Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Morning Tweet]

you all might not know me well enough to know this, but the quotes morning picked out are me towntelling

elaborate

i mean its not a logical thing, i cant prove it. im also decently good at faking those things as scum. but i know myself and thats me towntelling. and i think hectic might know it too. i think hectic has been in all my games onsite and has a pretty good feel for me. except hes usually very paranoid about me being scum.

Well like, what

are

you doing in these posts that you can identify as a towntell?

You don't have to explain why it's townie for you, just like, what are you doing? It's a one line question that slightly shades another slot. I'm confused how it's AI for you

is hectic being a naughty boy this game?

is elements normally this quiet as town?

[Prism]

What made you change your mind on Tayl0r/Hectic being together, Prism?

It's a lot of small things put together.

First is the Tayl0r-Hectic progression in the 600/700s. She tackles Hectic with me but flips pretty randomly at some point. This was +pairing for me, but looking at the events that transpired between the two...I can kind of see it. Hectic posted a lot more content in that time, though I do wonder what Taylor was a fan of since she didn't like the Lavender read iirc. 1726 Taylor explains that it's liking his insistence on the spares, which lines up with how she was thinking about Pooky.

Thinking more about this too, the backlash against the spares is a real disconnect between scum partners. Tayl0r should be a lot more open to sparing if Hectic-Chara is going for it, for example, while Hectic shouldn't be pushing spares at all if it's Taylor-Chara.

Others are just small posts like 1004 and 1205. There's both of them openly saying that their only possible partner is each other.

Another is the fact that Hectic didn't take his time on my initial team accusation and just rolled with it. Even now Hectic is still defending her but he's not taking his time at all: He's very fast to react, isn't really worried, and is putting in as much effort into third party solving as ever.

Both of these players are more motivated than ever, simultaneously accepting that their most likely partners are each other, and even though the votes are a bit desperate I wouldn't at all say they've been very demoralized.

[Morning Tweet]

Why are you doing more accepting your fate when that is basically why I said i was having second thoughts in the first place?!? Why are you trying to die???? Oh my goodness

[Krazy]

VOTE: tayl0r

were you scum?

[Prism]

I individually scumread a lot about Hectic. His spare pushes look 10x worse in hindsight, and I actually do believe now that some of it is willfully blind/deceptive. He thought that the EV for sparing was 27% but

pushed for it anyway

. He made his way around the town giving out townreads like candy to anyone that showed up-me, Morning, catboi, Lavender-but avoided scumreads other than the one on Elements. He pushed for the spare but made no attempt to sell us on who he said it should be, because he had no desire to get that spare.

I individually scumread some things about Taylor. Her mech talk dismissals and some of the progressions

are

weird and random. I hate that they can't explain any of their Tanner/Chara preferences, for example.

But do I think they're scum together? No. No I don't. Hectic is setting up Taylor for a misfight if he's Chara, while Taylor is just rolling with my theory and letting Hectic protect her if she's scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

VOTE: tayl0r

were you scum?

no but thats not a real vote

[Tayl0r Swift]

It's a one line question that slightly shades another slot. I'm confused how it's AI for you

exactly. most of my alignment revealing posts are NAI.

[Tayl0r Swift]

those just arent posts scum!me naturally makes

[Prism]

Why do you feel so strongly that Hectic is town, Taylor?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Why do you feel so strongly that Hectic is town, Taylor?

im literally voting to hurt hectic and think hectic is scum

[Prism]

I am behind on the times. Damn.

My memory has finally failed me, I'll check it out again.

[Prism]

Oh okay this is like last 30 minutes while I've been thinking more about Chara, okay this makes sense how I missed this, thank you for pointing it out

[Prism]

ok but assume for a moment that im town. what does that mean? who are the scum then? if i cant be scum with hectic then the only solve is me and chara. but if im town, then whats the solve?

Right now my hunch is that it would be Hectic as Chara and Chara as the regular mafia, but my hunches this game have led me extremely wrong in my first two team ideas.

I really need to work down Chara's ISO and revisit Hectic's interactions with Chara to sanity check this though

[Prism]

Okay, so I'm with you on the Hectic scumtheory, especially if you're town. Can you explain why you townread them so strongly before?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Okay, so I'm with you on the Hectic scumtheory, especially if you're town. Can you explain why you townread them so strongly before?

haha, what do you think the answer to that will be

it was mostly the way hectic interacted directly with me. but now i think i was being silly. hectic interacted with me the way other people do. but hectic is normally super paranoid of me. and some of his logic was really strange, and i couldnt follow it. i just went along with it because i was under fire and he said i was town (i did the same thing in Menagerie where Loki thought he had logic that cleared me and found the scum, and i went along with it beacuse whether his logic was right the conclusion was good for town!me and therefore for town). i assumed that hectic was saying we couldnt be paired with anyone else, but he specifically said that i couldnt be paired with anyone else leaving us to assume that he was town if i was, which is a) not the case and b) not even what he said.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hmmm that was more of an answer than i thought id have

[Prism]

I have a rule of thumb I use in chat mafia. It's not to toneread players who specialize in tone.

Chara's tone is exceptional. I don't just mean them sucking up to me and deflecting questions with compliments. I mean constantly interacting with several people in the game and reacting to events. Skimming a few scumgames made their ability to fabricate nuance and genuine reactions, and

fast

, very clear. Regardless of whether they're town this game, this approach needs to go in the trash.

But the question is: Can I remove all of that entirely, and just simple yes/no evaluate them on this question instead: are their reads and the stances they've taken town? I already know there's one progression in general (Late Day 1 Taylor) that make me suspect no.

[Tayl0r Swift]

another reason hectic is probably scum is suddenly the game makes sense if hectic is scum. i dont feel lost anymore.

[Prism]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? What other parts of the game does it cast light on for you?

[Krazy]

the thing about hectic is he flipped from pushing me a good chunk of the day to voting with me on tanner
and on that same point, if hectic is town and tanner is scum then lynching hectic would have a very negative effect on gamestate... although I suppose a related argument could be made in defense of tanner though

still, putting aside the tonal things I saw earlier that are harder to quantify, why does hectic as scum spend so much of the day attacking my slot's credibility only to later switch to being one of the only people willing to build a wagon with me? like did he think the tanner wagon was just dead so he could safely votepark or what's the scum motivation there?

[Krazy]

another reason hectic is probably scum is suddenly the game makes sense if hectic is scum. i dont feel lost anymore.

also curious on an expansion on this

[Prism]

Tanner getting pushed here by town is a godsend from scum's POV. Their life gets significantly harder the longer he lives because he's noticeably a very strong player. This is 100% worth capitalizing on.

I've whiteknighted your slot so hard that it wasn't happening, and Taylor is dead in the water from Hectic's POV. No need to even push her himself.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? What other parts of the game does it cast light on for you?

its not like hectic being scum suddenly solves the game. its just that there was something wrong with the way i was looking at the game. i was stuck and couldnt really get my feet set. this let me do that. now i can probably start evaluating properly. i mean if the solve is hectic and chara ill feel pretty good about myself, but im not willing to bet on it being chara at this point, while im definitely willing to bet that hectic is scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

another reason hectic is probably scum is suddenly the game makes sense if hectic is scum. i dont feel lost anymore.

also curious on an expansion on this

Tanner getting pushed here by town is a godsend from scum's POV. Their life gets significantly harder the longer he lives because he's noticeably a very strong player. This is 100% worth capitalizing on.

I've whiteknighted your slot so hard that it wasn't happening, and Taylor is dead in the water from Hectic's POV. No need to even push her himself.

prism explains what it means for the game overall pretty well too

[Prism]

To be clear what I mean: Hectic had spent like a week shoving your (Krazy's) slot virtually every way imaginable-the meta on Sujimichi to confbias with more than genuinely investigate was really,

really

desperate imo-to no avail. Scumpushing redtea, scumpushing Sujimichi, outright declaring that if not Suji who else, that so many people make sense as scum with that slot (??? untrue), and also he's not even motivated to search until they flip so just vote them.

None of them happened. The votes weren't there.