Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[callforjudgement]

Also, I should mention that I can't think of any possible combination of Normal roles for which my answer would allow you to confirm a player (who you didn't already know was town) as town. (The closest I can get is Disloyal Rolestopper, but that wouldn't have prevented me from receiving the message regardless of its wording.)

This is part of the reason I'm so suspicious of your motivations here.

[callforjudgement]

I said I wouldn't really fight my elim but 1589 is wrong in so many ways. I'll respond in ehhh the next 5ish hours.

It's been much more than 5 hours now.

Your statement here is generally suspicious because there's obviously a lot of scum motivation in a) quickhammering someone, b) saying "if that person flips town, eliminate me" in twilight to try to make people think you're town, c) backpedalling on it the next Day in order to try to avoid that elimination; and it is separately suspicious because if you have the time to read a long post and spot errors/mistakes in it, it doesn't take much longer to point those issues out.

Producing "if player X is scum, this is what happened and how" posts is one of the scumhunting techniques that I've found to be more successful in practice. If the conclusions you reach don't hang together / don't make sense / are contradicted by later developments, then the assumption was wrong; that's one way in which it helps. But the other way in which it helps is as a reaction test; if the targeted player is town, then they'll know for a fact that the listed scenario is wrong, which makes them better at spotting mistakes in it, so you tend to get some explanations in reply, or some "did you consider this?" options. If the targeted player is scum, it's more likely to be correct (thus harder to find any mistakes in it), and they're more likely to try to discredit it in a general way rather than by attacking the reasoning.

In this case, you apparently haven't been able to find any flaws in it despite having over 12 hours more than you said you needed (otherwise surely you'd have posted them?). I know people sometimes disappear after saying they're going to make a post, but this is a really suspicious timing for that to happen.

I expect to see you post a list of flaws in #1589 within 20 minutes of your next post. If you don't post them, that will be decent evidence that you were lying when you said the post was wrong in "so many ways". If you do, then we can discuss my reasoning; maybe you'll even convince me (or the rest of the town) that you're town!

[callforjudgement]

Also, VOTE: Gamma pending an explanation of the recent rolefishing (and an answer to #1649).

At the moment, I can't see any set of circumstances in which Gamma, if he had been paying attention / correctly following the game, could truthfully be making the statements about Italiano's Friendly Neighbour PM that he has made so far.

I can see circumstances in which Gamma might be making those statements if he hadn't been paying attention / thinking things through properly / had misread something, in which case he has (by pushing me this hard) revealed a lot of important information to scum for no good reason, which would be a hugely anti-town way to act (but not outright scummy). An explanation might help figure the situation, and I hope I can ask oblique enough questions to get at one without revealing yet more information. Alternatively, it's possible that there's something

very

screwy going on here (beyond what I can easily imagine could happen in a Normal setup), in which case we need to figure out what's going on fairly quickly; and it's also possible that there may be a 1v1 at this point if Gamma's information outright contradicts mine.

One final possibility, if people are going to insist on spilling out all the hidden information about roles that exists, would be a massclaim. I don't think that this would be helpful (especially in a daytalk setup, where there's no advantage in an unexpected massclaim because scum get to discuss their fakeclaims anyway) – at least, it wouldn't have been if Gamma hadn't been rolefishing so strongly and leaked it, and probably won't be even now. But if people are getting excessively paranoid about everything going on behind the scenes, it might be that the damage to town from the massclaim would be less than the damage to town from the sort of nonsense Gamma is doing now.

[Frogsterking]

I don't think a mass claim is best yet.

[callforjudgement]

Also, I should mention that I can't think of any possible combination of Normal roles for which my answer would allow you to confirm a player (who you didn't already know was town) as town. (The closest I can get is Disloyal Rolestopper, but that wouldn't have prevented me from receiving the message regardless of its wording.)

This is part of the reason I'm so suspicious of your motivations here.

Actually, I'll challenge Gamma with this too:

Please list a combination of Normal roles for which the answer you pressed me for in #1648, and I confirmed in #1649, could possibly cause you to learn that a player is town (i.e. before the answer, you didn't know the player was town; after the answer, you do). They don't have to be the actual combination of Normal roles that caused you to ask the question (ideally, they should be a combination that isn't the actual circumstance, so as not to give away your role; obviously, don't say whether they are or not). Just, any combination of roles at all that could exist within a Normal game.

If you can't find one, then you have, in effect, been lying repeatedly in order to force a claim. There is no town motivation for this at all, and it directly hurts town for obvious reasons.

If you can find one, but think that it would give too much information away about players' roles to tell the town as a whole what it is, then try to at least give partial information, so that I can figure out what is going on / going through your mind. In particular, my question in #1649 should, I believe, be safe to answer, and may help focus my thoughts on the matter (although I currently can't find a combination that works either with a "yes" or with a "no" answer).

[callforjudgement]

…actually, I found one, but it's so stupid that it can't possibly be correct, so I'll add one extra condition: your combination of roles must not include a) multiple players (other than you) who are already confirmed to you as town and have used their action in a suboptimal way, combined with a multirole that can use multiple investigative actions in a night; or b) a player who was, prior to asking the question, confirmed to you as scum.

[callforjudgement]

…and another, which is a little less silly but still ridiculously silly, and which might cause Gamma to have violated site rules if correct. I'll leave that one to Gamma to find.

[Nosferatu]

The literal answer to your question is "no".

is this a typo? theres no reason to lie abt this

[Nosferatu]

yesterday everyone was all anti wifom but today we wanna stop claims bruh? with raya out of the way we can just solve the game imo

[Nosferatu]

>=1 obvscum in {rce, gamma}
<= 1 sleeperscum in {walter,frogster}

we can clear and just move on with our lives

[callforjudgement]

The literal answer to your question is "no".

is this a typo? theres no reason to lie abt this

I knew this would happen. This is why I was accusing Gamma of rolefishing: because the truth would inevitably come out when you got to the thread.

I received a Friendly Neighbour PM last night. It was

not

sent by ItalianoVD, but by a different player (and contains that player's name, and confirms that player as town). The post was intended to clarify to that player that I had received their PM.

I expressed a townread on Italiano in the same post (#1570) to avoid disclosing to scum that there was a second Friendly Neighbour in the setup. That townread was not based on mod information, but rather on the fact that Nosferatu had confirmed Italiano as town in twilight of Day 2 (which is really all the information that should be needed).

[callforjudgement]

(This Friendly Neighbour PM listing an unexpected player is the "unexpected PM" I talked about in #1646.)

[Nosferatu]

cool

[callforjudgement]

Ooh, an idea that could explain Gamma's actions…

@

Gamma

: Did you receive

Italiano's

Friendly Neighbour PM Night 2? That would explain your actions here; you would naturally assume that I'd fakeclaimed to receive Italiano's PM for some reason, and would be hoping to catch me in a contradiction (in this scenario, you'd be lying about the "confirms a player as town" reason for pressuring me in order to reduce the chance I caught on). The question in this scenario would be intended as a subtle way to check for a second Friendly Neighbour (with you forgetting that Nosferatu would be able to counterclaim a "no" answer and thus it would reveal the existence of a second Friendly Neighbour in the case that I was town).

[Frogsterking]

Ooh, an idea that could explain Gamma's actions…

@

Gamma

: Did you receive

Italiano's

Friendly Neighbour PM Night 2? That would explain your actions here; you would naturally assume that I'd fakeclaimed to receive Italiano's PM for some reason, and would be hoping to catch me in a contradiction (in this scenario, you'd be lying about the "confirms a player as town" reason for pressuring me in order to reduce the chance I caught on). The question in this scenario would be intended as a subtle way to check for a second Friendly Neighbour (with you forgetting that Nosferatu would be able to counterclaim a "no" answer and thus it would reveal the existence of a second Friendly Neighbour in the case that I was town).

I thought of two more possibilities.

[ItalianoVD]

@Frogster: It seems like you’re grasping for straws at this point. CFJ is my scum partner now? Well then Nosferatu would have to be scum too since he confirmed my night action huh?

CFJ is now getting a full townread from me. CFJ, you do not have to say anything about anything and I commend you for being a cool guy.



My guess is someone tried to roleblock me while killing Taylor and was surprised that the tfn still was able to get through.

[Frogsterking]

@Frogster: It seems like you’re grasping for straws at this point. CFJ is my scum partner now? Well then Nosferatu would have to be scum too since he confirmed my night action huh?

CFJ is now getting a full townread from me. CFJ, you do not have to say anything about anything and I commend you for being a cool guy.



My guess is someone tried to roleblock me while killing Taylor and was surprised that the tfn still was able to get through.

I'm grasping for straws like you're blind as a bat.

[WaltertheDunce10]

I will take a look at this in the morning
I joined a 48/24 and was busy with that.

[Frogsterking]

Going on VC's alone I'd probably go CFJ today. For CFJ to be town AND have banana NOT position themselves on wagon would require an sjreaver + nos team.

Since we know for sure at the height of the CFJ wagon (E-2) Banana was off wagon and Raya had expressed CFJ as a top scumread while vote parking elsewhere. It wouldn't have taken much for scum to push that wagon through.

This seems reasonable, what happened to this train of thought?

@

Frogsterking

: Have you forgotten your screenfuls-long posts on Nosferatu? #255 and #288.

By comparison, you did basically nothing to push shelly. You had a mild scumread in #488 and didn't make any cases for a stronger read all Day (and admitted as much in #784). The only actual pushing you did was #854, very late in the Day (it's after the deadline freeze had occurred).

You're currently posting as though you had a super-strong read on shelly throughout, but your day 1 posts don't match that very well.

I believe this is an instance CFJ showed he was working with too much information. How does he

know

that Nos is town in this situation? Even if you have good reasons for a near-conftown read on Nos early D2, how can you be so certain of the alignment of multiple unflipped players to offset my reads which have already flipped correctly?

I gave too much slack here on D2 to his response:

Nosferatu isn't confirmed town. He is very likely town, though, especially given that a) he was the person who decided the D1 elimination and b) he should be an easy slot for scum to push given the general playstyle, and yet we haven't seen serious pushes on it from anyone since early Day 1 (such slots are nearly always town in practice).

c)

Also, this is what I mean by your reads being bad; in this game, you've already shown a tendency to jump to conclusions and then stick to them / overblow them even when they don't make much sense, like you did on Nosferatu. Even if he does somehow turn out to be scum, your read on him will

still

have been a bad one, because it wasn't convincing to anyone else.

There are three arguments in this post, with the second paragraph being the third argument. I'll touch on each briefly here:

a) Nosferatu didn't decide the D1 lynch, and even if he did, how did you know it wasn't a bus?

b) This argument doesn't make any sense, he had already been pushed for this very reason once this game, and Banana, a flipped scum, defended Nos, so clearly mafia have more than one way to approach a game state that contains players like Nos.

c) The second paragraph here is a redirection which isn't addressing the scum tell you exhibited at all. My ability to persuade other players to lynch Nosferatu has nothing to do with your knowledge that Nosferatu is town. And even if it did, being able to persuade other players to lynch someone is different than having good reads.

During this point in time you infer that I'm town with bad reads, when the only flipped townie, Not_Mafia, I did not FoS. So there are two issues that you never addressed D2:

1) How were you so certain of the alignment of enough unflipped players to come to the conclusion I had bad reads in the first place,

2) How the fuck do you then come to the conclusion that I'm

town

because of this?

It gets worse though, because now there have been two lynches, the first lynch where you voted a probable townie and tried to pull the vote off a confirmed scum, and the second lynch where you voted a now-confirmed townie where the second highest leading bandwagon is a now-probable scum. This second lynch mind you came AFTER derailing discussion by "defending" Raya for like what, a week? Only to quietly hop on her BW end of day like it was the most obvious progression from your slot.

And now you are "magically" just here with the outted pr left alive from yesterday who town reads you??

[geraintm]

Are you saying you think scum!Nosferatu and scum!RCEnima would be voting together? As partners?

i have frogster there too, and i think i have them coming off worse from my looking over the votes. RCenigma is my second, nosferatu i guess third but i think there should be a clear gap between rcenigma and nos.

I'm still trying to understand what exactly you thought was suspicious end of day 2. Do you care to elaborate?

im in online training all day today, I will get back to this, promise. excuse patchy quick post

gamma and CFJ are playing adifferent game to me and I wish I was in on it

I guess I’m asking you a hypothetical. Do you think both scumpartners would be on both wagons together back to back days like that? How likely do you think that is?

I guess it isn't that likely.

I guess I’m asking you a hypothetical. Do you think both scumpartners would be on both wagons together back to back days like that? How likely do you think that is?

ain't clear to me

frgoster 1362 - you come to the same conclusion about RCenigma tat I did in my post 1602

VOTE: rcenigma
@looker - among us is indeed mafia on steroids

[geraintm]

I misquoted in the last post. The aint clear to me was about frogster and his theory on scum partners

[geraintm]

I know this is insane, but I'm actually speculating on an Italiano + CFJ team right now, and there is a very clear reason why.

this was the bit j meant to say wasn't clear to ne

[Frogsterking]

I know this is insane, but I'm actually speculating on an Italiano + CFJ team right now, and there is a very clear reason why.

this was the bit j meant to say wasn't clear to ne

Yeah I was having a bit of a brain poop moment. In the moment I didn't understand how Italiano was able to get a FN off and forgot Nos had already confirmed him.

[geraintm]

What do you think is going to happen over the course of the next 48 hours?

maybe youll stop blatantly rolefishing or youll be the one at L-2?

yep, it is a bad look for frogster.
they have the appearance of someone who has their vote placed no where useful, but want to be on a lynch but can't work out an easy way to get there. and then list 3 different places (raya, gamma and CFJ) where they are already starting to think about going.

VOTE: Gamma I'm going to go ahead and adjust my vote here but I will move it back to CFJ in a heartbeat. I believe CFJ is open wolfing, Gamma is coasting. Raya is my third choice for likely scum flip but still light years away from these two.

oh look, frogster moves their vote...to someone with no other votes?

Is it Frogster fishing or do you think he actually intends to hammer

oh, I am 99% sure they have no intention to hammer and want a claim.

frogster, you asked what I didn't like about your play at end of day 2.
quoting what I wrote before

[WaltertheDunce10]

VOTE: rce
I still think he seems scummy due to the fakeclaim