Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

I skimmed Noir last night by the way Pooky. I think it's pretty null overall but Tayl0r's reads were again better in that game than this one...though not by a lot. Lot of the same lines. Still my second vote.

[Prism]

So did Hectic just feel like bussing Elements then? Which would make him the Not Chara in any case

Hectic definitely isn't Chara, I think a bus is plausible and I hate his Day 1 but there are reasons to think he's town (At one point doubles down on Elements at easy turning point, reaction to me today was surprisingly unworried and off the cuff when pressing him/Tayl0r. Lavender defense was...not a good move as scum imo, but plausible)

[Tayl0r Swift]

HURT: Chara

interesting

[Prism]

I've been obsessed with associatives all game. I don't need to nail 2 and it's a waste of time to try to be omniscient. I only need one.

[Morning Tweet]

Correct. That's why Lav is a good pick because she can be scum with anyone

...at least, that's how I justify it

[Prism]

I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure she's scum with no one.

The 6 votes/declarations of willingness to vote are Morning, Taylor, Chara, Tanner, Puppy, and perhaps Krazy

The 3 who are strongly pushing somewhere else are me, Hectic, and Pooky.

I don't think any of those 3 are paired with Lavender.

[Krazy]

alright Noir finally ended so we can talk about taylor's ISO there

link here:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=1875

I haven't read it yet so I will be doing some cross-game analysis feel free to come up with your own conclusions about play comparison.

Given I have definitely been in games where someone grabs one recent game and then use it to meta-case me I'm a bit cautious here, but I guess it's worth asking a few questions

Just from the getgo, it seems that in that game you were more than happy to discuss the merits and values of a vig, whereas in this game you were very apathetic about mech talk in the early game

after that I glance at the approach to penguinbuddy:

Spoiler:

until i figure out where i want my vote, i'll just choochoo

VOTE: norway

so if penguin thinks someone is scummy thats good enough for you? why is PP town?

until i figure out where i want my vote, i'll just choochoo

VOTE: norway

so if penguin thinks someone is scummy thats good enough for you? why is PP town?

yes, this game is too filled with fluff and meta reads that i can only resort to wagons to get any sort of reaction from players.

where's bob btw, would love to hear his thoughts soon

but why this particular wagon? and why sheep PP?

so i guess ill just give some reads

town: lost, MWNN, ISIS

PoE: NM is topscum for not immediately hammering. thats NM's whole shtick.
bob looks bad for interactions with GG, and a general lack of solving.
bambi: the claim looks bad to me. Did anyone buy that claim? I doubt it. it seems like it was designed to sow confusion and win townpoints with a bold play that realistically just risked drawing a CC or wasting a track.
PP: i kinda wanna say town but theres not enough there. drunk penguin posted plenty but wasnt helpful in sorting.

and it looks like a lot of soft distancing

we can compare that to approach to ele/bee here:

Spoiler:

is elements normally this quiet as town?

hectic - probably town. stop being a goof though, and while i agree that deciding lavender is town rather than scum is passing on an opportunity for opportunism, it feels like a weak read
elements - beeboy hasnt really done anything to make me townread that slot (yet)
chara - am i the only one thinking chara might be scum here? chara let themself be talked into scumreading me pretty easily, and seems to float around the popular opinions a lot but never do much scumhunting
prism - prolly just town
pooky - definitely town
catboi - i still have misgivings
morning - those ears could never be scum
lavender - needs more content, in PoE
redtea - i dont remember any posts from this slot. i guess at some point i should read the iso but its not a good sign if they arent doing anything worth remembering. could just be the awolness that made me forget
tanner - prolly just town
puppy - hasnt really done much townie recently, but was a townread earlier

so that makes my PoE chara, lavender, redtea, puppy. out of those i want to HURT: chara

Taylor, do you still feel like Chara is scum? Me/Pooky both seem to agree that their posts on page 5 and their read on Elements in 160 are good.

I think some of their midgame wasn't very notable but when it comes to reads, the two they've really seemed to press are 1) Elements, who has now flipped scum 2) redtea, whose slot is now being replaced a second time after some very lackluster posts by Sujimichi

i mean sujimuchi is probably more likely to be scum. i have kinda weakened my scumread on chara. i do think theres prolly a deepwolf somewhere, but im thinking tanner is more likely scum than chara now.

im down for a beeboy wagon

Prism's read list had a set of takes that I think come from town.
His read on MT although consistent of him saying a bunch of MT traits and calling them scum indicative.
I also really liked that read in particular.

To some degree I want to town read MT for Hectic's "Top secret meta read", since good players tend to not say that without a real reason to do so.
But I also think I could probably read her on my own since I am fairly experienced playing with her, and she did perceive herself to be scum in one game even if she was town and could have thought it was multiball.

I originally wanted to question Hectic because I never heard of this tell before!!! But the 3 games that the 3 of us touched were 2 games modded by hectic and 1 modded by MT.
For the amount I've played with both Hectic and MT I am genuinely suprised this is the first time the 3 of us have played together. I don't want to count the dance game since it was an anon game.

i read beeboy's iso to decide whether it was a worthwhile wagon, but this is the only post with AI content (except the post advocating spares, which is scummy and was done twice in two different ways: spare at least one, and the spare route is good), and the AI content here is meh. dunno if its just because of catchup or what. beeboy needs more content but im not ready to lunch there yet.

There are some differences, the biggest maybe being 923 which is a more discernible bus

We can compare also to his approach to the Genius slot which was the earlier lynched scumbuddy

Spoiler:

Sure I can make a full case in the morning

ill decide whether to vote pending your case. atm i see genius as just quirky, and not very scumhunty. but thats kinda where this game is at atm... quirky and very not scumhunty.

genius i think you should probably ignore NM. i dunno how people normally sort NM, but i dont think normal tells and reasons really apply. i see what you're saying, but everyone else is just ignoring it, and they actually know NM. and murdercat, i think your case on genius is mostly a difference in understanding of the game rather than different alignments. im still gonna wait to evaluate genius until i see him push someone other than NM, which i hope will be soon. i will continue to award scumpoints to both of you as this tunnel continues though.

Let me make this joke thing really clear from my point of view.

If you want to joke, you should do it in a way that makes very clear the fact that you’re joking

. I still don’t think Bambi was joking. No, I don’t think you have to put large red text stating “this is a joke”. No, I don’t think you even have to put it in a spoiler. But Bambi’s post just didn’t look at all like a joke. It did not look at all like someone defending a joke they made. It instead looked like someone who slipped or did something scummy, and then became overly defensive in their backtracking, something that scum players are more likely to do.

i mean... disagree. part of the humor is the shock value or the uncertainty about whether a different perspective is genuine or just crazy. labeling things as jokes takes away from that.

and I see very little interesting interactions here at all

So it seems like Tayl0r's go-to approach here is to basically soft-distance buddies while playing nominally a bit wolfy, she doesn't vote either buddy in that game. So there's some minor differences but I can see this at least being in tayl0r's scumrange and I'm not seeing things here that would make her hard town, but I guess it's not immediately jumping out at me without more familiarity with Noir what Pooky is seeing as strongly scum-indicative. What is boosting your confidence in particular here Pook?

[Chara]

Elements 410 continues to bother me. I don't like its attitude around Hectic all game: Have an idea of how to read them, but has never really put that into motion. Timing of their vote on Hectic yesterday was extremely questionable, and I don't like their traversal around the lurker slots today.

i really wish you would read Jingle's Nightmares. for all of your talk of SIN and how important it was to your read of redtea, and your wish that others would understand what it is you're saying, i'd appreciate if you would take the time to look through Hectic and my ISOs in what is a relatively short game, especially if you stop at the point i died.

[Chara]

So did Hectic just feel like bussing Elements then? Which would make him the Not Chara in any case

Hectic definitely isn't Chara, I think a bus is plausible and I hate his Day 1 but there are reasons to think he's town (At one point doubles down on Elements at easy turning point, reaction to me today was surprisingly unworried and off the cuff when pressing him/Tayl0r. Lavender defense was...not a good move as scum imo, but plausible)

i agree Hectic's reaction was good.

[Chara]

Elements 410 continues to bother me. I don't like its attitude around Hectic all game: Have an idea of how to read them, but has never really put that into motion. Timing of their vote on Hectic yesterday was extremely questionable, and I don't like their traversal around the lurker slots today.

i really wish you would read Jingle's Nightmares. for all of your talk of SIN and how important it was to your read of redtea, and your wish that others would understand what it is you're saying, i'd appreciate if you would take the time to look through Hectic and my ISOs in what is a relatively short game, especially if you stop at the point i died.

this relates directly to my Hectic read this game, which is why i bring it up.

[Chara]

I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure she's scum with no one.

The 6 votes/declarations of willingness to vote are Morning, Taylor, Chara, Tanner, Puppy, and perhaps Krazy

The 3 who are strongly pushing somewhere else are me, Hectic, and Pooky.

I don't think any of those 3 are paired with Lavender.

i have to disagree. declaring a willingness to vote is not the same thing as throwing your weight there and you know this. i'm also unclear as to why you're comfortable dismissing Hectic/Lavender.

[Prism]

Feel free to delve into your Hectic read using the game yourself, you don't need to wait on me to do so and I've seen it inform zero.

For willingness to vote, test it if you want, but something tells me you will find the six votes quite quickly.

Hectic's defense and open coaching of Lavender Day 1 would be getting towncred in the event we flip Lab at some point, not scum protection services.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I skimmed Noir last night by the way Pooky. I think it's pretty null overall but Tayl0r's reads were again better in that game than this one...though not by a lot. Lot of the same lines. Still my second vote.


I skimmed Noir last night by the way Pooky. I think it's pretty null overall but Tayl0r's reads were again better in that game than this one...though not by a lot. Lot of the same lines. Still my second vote.

I think her tone in Noir is markedly different from her tone here suggesting she is town in this game.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So it seems like Tayl0r's go-to approach here is to basically soft-distance buddies while playing nominally a bit wolfy, she doesn't vote either buddy in that game. So there's some minor differences but I can see this at least being in tayl0r's scumrange and I'm not seeing things here that would make her hard town, but I guess it's not immediately jumping out at me without more familiarity with Noir what Pooky is seeing as strongly scum-indicative. What is boosting your confidence in particular here Pook?

It's not boosting my confidence - if anything it's kind of lowering my belief in Taylor!scum - the tonality feels completely different between the two games - she is a lot more confident and assertive in Noir while here she is just kind of waffling and feels somewhat directionless.

[Prism]

Like, apparently you've kept a careful eye on Hectic all game. You didn't really read my points up until that one sequence of quotes that immediately struck your soul. This mystical game of Your Nightmare has help guide you to your current read.

...And despite that close eye, careful consideration of meta, and generally paying more attention to him, you vanity vote him and ask "What if he's Chara?" when that was blatantly not the case

Things like the sincerity of his posts now that you reread him again seem extremely hollow and nonsensical.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

hear me out Prism

what if the team is

dun dun dun dun dun

Chara/Hectic?

[Chara]

i'm asking you to take a look and come up with your own conclusions. if you don't want to that's fine, it's a request not an order. but it'd be really nice, if you had the inclination.
i have put my ideas about reading Hectic into practice. if they'd been conclusive, i would have said so. my vote on Hectic yesterday was me thinking they

were

conclusive, after believing it wouldn't be useful here. that's why i got excited. it's literally just how he forms scumreads (objective and defensible vs. not) and how he responds to pressure. the former i'm seeing what reminds me of scum Hectic (and he's aware of the objectivity thing as scum, based on the PT of Nightmares), while his responses to pressure this game have been really good. my last experience with scum Hectic was someone who had much less confidence in what he was selling and more desire to avoid conflict. i'm seeing shades of both here. i don't think i ever said i had a surefire way of reading him, two games of meta is not nearly enough for something like that. but i know better what to look for, at least.

if you consider voting Lavender to be that, i am testing it.

i don't know what the problem is with how i've approached "the lurker slots" today. i'm open to vote any of them, but i picked my preference based on the one i think has the best shot of flipping mafia.

[Prism]

It's possible but I'm mostly through with trying to teamsolve right now as opposed to just nailing Chara for bad progressions on both Hectic+beeboy, and to a lesser extent me/catboi, and calling it a

P-Edit: will read in a sec

[Chara]

Like, apparently you've kept a careful eye on Hectic all game. You didn't really read my points up until that one sequence of quotes that immediately struck your soul. This mystical game of Your Nightmare has help guide you to your current read.

...And despite that close eye, careful consideration of meta, and generally paying more attention to him, you vanity vote him and ask "What if he's Chara?" when that was blatantly not the case

Things like the sincerity of his posts now that you reread him again seem extremely hollow and nonsensical.

i think you've really misunderstood the significance of Your Nightmare. it has guided me to very little, as it stands.
and i don't actually see why he couldn't be Chara. sure, in the case of Taylor and Hectic specifically, their interactions would indicate Hectic is the one who needed to go the distance (is my understanding) but Hectic when taken alone

could

be Chara. of course he could. Isis didn't take into account which player would be more or less comfortable as scum when assigning roles.

[Prism]

I also want to respond to your Noir analysis when I get to a computer-I remember thinking she was noticeably a bit lost in both games, but more willing to defend a partner in Noir. I'm pretty confused by her being a lot more open in general in both games, and even though in Noir her reads had more depth they still didn't reach the Newbie iirc

[Chara]

It's possible but I'm mostly through with trying to teamsolve right now as opposed to just nailing Chara for bad progressions on both Hectic+beeboy, and to a lesser extent me/catboi, and calling it a

P-Edit: will read in a sec

bad progressions on beeboy???

[Prism]

Hectic straight trolled his team by powerbussing a regular mafia as Chara. Like, that strategy is so uniquely bad that I would love for Hectic to flip Chara overnight.

Chara doesn't powerbus because they only get a single day to use the towncred, and just halved their team's chance of winning to get it

[Prism]

Yes bad progression on beeboy. You literally contentprod voted him, openly gave the slot a reset for the replacement, and then said it wasn't content-based after the fact with zero justification

[Chara]

ok, sure, i get it. about Hectic.

not understanding or remembering that in the heat of the moment, though. that's something you consider evidence of me being scum?

[Chara]

Yes bad progression on beeboy. You literally contentprod voted him, openly gave the slot a reset for the replacement, and then said it wasn't content-based after the fact with zero justification

i didn't reset on the slot because of a replacement, i took both occupants into account. i don't know what you mean by the last sentence.