Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Krazy]

I do like you

Why do you think those games are bad meta for you?

[Krazy]

How many people just really want this day to end? I still feel like I just replaced in so I'm like not in a rush at all but I do appreciate that long days can be really demoralizing

[Tanner]

I do like you

Why do you think those games are bad meta for you?

(1) they're hydra games (so i'm obviously playing differently than i would solo)
(2) they're large themes (anything over 14 players and i am completely lost)
(3) for those games specifically

for flying scumsman i was told the game wouldn't be an "actual mafia game", but would instead be just shitposting, having fun, and doing those challenges. that was a goddamn lie. for the first day i barely read anything game-related and just let my hydra partner do the heavy lifting (sorry...), and when i started actually reading bits of it later i still didn't really care about that game

for post-apoc, my reads (or what i had of them) were flipping wrong and i just completely lost motivation d2+ and basically just prodged? like i think that is literally the only game of mine where you'll find me saying "i don't know, i have no reads, just kill me"

though my question still stands, i do feel like i'm being more lurky/reactive this game than town!me usually is, and you described my usual townplay as that iirc, so uhh... what gives?

How many people just really want this day to end? I still feel like I just replaced in so I'm like not in a rush at all but I do appreciate that long days can be really demoralizing

it's not that it's long, it's just... i dunno. we have an empty slot, and the lack of any serious counters to the scumflip yesterday have left us in a very weird state

and i still feel like we're exactly at the same spot we were at the beginning of the day, i.e. we're going to flip one of taylor/lavender/krazy

[Krazy]

though my question still stands, i do feel like i'm being more lurky/reactive this game than town!me usually is, and you described my usual townplay as that iirc, so uhh... what gives?

When I replaced in, you were talking about the necessity of lynching "lower" slots, dropping lists, and pushing dog, a read you seem to have kinda almost entirely lost interest in?

Like coming in on 57/58, that would not give me the impression of a lurky reactive player, my first impression of those pages was that you were one of the more active players. You have dropped off in the last thirty pages or so but you haven't given any sort of sense of apathy in the same ballpark as post-apoc for sure.

Since then you keep listing me in the bottom three pool but at this point I honestly can't remember why you even put me there

and I do remember you being capable of having stronger reads, I'm just trying to remember the games you were in that gave me that impression and I'd have to look back at our shared games

but yeah, maybe your self-conception of your play this game is thrown of by my impression based more on where I entered the game and what I read when I entered. But every time you have posted I've kinda been like, "huh yeah tanner seems like scum" -- like even right now your questions seem kinda scummy lol. Maybe the reason I wasn't updating my meta discussion of my read on you was because I wanted to see how you engaged with the evolving conversation and real time interaction is generally better than meta anyway?

[Krazy]

I actually feel pretty good about this

who has been blocking this? I think I'm ready to fite someone to fight Tanner

I will bring with me the power of meeeeemes!

[CantHateAPuppy]

just checking in. i see big black-and-white picture i talk to big black-and-white picture

i would not be in favor of a tanner fight. is this a slot that needs resolving? i still think the reasons i have for putting him as town are decent and if he were scum he could have spent a lot more time picking fights with obvtown slots b/c that would only boomerang back on him on future days

thought id have more to say on more topics but as i write this i think everything ive said until now basically stands. maybe it is time to just end the day?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I can actually see a tanner fight

Datisi is not his usual paranoid self >.>

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

tho I guess this could be due to the alt persona

but how much can a person really change their behavior?

[Krazy]

doggo remind me of your town tanner reasons again plz

[CantHateAPuppy]

There does seem to be some push on me, some of which is clearly coming from town, but of the slots pushing my lynch right now yours looks a bit scummier than Hectic's. I'll think on it more on the morrow

so uhh what was the deal with 1494?

response to prism's 1571:
~ i'm not arguing puppy's 100% scum. i would be pushing him with much more power if i thought so.
~ i want to argue "considering the way day one went, what the hell *was* scum doing?" is why i'm paranoid and kinda annoyed, but i guess the question here is "is it plausible for town to assume no bussing", which. i dunno. i guess.
~ 1225 made me uneasy because it seemed like a weaker townlean than the day earlier, and that last part made me think he was going to ~stop~ townleaning me in the future? that's what i meant by aligning, or like preparing himself to be able to walk back in the future, because scum still needs misfights and i'm assuming they're planning for me to be one of them.

having typed this out, i feel guilty of "ascribing scum motivations to posts rather than looking for it", so yeah. i dunno what to tell you. if puppy's not scum, then from my pov it's either some combination of lavender/krazy/taylor or something's very wrong. i don't know if there's a combination of those that outirght works. and that worries me.

i still got like 2 pages to read, but in the meantime
@hectic, how sure are you of morning-tweet!town today? and could you give me a shotgun readslist?

This is scummy

let's say we lynch you anyways and you flip town

who else wyould you fight besides tanner? who would you spare / who's your top townread?

found this while searching my iso

[CantHateAPuppy]

so I'll HURT: tanner and ask if anyone has a good reason to townread either swift or tanner?

i townread tanner because he is pushing stubbornly up in situations that would be easier for town to shirk back from. he's still trying to push a case on me (?) when i'm obvtown (iso my votes on the elements scum wagon from yesterday). is that a "good reason" for you?

[Tanner]

words cannot describe how much i don't feel like playing this game right now but i have this sinking feeling if i don't reply people are gonna cry "datisi is online but isn't responding hurr durr ellitell hurr durr scum!!!" so here we go i guess

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

lol just come back and play when u feel like playing

i will protects you

[Tanner]

though my question still stands, i do feel like i'm being more lurky/reactive this game than town!me usually is, and you described my usual townplay as that iirc, so uhh... what gives?

When I replaced in, you were talking about the necessity of lynching "lower" slots, dropping lists, and pushing dog, a read you seem to have kinda almost entirely lost interest in?

Like coming in on 57/58, that would not give me the impression of a lurky reactive player, my first impression of those pages was that you were one of the more active players. You have dropped off in the last thirty pages or so but you haven't given any sort of sense of apathy in the same ballpark as post-apoc for sure.

Since then you keep listing me in the bottom three pool but at this point I honestly can't remember why you even put me there

and I do remember you being capable of having stronger reads, I'm just trying to remember the games you were in that gave me that impression and I'd have to look back at our shared games

but yeah, maybe your self-conception of your play this game is thrown of by my impression based more on where I entered the game and what I read when I entered. But every time you have posted I've kinda been like, "huh yeah tanner seems like scum" -- like even right now your questions seem kinda scummy lol. Maybe the reason I wasn't updating my meta discussion of my read on you was because I wanted to see how you engaged with the evolving conversation and real time interaction is generally better than meta anyway?

yeah i've pretty much lost interest in the puppy read for the time being. i feel like it's my paranoia speaking, and if he's not a viable execution today anyway, there is literally no point in bashing my head against the wall about it today

i've said why you were in the lower slots. somewhat bad associates, weirdly timed drop-out, scum-indicative replacement. you'll notice i'm not voting you, though. the fact you're in my "lower" slots is because i'm being objective about "what execution is possible today", not "what do *i* want". i don't know what i want, i've said that so many times. this game is confusing, i was wrong on day one, i might be going wrong again.

though the longer this goes on (and i'm somewhat certain you're not chara) the more i have the urge to just give in and start pushing for your fight. either you're scum trying to set basis for my execution the next day, or you're town and wrong and tunnelled. because frankly it's getting annoying to read "oh everything tanner posts is kinda scum". i'll decide later. i need to go now anyway.

[Krazy]

i townread tanner because he is pushing stubbornly up in situations that would be easier for town to shirk back from. he's still trying to push a case on me (?) when i'm obvtown (iso my votes on the elements scum wagon from yesterday). is that a "good reason" for you?

I seem to recall responding to those points and already explained why I don't find them compelling

[Morning Tweet]

- @morningtweet please respond to the bottom of my 2041

Somebody asked me about how I said for Lavender we don't learn anything from flipping her if she's town -- yeah, but... we get a Chara flip anyway if Lav is town. Guess it makes me not sweat it as much. Going to have to kill Lav at some point no?

basically I'm in purge mode.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hi i have some helpful self-meta:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=84280

this is now over. i was town and disengaged at first but then as the game went on i got more and more engaged and contributed at the end. see if you cant draw a tight parallel between my play there and here.

[Tayl0r Swift]

1977 - how is taylor not evil here????

what are your current thoughts/reads? who do you think we should eliminate today?

lavender or tanner. prism would be spicy but im not sure if im just tinfoil hatting or seeing things clearly

where did chara go? why are you now considering lavender? why am i scum other than ~*gut*~?

tanner doesnt feel like datisi. it could be the alt, datisi said as much. but theres definitely something off. theres none of the energy or solving you see from datisi

...? ??? ? ?? ?
you said you're not an alt, right? have you been reading my games or something? because i'm pretty sure we have literally never played together?

now i'm scum with lavender
you cannot be serious

Her partner could be a lot of ppl, but didnt Tanner try to swap the wagon off Elements to Lavender D1? Am I misremembering? I swear someone wanted us to swap to Lav but idk who.

it was me and catboi.

pedit: sure, lemme dig it up real quick.

im not an alt, i looked up a couple of your games. im not doing associatives. i just think youre currently the most likely to be scum, and lavender prolly too. chara is tinfoilhat deepwolf. but probably town at this point. i think its just paranoia thats making me suspect chara and prism, theyre like... just town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

can you make a case for Tanner being scum?

I will go over his ISO tonight.

[Krazy]

i don't think i have anything specific i want you to look at because the game is kinda weird right now, in a sense that i don't think we can procceed in a huge manner without flipping a "lower" slot first and seeing whether that gives us victory or a deepwolf not-chara flips and we need to start over. again, would be lovely to big brain snipe the deepwolf today if they exist, but i'm kinda thinking that's unrealistic.

One of my concerns with tanner involves the push to "lower slots" which which admittedly does relatively match how a lot of the game is viewing the gamestate and the current lavendar push which reflects that a lot of town have similar feelings to this, but it bugs me when I see a list like this:

i'm kinda shoving all of hectic/prism/morning tweet/chara/pooky as "this is most likely town, and even if it's not we're not flipping them today unless something mindblowing happens, so moving on" (yeah, i get it's funny saying that while watching the prism-chara thing brewing, but hey)

which leaves
suji - at the start of day two i pointed out that some of their connections with elements aren't... great, and i've talked about my read progression on redtea at the bottom of 1349. i have never played with suji, but from what i've seen of their play around the site, they're usually not that invested as scum and they often flake? and this game is kinda similar to their scumplay? the issue of "who are they partnered with?" is the only thing bothering me.

lavender - do we need another chapter of tanner ranting about lavender? i kinda wish they were at least, i dunno, trying to interact with me. actually kinda wanna hear what hectic thinks of this slot now. @hectic pls help.

puppy - we also don't need another chapter of this. also i kinda wanna talk to them on the things i brought up recently. will give an update at some point maybe.

taylor - i don't know. they're like. meh. i pretty much don't remember anything they've done.

Aside from puppy, the scum pool here all feel like they're coming from the position of "lynchbait" rather than scum, and I've felt like Tanner has been more interested in maintaining the "lynchbait" pool than in solving. I also feel like he didn't really engage with the rebuttals to my slot being scum presented by Prism and Pooky but still keeps pushing me into the lower pool anyway which is something that reminds me of how someone like Elsa Jay responded to my rep in in the shakespeare boon game

On the connections, a big part of his argument is:

them pretty much disappearing the last 3-4 days of day one, where the weird lack of resistance of the scumwagon could be explained by an afk buddy

and this just feels like a weird and kinda scummy thought process. I generally find "resistance" based arguments about wagons to be highly suspect. If scum bussed, they probably wanted towncred. If scum didn't bus, yeah redtea could be scum, but I just didn't like this thought process or the formulation of this evidence. Like saying "I think scum would be reacting this way to this wagon" is just very often wrong and I more often see scum faking speculation about resistance than town actually using it, but maybe that's just my subjective take

Selective evidence gathering also bothers me in 938 since "scum killed this person for this post" is something scum is very likely to argue to screw with NKA. I feel like I've written posts exactly like 938 as scum, particularly in Titus v. Alisae most recently, and seeing posts I feel like I would write as scum from Tanner bother me

Other people have also formulated reasons why Tanner just seems out of sync even though they don't really conclude he's scum off it:

I really am struggling to see 1084-1092 scum in the same way you are. Sparing isn't happening, scumPuppy knows it, it's only going to draw attention, and the chance of them personally getting spared even if successful is zero. That doesn't mean they're town for it, but it is plausible as town, so the scumread is really tenuous here to me...The piece Puppy seems to be missing is that 2 correct spares isn't much better for us than 2 misfights, if it even is at all (I again don't want to do math). Without that, their reasoning lines up.

The person they immediately push to spare in 1298 is Chara for the push on Elements. This stuck out to me because I think Hectic was much more of a driving force there-Chara opened it with a vote for scumpings but Hectic really carried that through as I continued to press him to justify it-but is consistent with their 1090, where they don't seem to remember Hectic shoving. Maybe they're being willfully blind as scum, but this process seems really plausible to me.

From Puppy's perspective, this seems to be the case: Sparing might be slightly worse mathematically, but bussing Day 1 is so stupid that no one would do it. We've got such a good chance of getting two good spares that we should take it. I remember Chara as the person who really pushed that vote, so that's my first spare vote for sure.

You (Tanner) challenge the assumption that no one would bus Day 1, but I really see why someone would assume that. Even I, who has bussed their way to mathematically suboptimal extremes, am tempted to believe the same.

I feel like I agree with Prism on basically everything here, and from this I more wonder why Tanner doesn't end up lower in Prism's list since the weird assumptions Tanner is making (scum don't bus day 1?) to me seem scummy

Tanner also complains that in posts like 1644 I remark that he's saying scummy stuff but he doesn't really engage me on it so let me expand:

so uhh what was the deal with 1494?

this bothers me because it feels like testing the water on my Hectic townread without really pushing back on it directly. like if tanner is scum then me townblocking with Hectic would probably be game-losing if we are t/t so this reads like a panicked scum reaction

f puppy's not scum, then from my pov it's either some combination of lavender/krazy/taylor or something's very wrong

this just feels like a scummy rule of 3 list and since I'm in it that would point to TLav or TanTaylor; he continues more in this pool as the day goes on without really doing anything that would spew lavender or taylor in particular imo. The way he's treating his pool right now feels very cautious

In slightly more recent posts:

your meta on me is just... post-apoc and flying scumsman, right? those two are probably the worst games to meta me from

I admit that my comments about his alignment earlier did play into a baseline intuitive sense that "datisi feels diff this game" but I feel like arguing about my ability to meta-evaluate him is scummy regardless of whether my meta read is actually good or not. I feel like I've made this argument often as scum, where I argue someone can't meta-read me particularly if I feel like they *shouldn't* have been able to meta read me or the meta read is garbage but 'right for the wrong reasons'. I think the reason I see this as more scummy is because as town I would have more confidence people will just *find town in me* because it's there whereas as scum I would feel a bigger need to pushback on the kinda weak gut-take meta evaluation

either you're scum trying to set basis for my execution the next day, or you're town and wrong and tunnelled.

I also felt like this was kinda out of left field. I do not feel at *all* tunneled on Tanner. I did park my vote on him but he's been under almost no other pressure and there's been a lot more "why don't you hammer lavendar" than anything else. Like I can't just always move my vote when moving my vote to the next most logical spot risks a chara quickhammer if we're wrong. This feels a lot more like a justification to keep me in his pool rather than a towny reaction

I do think that Tanner is the slot I can actually see scum in much more so than Lavender who I feel more just 'fits every team because she hasn't really done anything'

[Krazy]

To be clear I love datisi and I absolutely do not want to demoralize him out of this game in a world where he's town, but I also feel like it was time my concerns with that slot were a lot clearer since I do think he's the better fight over lavender right now, and I think my feelings on that are going to stay the same regardless of his ~quick break~ from the game

[Tayl0r Swift]

isnt not liking the game scum indicative for datisi? that might be an unfair argument, but if its true its true.

[Lavender]

Ahhhhhh I forgot again again, I'm back QWQ

lavendar is like this in every game ive ever played with her. if you want her opinion on something just ask.

@lavendar: question time!

1st obvious question is top scumread / who would u vote right now / is there a reason u aren't voting rn?

2nd, do u have an opinion on the common observation that this game seems like a strong town? if u are town then u kind of have a lot of competition to be townread against, so an impassioned "omg i am so town town town" rant could do u some good here?

3rd, who have u faced here before who u think u might have some special insight on?

1:
Maybe Tayl0r, mainly because they have the least reasoning on their push on me and seem like they just want to avoid being lynched haaa.
Why I'm not voting, I'm not confident in my reads and such. Really the most I vote is when I'm asked to or in RVS. (o.o;)

2:
Yes I am 100% town with all my might, dear lord Prism do not die.
Anyways, I find it quite interesting, and funny. ovo

3:
I've only faced Hectic I think, but I don't really have special insight on them.
I've said what I thought about their posts as Marksman and Hectic, that's basically all I think.

Did I miss any other questions directed at me ah?


PE: |.o)

[Krazy]

Lavender chan could you give us a full list as best you can? Have any of your reads changed this dayphase?

/

Unrelated but since it came up, here's the link for the apocalypse upick game https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go that we were discussing whether it was good/bad as a meta checkpoint for tanner/dats

[CantHateAPuppy]

TBH i don't want to fight lavender right now. i might be talked into this depending on what prism / chara want, but at the moment im not ready. call it gut feeling