Micro 972: E7 [Game Over!]

[Lost]

stealing pagetop for now, actually reading later

[joqiza]

So -in short- I haven't even read any your posts, aside from this one I'm responding to.

[joqiza]

Read me with your chest and tell me what you think my alignment is.

[joqiza]

Genuinely CBA to deal with people who claim to not have the time to read a 9 page game.

[joqiza]

Here's what I think about Nona, by the way. I think she could flip anything at this point in time. She could flip town. She could flip scum. I don't know. Getting content out of her is like squeezing blood from a stone. I look at 197 and I say, "yeah, it's not wrong," but nothing actually makes me confident on her alignment. If she's town I just want her to towntell because I'm simply not AFRAID of her if she's scum. If she's scum she gets yeeted. My fear is that she's TOWN and she's not towntelling. That's literally my main concern with her, to see there's town in that slot that I need to wrangle out like I'm some kind of snake charmer.

I can vibe with a scumread on her but only if it's a rock solid PoE where you simply believe that the other slots are towny to the point that surely she must be scum. I simply cannot buy that you are capable of a read on an 11-poster but not a read on me when I have 40x the word count and by all rights you should be focusing me. If I'm scum, I'm dangerous. I'm widely TR and clearly motivated. I can't wrap my head around the concept of having a town role PM, wanting to play to your town win condition, and choosing not to read my posts. I would never not read me.

[joqiza]

Did you read my case on Almost/Penguin? Do you agree?

this isn't addressed to me, but i read all of them and none of them feel particularly well substantiated. or more specifically, none of them are substantiated enough for me to want to use them to educate my current reads. too many reaches with too little evidence, and most importantly, they're all associative tells before any flips, which makes them even less useful.

Btw. I disagree generally that pre-flip associatives aren't useful, though I do think they're, like, secondary or whatever to your individual slot reads. That said I won't die on the hill for these, tho I do think the PP/Dong/mod interaction is actually quite useful. It's the one I accept completely and it tells you without a doubt that there must be at least one town in that pair, which is actually really useful.

Anyway, I mostly outed them to get some kind of reaction or SOMETHING going. Response was pretty lackluster so I won't dwell on it.

[joqiza]

Nona, I want to hear exactly what you think of Almost50's push on you. I want to hear the emotional response you had when you saw his vote and read his case on you. I want to hear what you think of the logic he presents, and I want to know what your read on his alignment is.

[joqiza]

nona has like a couple of completed games and is still holding a townie post title

What does "townie post title" mean here, btw?

[joqiza]

Y'all think my case work is unsubstantiated but it's because we're playing this game like it's a geriatric. There is literally no substance to be had. Someone come fight me.

[joqiza]

back.

i got town vibes from joqiza and pp's interaction earlier.

i also like billy pilgrim's question above^

Nona, you said this, earlier. I sort of took it to mean you were townreading PP. What changed? Or is that not what you meant?

[Almost50]

Read me with your chest and tell me what you think my alignment is.

I don't want to. The consensus is that you're town. Either the majority is correct OR it would be hard to convince then to eliminate you today.

Also, I didn't say I don't have the time. I said I want to read the whole day AFTER we get a flip. That helps me more.

[Almost50]

If I'm scum, I'm dangerous.

I don't know that, now do I? (i.e. did we play together before?)

[joqiza]

1. You don't get to wait until after a flip to read when we only get a single miselimination.
2. I'm not making a meta claim about my scum game, lol. I'm saying that based on my presence in this game alone you should be very concerned with determining my alignment! But I guess if you're not reading the game to begin with you wouldn't know that!

[joqiza]

See, what I'm trying to do right now is envision myself in your shoes and understand if you, after opening a town role pm, could possibly make a post like this:

I don't want to. The consensus is that you're town. Either the majority is correct OR it would be hard to convince then to eliminate you today.

If I sound incredulous it's because the level of apathy needed to write that does not jive at all with how I choose to play mafia. Obviously we are very different players and that's what makes this hard! I am trying to reach you and understand you but it's difficult. The thought of not having a confident solve is literally physically uncomfortable to me when I'm town, like I need to have some sort of belief to what people's alignments are or else I can't stop thinking about it because I keep imagining every possible scenario. I'm not saying I'm always right but the one thing I try to reach is a certainty about my read on people. That wishy-washy "I don't really know, maybe they could flip scum..." is anathema to me and I will do everything possible to move away from that state of being.

[joqiza]

Look, I understand not focusing on someone in, like, the beginning of Day 1 in an 11p or something. But this is a very small game with very sparse content, I don't think I'm making an unreasonable ask here.

The other thing is we only have one ML before we're in LYLO as opposed to the usual two, and for that reason, I'm pretty concerned with lynching scum today. I think if we lynch scum today we can win outright, I think if we don't lynch scum then we're in very dangerous territory. The thing about LYLO is that it only takes one town voting wrong for the mafia to win. You can literally know mafia and not have it make a difference, in order to win every town needs to be on the same page. Given how the game has played out so far, I simply don't trust that will be the case if we lynch wrong today.

[Almost50]

Let me ask you a direct (and very simple) question: WHY would you care what my read on you is? I already explained you are not today's elimination anyway, so what seems to bother you???

Unless -of course- you (as a dangerous scum) want to collect reads from today and then compare them to reads provided tomorrow in order to spot the Cop.

You claim to be concerned about eliminating scum today, and -if you're town- you should be content I am not looking your way. Period.

As for actual Scum, I have provided you with a SR on Nona, but you refuse to take sides on it. "They could be anything" is hardly a committed read, and if you think they're not posting enough content you should pressure THEM to produce more if you're so concerned about eliminating correct today.

I am treating you the same way as YOU are treating Nona (let it wait till tomorrow) except I am not the one making all the noise about it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

My read on Nona has developed to "unconfident scum" (THEY are unconfident, not my read on them). They are trying to avoid the thread as much as they can and their reads seems to follow consensus with not much originality/genuineness.

So, I now have Lost as a top TR, followed by PP then BP. I have Nona at the bottom of my read list and I have no "personal" read on Dong/Jog (this means I'd still sheep PP in these two, although I might now also consider Lost's reads)

A50, since the last time we'd played together, how would you say your game has changed?

[joqiza]

@Almost50

Why would I NOT care about what your read is on me? I am trying to assess if your reads come from a genuine, uninformed, town perspective rather than a fabrication of that. Let me re-phrase what I'm interested in. It's not that I care about your read on ME, it's that I care about your read on the player with the highest post volume and most significant thread presence in the game. That is actually not usually me! But it does happen to be me in this game!

You claim to be concerned about eliminating scum today, and -if you're town- you should be content I am not looking your way. Period.

Why does this even make sense? Why would I not want you to look my way if I'm town? What benefit does it confer me that you refuse to read me? The reason I'm pushing it is because I think you ignoring me is scummy.

Saying that I'm waiting until tomorrow to read Nona is an outright falsehood. Every post I make towards her is basically me, on my knees, begging her to give me something to work with. If she doesn't contribute more I'll put her on L-1 but I honestly could see town!Nona just walking back into thread and just claiming her role instead of actually bothering to towntell in response to that.

My issue with you is that you claim to be able to divine this sort of read on Nona of "unconfident scum" when in my eyes there's little to suggest that she couldn't just be town that doesn't give a shit. I actually do find the little content she has pretty questionable but for the most part she is unreadable so far and so my strategy is to read AROUND her, figuring out to the alignments of the other players in order to PoE to her alignment. Which is why, by the way, I'm pressuring YOU. You, meanwhile, claim to have figured Nona out while also not having a read on me or Dong.

[Billy Pilgrim]

i like nona

hi nona what do you think about billy

could use some more analysis. i like his questions though, and his approach to joqiza on post 65 was nice.

could you do that analysis now and then come up with something more concrete?

sorry i meant id like to hear more reads/analysis from billy before i think on his alignment

because all ive seen so far is questions and interactions with others which is nai

This is interesting. I've played a decent bit of games on site and this is the first time someone didn't get a sort of gutted from my playstyle. Most people sort of immediately scumread me while others think its a townie curiosity, but this was an explicit fence-sit until i came out with more reads.

Why would my reads help sort me. Let's say I think you're hedging. What does that mean for my alignment? Let's say I think the monkey is a bit out of character because I'm used to him spam posting?

Side note, I like the way dong answered my concerns about it, but ... im concerned because that's what I do as scum. I tend to interrogate the scumreads and like see if parts of it are valid. So im a bit confused how if you think im misrepresenting a sort of playstyle you have that makes me town.

I realize that I didn't vote there after the last votecount and this hasn't really given me a reason to townbin you.

VOTE: Dong

Also, I looked at that game with Umlaut, but didn't see what you were referring to. Can you point me to your back and forth? I'll admit I didn't read the whole game, I was more looking for your early posts because here you seemed to rocket the game out of RVS and I picked up in your town games that you tend to suspect people that do that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Nona, I want to hear exactly what you think of Almost50's push on you. I want to hear the emotional response you had when you saw his vote and read his case on you. I want to hear what you think of the logic he presents, and I want to know what your read on his alignment is.

Holy shit, are we playing mafia or did someone sign me up for group therapy and not tell me?

[joqiza]

want to collect reads from today and then compare them to reads provided tomorrow in order to spot the Cop.

Also this, quite frankly, is not something that would ever happen. I'm pretty sure the Cop just claims tomorrow in almost every scenario.

[joqiza]

Nona, I want to hear exactly what you think of Almost50's push on you. I want to hear the emotional response you had when you saw his vote and read his case on you. I want to hear what you think of the logic he presents, and I want to know what your read on his alignment is.

Holy shit, are we playing mafia or did someone sign me up for group therapy and not tell me?

See the thing is I'm used to playing mafia with people who aren't a bunch of robots.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Almost50

Why would I NOT care about what your read is on me? I am trying to assess if your reads come from a genuine, uninformed, town perspective rather than a fabrication of that. Let me re-phrase what I'm interested in. It's not that I care about your read on ME, it's that I care about your read on the player with the highest post volume and most significant thread presence in the game. That is actually not usually me! But it does happen to be me in this game!

You claim to be concerned about eliminating scum today, and -if you're town- you should be content I am not looking your way. Period.

Why does this even make sense? Why would I not want you to look my way if I'm town? What benefit does it confer me that you refuse to read me? The reason I'm pushing it is because I think you ignoring me is scummy.

Saying that I'm waiting until tomorrow to read Nona is an outright falsehood. Every post I make towards her is basically me, on my knees, begging her to give me something to work with. If she doesn't contribute more I'll put her on L-1 but I honestly could see town!Nona just walking back into thread and just claiming her role instead of actually bothering to towntell in response to that.

My issue with you is that you claim to be able to divine this sort of read on Nona of "unconfident scum" when in my eyes there's little to suggest that she couldn't just be town that doesn't give a shit. I actually do find the little content she has pretty questionable but for the most part she is unreadable so far and so my strategy is to read AROUND her, figuring out to the alignments of the other players in order to PoE to her alignment. Which is why, by the way, I'm pressuring YOU. You, meanwhile, claim to have figured Nona out while also not having a read on me or Dong.

I dont have a read on you either because what I see is a bunch of LAMIST type posting and that tends to be more playstyle indicative than alignment indicative. So what does my null read of you mean for my alignment?

[joqiza]

You're one of my top townread atm because you seemed genuinely concerned with sorting me into the correct "player type" and you're one of the only players in this game with a pulse. Your actual level of read isn't what matters, it's how you approach it.

[joqiza]

And yeah, I usually don't scream and shout so much but I find the complacency annoying. If I have to put on a cat and dog show to get reactions out of people then I'll do it.