Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

if you want me to make it worse for you i realized he'd die right after i townread him

the good news is you have insurance in the sense that if i'm scum 1. why the hell would i do this to myself as chara 2. i have to somehow justify being alive+not cleared by cop investigation in the 50/50 as regular mafia

[Prism]

to be clear, as great as this game is, 2 is not an invitation to troll me by refusing to nightkill me, thank you for your consideration

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why did you choose to hammer beeboy instead of seeing if Tanner would actually do the hammer?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

HURT: beeboy

see ya nerds

xoxo love chara

ngl this would be one of the best hammers of all time if you were actually The Chara.

[Tanner]

Spoiler:

I request Datisi/Tanner do one of these for this game. It is an invaluable scumhunting tool.

it is so ironic you say this while quoting the one triangle i ever made where all scum were in the "town" portion

anyway here is triangle

i will now reply what i need to reply to

if there's any questions, shoot

(also in the meantime, how do i go from "i don't see scum in this" to "regular wolf" for you, pooky?)



also prism if you're scum, there's gonna be tears post-game, just saying

[Prism]

why did you choose to hammer beeboy instead of seeing if Tanner would actually do the hammer?

I had actually been waiting to trollhammer all day, I didn't even think about Tanner doing it tbh

[Prism]

idk about all day actually but at some point I got it in my brain and I was READY

was super sad it didn't work on cat+Isis locked the thread pretty fast

[Prism]

In the meantime I just finished 100%ing Super Mario Sunshine in like, 3 days. One more game that I never finished in my childhood down

if only this one were so easy

[Tanner]

you gave

me

a panic attack with that hammer, if it makes you feel any better

[Tanner]

I don't have any big points. It's just that I've played a really traumatic game with TownTisi and he was so blatantly obviously town like it was as obvious as the sun in the sky.

here there is just darkness

fun fact, i've heard this before.

i had a game where i was blatantly obviously town similar to [game that shall not be named], autumnal mafia. and the people that played in that game used the "datisi was so towny in that game, he's not here, is he scum???". and guess what, i was town every single time that happened:

Datisi hasn’t struck me as particularly Town yet, which I expect from them early on.

Comparing to the last game [autumnal mafia] we played?

Yes, you were very obviously Town that game from early on. Not sure if it was just that game? I’ll have a look back.

I don't actually have a solid scumread on Datisi. It's some mixture of an lolsolve/paranoia/gut. I don't know how to articulate it. I guess it's also notable that Datisi was obvtown in Autumnal but isn't here, but that's not solid either.

I feel like I'm not remotely interested in voting Datisi but Autumnal he was absurd to the point I would bodyguard him after I got public copped so it doesn't seem good relatively.

[Tanner]

i dislike not having a vote on someone, but i'm not feeling this as strongly anymore, and it is anyway probably not happening HURT: isis

So this is your unvote on Puppy. I've got a pretty good idea of the events, but can you run down more explicitly why your read weakened? You were getting a lot of pushback, but I'm curious as to what was going on internally that made

your

perspective weaken.

some games the townspewing machine is simply broke and i get executed and then people go "wait how did that flip town??"

Can you link one/two games like this?

it started as "well everyone is telling me puppy is towny, and if i look past the sparing fiasco, i do see what they're talking about." then i kinda realized that scum is in a (probably) not good position here, and scum!puppy would have to like, start setting things up for the future days? because in our last game, he was similarly in a not very good position, and i caught on to the misexecutes he was setting up (that i then got killed over and nobody listened to me and they executed my townread in lylo but i'm not saly i'm not salty at all) and here he's just... not doing that?

also i'd be lying if i said there's not a trace of "well, even if i *am* right on him beng scum, this isn't happening today, and i'm not getting killed, so either

he

gets killed and i'm obviously proven wrong, or we're here tomorrow and i can start worrying about the scum!puppy world again".

as for games like that... jk9++ and newbie 1992 are the two most recent games where i got misexecuted. though i feel like i've played decently different in both of them than in here and i kinda fear this meta-dive will make you turn on me but /shrug

[Tanner]

I think this progression: "Day 1 wagon was sketchy, two conf town on counter -> Had to be a bus, right? -> Someone's a deepwolf, how are they going to capitalize on it? -> Spares, and Puppy is pushing spares -> Puppy scum?" much more plausible/natural than something that works in kind of the opposite direction "Puppy pushing for spares -> Scum? -> Makes sense if he bussed"

i almost said "THANK YOU" outloud when i read this, then one part of my brain said this is chara tying me to themselves for tomorrow, then i beat that part of my brain with a stick

First, Tanner:

There is one problem to me with your entire paranoia progression. You seem to have skimmed the ISOs of people off-wagon, and found redtea iffy. You've always been down to fight Lavender. At one point, you say this:

either (1) scum is actually all in the lower-influence "weaker" players and we have this game on lock, or (2) some mighty bus was happening yesterday... (2) scares me.

This is interesting to me, because you've kind of investigated only

parts

of either here. What I mean by this is you haven't investigated the possibility of deepscum too much despite being worried about it. Why are you not more worried about me, Chara, and Morning Tweet for example? How much ISO reviewing have you done of the stronger town slots?**

Second,

I'm a bit confused as to some of your more recent progressions in that it seems like you've gone into paranoid OMGUS mode repeatedly against slots that you're worried are pushing you. One of these that sticks out to me is your progression on redtea/Krazy seems to go haywire after Krazy replaces in and starts pushing you-you've backed off of the vote but haven't really indicated a change in his status, either. You give the reason to swap to Tayl0r based off of her questionable vote/push on you, but I'm really curious as to how you've been thinking about Krazy since his replace-in. I'm also curious for some updated thoughts on Lavender given your current stance on Tayl0r.

Third,

who do you have as more solid reads right now and why?

Spoiler: **Good progression I remembered too late footnote

This reminded me of the other important progression that stuck out to me+fits completely into Tanner's POV: How he worried about how legitimate/good faith Hectic's push on him was all throughout the 1100s/1200s, but especially in 1216. Again, deepwolf fears combined with Tanner's paranoia of getting pushed as a misfight make this pretty believable. I feel like I had more substantial comments here 6/7 hours ago but alas. Will probably get another chance to read them very soon.

first,

my thoughts when the game is going *really well* (i.e., got a scumflip on day one in a setup where scum should really make sure that doesn't happen) is that we're either townstomping this game or we're not. the plan is then to assume the former but keep the latter in mind. which means flip the "lower" slot or two, if they're scum, great (and in this case we win, yay), if they're not, something has gone

very

wrong.

i've done nothing to review the stronger town slots, because i'm currently under the assumption that this game is going well and that everything is fine. if i get proven wrong, that's the time when i need to start reflecting. also because i know "stronger" town slots aren't getting flipped anyway and i don't have the willpower to review slots that aren't getting flipped today anyway and the game might be over soon too.

i did this in both the recent run of pyp and why gun?? if you're interested

second,

i understand that i'm among the lower slots and one of the slots scum will have to push through if they want to win. i'm trying to keep an eye out on who that might be. and krazy replacing then pushing me gave me a vibe of "scum in a not good position entering the game, attacking a low-but-not-lhf slot, trying to seem productive."

i... don't really know what i think about krazy? i have a feeling he should be able to read me here, and i know if he's scum, he can't afford to townread me. but also i'm aware that historically, attacking people for not being able to read me usually ended in a disaster. and i get the points against him being scum, but in a vacuum i don't know if i can blindly sheep that.

thoughts on lavender are... N/A. at this point i' m just hoping we manage to sort that slot via associates or get it resolved at some point. i'd be lying if i said i didn't feel uneasy about how easy she picked up votes, though.

third,

look at triangle. you/chara are the townreads i'm not gonna be even thinking about until absolutely necessary. morning is town* except paranoia. pooky/puppy are town* except i can see a world where they're scum but that is a day-4!tanner problem.

hectic is more and more fitting the "scum that needs to keep me as a viable vote", but i don't think i can commit to that read with how day one played out.

in short, my reads right now are crap. i don't know.

[Tanner]

Σ(-᷅_-᷄๑) trying to figure out who would actually make sense as being teamed with the elements slot and it's, like...lavender, taylor, redtea, or

I guess

Prism and that's it. Hrm.

is this post why catboi died >.>

selective evidence, scum

[Hectic]

There's no reason for me to push you

today

as scum, Tanner. You're just my biggest lead for today (non Charas) and I don't even scumlean you, it's sad state of affairs. I guess I can represent that by HURT: No One for now.

[Hectic]

I had a good theory about Launchy/Ele being SvS early on, maybe I should look back into that and reread day 1.
There's too much town essence in this game.

[Tanner]

i did this in both the recent run of pyp and why gun?? if you're interested

forgot to go back and link this.

in fact, this post

Spoiler:

the only thing that's genuinely bugging me at this point (since i'm gonna pretend i trust hectic's read there for the time being) is why *didn't* scum try to get lhf!town!lavender? especially since if Not Chara were to hardpush her through, they could do so without consequence. like, from my pov, the only two people to ever actually vote there were two town. was hectic really that convincing with that read?

i don't have a satisfying answer to this. i am instead quoting this post for further study postgame once all alignments are known, because i think it's interesting and maybe, finally, i could learn something about mafia theory.

i'm pointing it out because i did correctly call scum out like that once - a lurker-lhf slot that i was calling out day one, but nobody listened to me except 1-2 very towny players. we ended up kinda deadline-consolidating on executing a different scum. on day two, i pushed the lurker-lhf slot through because "if we were on-course to execute scum on day one, why didn't scum bother to jump on this lhf!townie and make me look bad tomorrow?" got a scumflip on day two as well.

the only difference i think is that... well, there wasn't a hectic in that game who was defending them. which is what's giving me pause, since scum could've been afraid of him. which is why i'm still debating with myself about actually pushing lavender through, especially since i'd be signing my own death warrant if they flipped green, and i don't fancy us getting two green flips for the price of one, because of my own reads no less.

was about the why-gun game, with the very similar scenario day one - around mid-day, a prelevant wagon on scum!norwee that ended up getting pushed through, with one of the first counterwagons being on porkens (a slot that was pretty similar to lavender, basically doing nothing) with the only people joining being townie slots, then that wagon fell apart, the scum!norwee wagon went though, with nobody even trying to touch the porkens wagon anymore.

i made a similar argument at the start of day 2, either we're stomping the game or something is very wrong (because why was a counterwagon to scum only touched by very townie slots?), and for that we need to flip porkens. we flipped him, he was also scum.

as said however, the differences are that (1) the pork counterwagon to norwee was around mid-day, not last moment as it was here, and (2) there was no hectic in that game screaming about how that is pork's town meta. i'm... not exactly sure what the point of me typing this out is, when i don't know myself if i want to vote lavender anymore, but... whatever.

[Tanner]

There's no reason for me to push you

today

as scum, Tanner. You're just my biggest lead for today (non Charas) and I don't even scumlean you, it's sad state of affairs. I guess I can represent that by HURT: No One for now.

sure, but scum has to survive 4 misexecutes, not just one. and i think i'm almost guaranteed to have to be one of them, considering day one. that's why i'm trying to see if i can figure out who is trying to shitpush me. i think i heard our good friend bangle say once, if you're town, and the consensus is that you're scummy, you're in a unique position to solve because you know the consensus is *wrong*.

[Hectic]

This might look weird since I was just voting for yog, but sorting out my thoughts, I think I have Pooky, Lavender, Launchy, Krazy all below you now. I've liked your posts in the last couple of days.

Pooky has soulpocketed me though so I doubt I'll be voting for him any time soon &_&
Lavender has looked town but is here because there's less content than others which have looked town for a consistently longer amount of posts.
Launchy is here because day 1 stuff and pending.
Krazy is here for prior stated reasons on redtea/Sujimichi, but is dumb to push today.

[CantHateAPuppy]

all right, ive been kind of coasting because i thought everything we'd had to discuss had been hashed out already and we were getting ready to hammer someone and then could come back tomorrow after two flips

since it doesnto look like that's the case i'll have to force myself to say a little more. i'll come around later and serve up some updated hot takes. tea and coffee also served

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you gave

me

a panic attack with that hammer, if it makes you feel any better

why though?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

(also in the meantime, how do i go from "i don't see scum in this" to "regular wolf" for you, pooky?)

I re-read your posts in the 30 hours prior to Beeboy getting elim'd and it felt a bit like waffling scum. I'm not sure how comfortable Datisi-Scum feels about bussing even in a slam-dunk bus-case like Beeboy.

[CantHateAPuppy]

this is actually a really good readlist tbh, i think im just going to copy this as my readslist (including the part where i'm in the center and tanner is on the far left, that's right what are you going to say about it? nothing i bet)

[Chara]

I don't have any big points. It's just that I've played a really traumatic game with TownTisi and he was so blatantly obviously town like it was as obvious as the sun in the sky.

here there is just darkness

fun fact, i've heard this before.

i had a game where i was blatantly obviously town similar to [game that shall not be named], autumnal mafia. and the people that played in that game used the "datisi was so towny in that game, he's not here, is he scum???". and guess what, i was town every single time that happened:

Datisi hasn’t struck me as particularly Town yet, which I expect from them early on.

Comparing to the last game [autumnal mafia] we played?

Yes, you were very obviously Town that game from early on. Not sure if it was just that game? I’ll have a look back.

I don't actually have a solid scumread on Datisi. It's some mixture of an lolsolve/paranoia/gut. I don't know how to articulate it. I guess it's also notable that Datisi was obvtown in Autumnal but isn't here, but that's not solid either.

I feel like I'm not remotely interested in voting Datisi but Autumnal he was absurd to the point I would bodyguard him after I got public copped so it doesn't seem good relatively.

i get it, Tanner. i used to get this shit a lot before my hiatus.

[Prism]

first,

my thoughts when the game is going *really well* (i.e., got a scumflip on day one in a setup where scum should really make sure that doesn't happen) is that we're either townstomping this game or we're not. the plan is then to assume the former but keep the latter in mind. which means flip the "lower" slot or two, if they're scum, great (and in this case we win, yay), if they're not, something has gone

very

wrong.

i've done nothing to review the stronger town slots, because i'm currently under the assumption that this game is going well and that everything is fine. if i get proven wrong, that's the time when i need to start reflecting. also because i know "stronger" town slots aren't getting flipped anyway and i don't have the willpower to review slots that aren't getting flipped today anyway and the game might be over soon too.

I did a really poor job phrasing this question. I think where I'm getting a bit confused here is that in the early Day 2 you

were

a lot more worried about deepscum, you were a lot more skeptical of Puppy esp. after he pushed the spare, and you came into Day 2 at least very cautious about them being on-wagon even if you chose to look off for your ISO skims.

So what I'm finding strange here is that it looks like you were worried about deepwolf, saw signs of Puppy deepwolf, and investigated Puppy, but

didn't

really investigate anybody else. I think following your first lead and not really expanding it to others is fine, but I'm wondering how/why you chose not to question your read on others if the mindset I'm ascribing to you is accurate.

I don't really have much interest in meta diving you, way too much experience/have the fundamentals of the game down, meaning it's not at all likely to be simple. Was really just wanting to see that you could back up your claim that these scenarios-Datisi is normally so town-have happened before. Ald looks fine, pops was mafia but presumably still found it plausible, Luca said that on page 3 (??? lmao) but I guess you had talked a lot already. Either way I'm glad to see there is precedent.

[Prism]

ie. like, the Puppy push in general+fear of the deepwolf spare suggests to me that you weren't in that "This game is going great/this is fine" mindset