player I start to think about how other players interacted with them.

3. If we find out last minute that you're not confirmed and could possibly be scum then that puts town in a pretty bad position, especially if any aspect of our reads are based on you being town. It means we would have to fully reevaluate with not much time left which could lead to a bad decision. I would also hate for a mis-elimination to go through knowing that we didn't have all the information we could have had and maybe with that information could've gotten scum.

[Raya36]

Isn't it somewhat likely at this point that the person you targeted is scum (assuming that your action went through, which you seem to be assuming even though I haven't)? They've failed to confirm you despite numerous opportunities and numerous people trying to convince them to do so, when there is no pro-town reason not to, and when they've been asked to do so by you (who should be confirmed town to them and thus they should be following your instructions).

I have a feeling this is true. This is why I'm pushing so hard for it to be claimed. Because for someone to hold it back this long for no apparent reasons besides I suppose reactions tests makes no sense. Its scummy and anti-town at best.

[Tayl0r Swift]

It isn't a big deal and if his target doesn't out he can just out it before deadline or preferably in twilight.

And what if they still don't

I’ve already made a promise.

The person I targeted knows who they are and I would rather them confirm. Before the day is out the town will know who I targeted whether confirmed by me or them.

dont wait until twilight. what if twilight is short today and you arent around and then you die and your target was scum. just claim it. theres nothing gained by waiting. this is info and clearly people are hung up on it.

[ItalianoVD]

Isn't it somewhat likely at this point that the person you targeted is scum

Uhh, no.

(assuming that your action went through, which you seem to be assuming even though I haven't)?

Is it in your meta to assume as much as you do? I’m finding it very awkward and bothersome.

They've failed to confirm you despite

numerous

opportunities and

numerous

people trying to convince them to do so

So what?

...and when they've been asked to do so by you (who should be confirmed town to them and thus they should be following your instructions).

I’ve never asked anything.

[ItalianoVD]

dont wait until twilight. what if twilight is short today and you arent around and then you die and your target was scum. just claim it. theres nothing gained by waiting. this is info and clearly people are hung up on it.

Do you wanna claim what role you have?

[ItalianoVD]

I think this is a good time for Italiano to claim who he sent the message to

Why?

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter,

then it almost has to be you cfj.

Yup.

Because of exactly what cfj said in 1185. All this is doing is hurting town. There is no reason for you not to claim who the message was sent to. If you have a reason I'd like to hear it.

If it is a fakeclaim then why tell me in neighbor chat where he sent it too.
That would out his scumbuddy.

If you know you should be telling us. Italiano is hurting town and you holding back info is hurting town too.

Tell me in your own words why it’s “hurting” town? Do you know?

1. Without you being confirmed because your message receiver hasn't spoken up puts suspicion on your slot. I honestly am thinking you're lying at this point but as a town reaction test, see how people react to an unconfirmed FN claim and see who tries to push it etc. This makes no sense coming from scum.

2. It does make reading players harder when one of the major events is your FN claim. The other major event being the Shelly wagon and contemplation on why it happened. I've been assuming you're town when reading but I hate trying to get reads on other players based on any associations with you. Especially knowing full well any reads slightly related to you could end up being thrown out and fully reevaluated. And I know I don't have to consider interactions with you and assume you're town but that's how I think when I read games. As soon as I confirm someone as town or locktown a player I start to think about how other players interacted with them.

3. If we find out last minute that you're not confirmed and could possibly be scum then that puts town in a pretty bad position, especially if any aspect of our reads are based on you being town. It means we would have to fully reevaluate with not much time left which could lead to a bad decision. I would also hate for a mis-elimination to go through knowing that we didn't have all the information we could have had and maybe with that information could've gotten scum.

This all sounds oddly familiar.

[ItalianoVD]

Isn't it somewhat likely at this point that the person you targeted is scum (assuming that your action went through, which you seem to be assuming even though I haven't)? They've failed to confirm you despite numerous opportunities and numerous people trying to convince them to do so, when there is no pro-town reason not to, and when they've been asked to do so by you (who should be confirmed town to them and thus they should be following your instructions).

I have a feeling this is true. This is why I'm pushing so hard for it to be claimed. Because for someone to hold it back this long for no apparent reasons besides I suppose reactions tests makes no sense. Its scummy and anti-town at best.

So then I should just vote for you, put you at L-1 and then claim the target? Then someone can hammer you?

[callforjudgement]

...and when they've been asked to do so by you (who should be confirmed town to them and thus they should be following your instructions).

I’ve never asked anything.

The person I targeted knows who they are and I would rather them confirm.

OK, that isn't technically a question, but I think it's close enough to use the word "asked".

I am amazed that you are going to this much effort to intentionally antagonize me, and everyone else asking you, for no obvious pro-town reason. Your behaviour over the last few pages has been much more similar to caught scum than it has to confirmed town. (This is, of course, what's fuelling and intensifying the calls for you to stop stalling and just solve the issue that could be trivially solved – because given that you are acting like caught scum, people are starting to read you as having fakeclaimed, and thus expecting you to

become

caught scum in a few pages from now, once your claim turns out to be impossible to substantiate. Or to put it another way, if you're fed up with the conversation about your night action, simply claiming it would be a trivially simple way to get town back on track, and the most likely consequence of continuing to refuse to claim it will be to increase the number and vehemence of people calling on you to claim it.)

[ItalianoVD]

Four.