Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Krazy]

i feel like you're starting with the conclusion of me being scum more than you're trying to read me in good faith.

Hectic has never falsely townread me -- wouldn't you say that's a valid defense?

lol no

I'm not familiar with sample size you're talking about but even then I've played enough with Hectic to not pretend like he has a 100% readrate. His reads are definitely above rand but I wouldn't take them just on faith especially when I don't even know his alignment 100%

[Prism]

Morning, I get that regardless of what Hectic is this read is going to be trustable FYPOV, but I'm with Krazy here in that I refuse to trust reads that I can't see the reasoning for myself. Hectic refuses to out it so to me it might as well be worthless even if he flips.

This is secondary, and I haven't tried to pick a fight over it, but refusing to out it is imo horrible for both of you as players and for the health of the games you play, period.

[CantHateAPuppy]

@hectic what do you think about the catboi NK not really making sense if redtea is scum? Catboi was one of the few people who was town-slotting red-tea hard - I don't see why the NK falls here when there are so many better townread players here..

Oh, really? I'd completely overlooked that.

Guess I need to do more research tomorrow.

actually it was the NKA not the meta but this is the post I was thinking about -- it feels like Hectic was like, yeah need to look into that, and then the next day forgot he made this post and returned to TunnelVision[TM]

hm.

@hectic

?

[Prism]

Krazy, I'm about to go back over MT, but the sequence of 651, 671, and 676 might be of interest to you. As background, sparing was basically universally shotdown already, and iirc Hectic made a slight mistake about how Chara worked that made him give up on this spare plan revival attempt.

[Krazy]

Yeah the Hectic/Tweet interactions are definitely weird. My inclination would be that Hectic is just wrong and Tweet is using him to shield but there's room for error in that take

[Morning Tweet]

Morning, I get that regardless of what Hectic is this read is going to be trustable FYPOV, but I'm with Krazy here in that I refuse to trust reads that I can't see the reasoning for myself. Hectic refuses to out it so to me it might as well be worthless even if he flips.

This is secondary, and I haven't tried to pick a fight over it, but refusing to out it is imo horrible for both of you as players and for the health of the games you play, period.

Fair enough about not trusting others' reads if they can't explain them outright. It is beyond obvious to me that I can't be scum at this point but I should keep in mind it isn't to others

I am aware of the differences between my town and scum game -- it's black and white to me and if you play against me long enough I can only imagine it would start to become pretty noticeable. It's really different because I have a strong dislike for playing scum. That kind of thing is difficult to hide!

The specific thing he picks up on, I do not know. It doesn't exactly matter when I can't emulate my town self well at all as scum anyway. I feel a bit bad I'm not able to be a harder solve than that but ya

[Prism]

Morning, it looks like you never really explained why you gained more confidence in the Elements vote as time went on. Can you discuss your progression on that slot a bit more?

230 is by far your best statement of a case on Elements. 279 you dial it back a bit and explain why. In 415 they take your second lowest slot, but the only statement in your notes seems to have them as +town. 563 you seem to be coming around to him as more null/town. You flip your vote to Tayl0r from Elements somewhere in the 400s, but never really explained it. You pull back after their readslist. In 916 Elements/beeboy are back on the bottom with no explanation, and you vote beeboy to make it X-2. 1023 agrees with beeboy on Tayl0r, but by 1037 you're back to voting beeboy and having them at the bottom of your list.

Can you explain more around your two votes+the unvote between of beeboy, why you felt better and better about fighting that slot over time, and what made them perennially at the bottom of the list for you?

As a sidenote, I'm also curious because you made a point for redtea town that is a big part of why I townread the slot in 563. What do you think of it now?

[Tayl0r Swift]

why does no one think lavender is scum here?

[Prism]

I'm not too inclined to go read a game from scratch but your [Morning's] reads/interactions this game seem to have significantly more depth to them here than in the first scumgame of yours I found, Mini Normal 2132. Simultaneously it seems like Hectic wrongly townread you all game so I really can't say this sparks a new personal confidence in him.

[Morning Tweet]

Morning, it looks like you never really explained why you gained more confidence in the Elements vote as time went on. Can you discuss your progression on that slot a bit more?

230 is by far your best statement of a case on Elements. 279 you dial it back a bit and explain why. In 415 they take your second lowest slot, but the only statement in your notes seems to have them as +town. 563 you seem to be coming around to him as more null/town. You flip your vote to Tayl0r from Elements somewhere in the 400s, but never really explained it. You pull back after their readslist. In 916 Elements/beeboy are back on the bottom with no explanation, and you vote beeboy to make it X-2. 1023 agrees with beeboy on Tayl0r, but by 1037 you're back to voting beeboy and having them at the bottom of your list.

Can you explain more around your two votes+the unvote between of beeboy, why you felt better and better about fighting that slot over time, and what made them perennially at the bottom of the list for you?

As a sidenote, I'm also curious because you made a point for redtea town that is a big part of why I townread the slot in 563. What do you think of it now?

I recall reading stuff of tayl0rs that made me spontaneously throw her into my spare pile. Additionally I came around to Pooky somewhere along the line. So that left, what was it.. Lavender/beeboy/maybe Puppy in the pile?

And then I looked at that and thought "Well Puppy is town if beeboy is scum". I liked Puppy more than Elements/beeboy, so just like that, I was pretty much locked in if I wasn't going to switch to lavender. I decided against switching to Lavender cause that'd be boring and also somebody mentioned a reason she could be town for meta.

Beeboy's entrance didn't really do anything for me. I actually played a game (Treestump Express) where he got consensus townlocked after replacing into a hard-null slot in Xylo. Wasn't really feeling that this time (and I was reinforced by Chara/Hectic not feeling it either).

Really I was at the point where no one but Beeboy was my favourite scum, barring Lavender maybe. Very exciting, because usually I townread the entire game and get frustrated!

Ehm, let me address your points more specifically though. I voted Elements initially because of an interaction with Puppy I didn't like. I unvoted because of a certain post I thought "Eh maybe scum doesn't say that", allow me to find it

wow, I feel like my reads are completely the opposite to everyone elses

Yeah this one gave me pause I believe. I tend to associate scum with going with the flow, not being against it I guess? I do not think at any point was I elevating Element much on his reads. That saved him from my 417 vote but didn't do much else for him. He was hard stuck in null, I just found some of his stuff sort of surprising for scum I suppose. His replace-out certainly didn't help

So tldr I think the turning point where I went from "Where's the towny?" to "Yeah this is scum" is when I flipped on tayl0r to having her town yesterday. I probably just got generally more confident cause I had finally sat down and reaffirmed I believed in everything I had. That'd be in 1037. Felt nice

--

Mmmmm I did like that post by redtea. Lemme pull it up

Okay I'm proposing an alliance between me, Tanner, Morning Tweet, and redtea. Just need to find one more person there I'm comfy with.

okay catboi how did I get in here and not Prism. That isn't a thing that happens.
For real though, did you like, forget them?

I'll go ahead and make it clear here that my reads of that list is [town, neutral, town-lean]. Not trying to kick Tanner out or anything; for all Intents and Purposes I may as well consider him an ally, as I wouldn't fight him today and he doesn't seem to have the formidable-scary-maf reputation Chara does.

It's a good post. I like how they had reads of their own on everybody in our little town block thingy. And they are all confused why catboi would put them in the townblock over Prism.

Yeah I like this vibes this post gives off. Are they enough though?

[Morning Tweet]

I'm not too inclined to go read a game from scratch but your [Morning's] reads/interactions this game seem to have significantly more depth to them here than in the first scumgame of yours I found, Mini Normal 2132. Simultaneously it seems like Hectic wrongly townread you all game so I really can't say this sparks a new personal confidence in him.

That was a fun one! Kidding, sort of. I hated playing it the whole way through up until the end. What a stressful game that was.

To be fair he had no idea what my scum game was like at the time. That was my first scum game since 2016 after all. I have to actually play a scum game first before there can be differences

[Krazy]

I'm not too inclined to go read a game from scratch but your [Morning's] reads/interactions this game seem to have significantly more depth to them here than in the first scumgame of yours I found, Mini Normal 2132. Simultaneously it seems like Hectic wrongly townread you all game so I really can't say this sparks a new personal confidence in him.

That's really interesting. Do you think it's more likely Hectic is using his previous experiences to fake an overconfident read on MT rather than him maybe just being wrong again?

[Tayl0r Swift]

nah hectic and MT are both town

[Morning Tweet]

Thank u tayl0r

[Tayl0r Swift]

Thank u tayl0r

the lack of emojis is concerning in this post.

[Morning Tweet]

i wrote it quickly and my emoji browser tab wasn't open (;﹏;)

[Prism]

That's really interesting. Do you think it's more likely Hectic is using his previous experiences to fake an overconfident read on MT rather than him maybe just being wrong again?

I mean I think Hectic is scum period, Tayl0r scum or not. Maybe there would be some specific Chara flip that would change my mind but I hate his Day 1 so overwhelmingly, and it has become so glaringly obvious to me that trusting him merely for the Elements vote is a bad idea, that I have a hard idea believing I won't gladiate him tomorrow unless we just want to flip Lavender for the sake of it.

[Morning Tweet]

Is scum more likely to trust that Hectic is reading me genuinely, or would they instead try to discredit it? Well I know what my snap reaction is but I'll think on it more carefully

Pedit: Wait your bet is on Hectic over tayl0r? Hmmm I didn't realize that given the vote. I'll def reread him and your points on him

[Prism]

I am a bit skeptical of MT's progression on Ele and redtea, but I'm still inclined to slot them as town. They don't really get anything from buddying me/catboi early, and coming to Tayl0r's defense seems really strange from scum-MT here unless the team is exactly those two. I also agree with catboi that their analysis in their earlygame readwall was solid, and I do think MT's reaction about my criticism of Hectic was solid. Maybe MT is capitalizing on a wrong Hectic read here but ? iuno

[Krazy]

so your inclination is to fight lavendar, taylor? is she your top pick at this point?

[Prism]

Eh, that MT read I just gave is really lazy. It needs more careful tracking of how the overall game was at those points. Might be time to call it a night.

I wasn't even supposed to play today.

[Krazy]

Well it's good to have you around anyway Prism, I really appreciate your input :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Pooky, I'm curious as to some stances from you. You've been cautious about the Krazy wagon and seem to be conflicted-heart says yes, mind says no, here are some bad things about Taylor. Bits and pieces of your other reads might be found elsewhere but a collection/overview of where you're at with the game overall.

You haven't voted, so I'm wondering if that is all trying to figure out Krazy v. Taylor, or if there's some other reason you're waiting/other party you're looking at.

I liked redtea at beginning of the day - I've been susp of his slot from D1 - however the lack of resistance to the wagon felt off to me.

After I re-read catboi's ISO I think the NK would fit more with redtea being town than scum and taylor being scum so now I'm leaning the other way. I don't really see why redtea-scum shoots catboi when catboi is one of the few people who are town-reading him and then are more lock-town players in the game who pushed elements harder.

I have a massive amount of respect for MT/Hectic and their insistence that redtea is the clear and obv choice is making my conviction waver about what I think about redtea being scum.

[Krazy]

how much have you played with scum hectic and scum mt?

[Tayl0r Swift]

and why would i shoot catboi who i had been expressing a scumread of?