Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

He know this is inoptimal, but doesn't care. He wants me out because I'm sus of him.

Btw this is really the crux that Hectic's Pooky-Scumcase lies on.

Does Pooky want to elim Hectic because Hectic is suspicious of Pooky or does Pooky want to elim Hectic because Pooky thinks Hectic is scum. This is the crucial thing you need to look to d2 for if you want to figure out whether his case on me is good or bad.


If you pull up Hectic's D2 ISO, what does it say about Pooky?

In 1081 he concludes correctly that I am innocent - even going so far as to say I am an "innocent child"

Most of his play on the early part of D2 was pushing Sujimichi's slot - can you find a post where he pushes for my elimination?

Later he states in 2392 that I am in the lower tier of his reads list along with three others but that he would not vote me. - however this is after I suspect him as a deepwolf in 2334

So I don't see how he can conclude that I am going after him for suspecting me when the actual timeline of events of D2 were that he concluded that I was "an innocent child" and I was the one who was pushing on him.

If I'm scum why would I initiate a push on Hectic who is very hard to remove when he's already town slotting me? It's not like we didn't have a number of easier pushes at the time.

[Hectic]

In 1081 he concludes correctly that I am innocent - even going so far as to say I am an "innocent child"

That was thematic lul

I also made 1111.

Later he states in 2392 that I am in the lower tier of his reads list along with three others but that he would not vote me. - however this is after I suspect him as a deepwolf in 2334

Might I remind you of my readslist in 772? You were always quite low down in my reads, but what appeared to me at the time like Ele pocketing you changed my mind in pursuing you start of D2. The other evidence outweighs what might've been pocketing though.

Hectic,

Why did you let Puppy get away on D2 with saying that he never scumread you? :3

I don't really remember what I thought of it at the time tbh. You are correct it's sneaky and I should've noticed and pushed it.

[Hectic]

Also you should note that I did not vote anyone else on d1 either so it's not like I was pushing another wagon and then decided to hop onto Elements when it got to deadline.

My one and only vote on D1 is for a bad guy - one that I had pushed as scum as soon as I stopped pushing for spares coming out of the spare discussion.

Why didn't you use your FIGHT vote as soon as you stopped pushing your SPAREs? Why only at the EoD?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I also made 1111.

and I answered it at the time and you responded with 1139

so there was nothing for me to even think you were suspecting me - let alone something on the scale that would prompt a pre-emptive attack by me on you - which also isn't even the way I handle suspicion as scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Might I remind you of my readslist in 772? You were always quite low down in my reads, but what appeared to me at the time like Ele pocketing you changed my mind in pursuing you start of D2. The other evidence outweighs what might've been pocketing though.

and look at who's the lowest on your readlist - the chara you let get away.. why didn't you follow up with him on D2? If anything ele flipping red should've made you more suspicious of Puppy no?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't really remember what I thought of it at the time tbh. You are correct it's sneaky and I should've noticed and pushed it.

If somebody had made a shitty push on me D1 to try to relieve pressure off his scumbuddy and I had noted it at the time on D1 and then he tried to pretend D2 he never made that shitty push and his only scumread was on the scumbuddy on D2 - I would've jumped down his throat on the spot and attacked. You apparently just let it go and push Suji instead - I really can't see town-Hectic doing that.

[Hectic]

Yeah, I probably would've pursued it more if I wasn't so blinded by Suji-scum. redtea's soft defense, Suji reading D1 and having no thoughts, and the double rep out were all really damning to me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't really believe you were so blinded by Suji that you couldn't follow up with your other suspicions from D1 - especially since Suji repped out and we were waiting for someone to replace into the slot.

[Hectic]

Also you should note that I did not vote anyone else on d1 either so it's not like I was pushing another wagon and then decided to hop onto Elements when it got to deadline.

My one and only vote on D1 is for a bad guy - one that I had pushed as scum as soon as I stopped pushing for spares coming out of the spare discussion.

Why didn't you use your FIGHT vote as soon as you stopped pushing your SPAREs? Why only at the EoD?

Mind answering this btw

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Pooky on the other hand having his first vote of the game be on Ele when it looked like that was going through for sure is sus

I don't think this is a fair framing of the situation - as far as I remember I was one of the first people to suspect/push ele no?

This is also true, and Ele OMGUSing you and pushing you as Chara is another town point in your favour, unless he was already in anti-spew mode, and if so... respect.

We already addressed this yesterday. Quite silly for you to bring it up again today.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

This is what I hit Ele with on D1: I think it is more serious than a "hurt vote" and probably more persuasive too. Saying now that I didn't want to elim ele-scum D1 is just silly.

Spoiler:

I think part of the struggle for me is how it's really that unnatural. It seems like you had issue with his tone. But without knowing Elements, and just knowing that he misread you 4 games in a row, joking around about you always being town and sparing you in RVS seems extremely natural.

I can definitely see myself voting this slot, though.

Well, yeah, but I do know his tone. And like I said, it's usually kinda abrasive and very unpockety. His type of approach towards Pooky and I this game I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but I think there's more scum-motivation than town-motivation for the shift.

Let's look at Elements progression on my slot this game:

pooky are you always so lovely?

HEAL: pooky

HEAL: pooky
can't say no to that

9/12 * 7/10 * 5/7 * 3/5 = 0.225
4 spares at random

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

this is a game
it's meant to be fun
sparing is the more fun path
we should spare

Hectic - Town
Elements - Town
Chara - null
Prism - town
PookyTheMagicalBear - chara
catboi - town
Morning Tweet - town
Tayl0r Swift - eh
Lavender - who?
redtea - eh
Tanner - scum
CantLynchAPuppy - scum

Like do you see anywhere in the ISO where there's a natural shift from elements from let's do 4 spare and Pooky should be one of them to "Pooky is the Chara"

Like it's just comical his progression on me and it feels like a Chara that just gave up lol.

[Hectic]

Pooky on the other hand having his first vote of the game be on Ele when it looked like that was going through for sure is sus

I don't think this is a fair framing of the situation - as far as I remember I was one of the first people to suspect/push ele no?

This is also true, and Ele OMGUSing you and pushing you as Chara is another town point in your favour, unless he was already in anti-spew mode, and if so... respect.

We already addressed this yesterday. Quite silly for you to bring it up again today.

Meh, past me is stupid though. He listed you as

Chara

but gave no reasoning and didn't try and push you, so I don't know why that'd be in your favour.

[Hectic]

This is what I hit Ele with on D1: I think it is more serious than a "hurt vote" and probably more persuasive too. Saying now that I didn't want to elim ele-scum D1 is just silly.

Spoiler:

I think part of the struggle for me is how it's really that unnatural. It seems like you had issue with his tone. But without knowing Elements, and just knowing that he misread you 4 games in a row, joking around about you always being town and sparing you in RVS seems extremely natural.

I can definitely see myself voting this slot, though.

Well, yeah, but I do know his tone. And like I said, it's usually kinda abrasive and very unpockety. His type of approach towards Pooky and I this game I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but I think there's more scum-motivation than town-motivation for the shift.

Let's look at Elements progression on my slot this game:

pooky are you always so lovely?

HEAL: pooky

HEAL: pooky
can't say no to that

9/12 * 7/10 * 5/7 * 3/5 = 0.225
4 spares at random

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

this is a game
it's meant to be fun
sparing is the more fun path
we should spare

Hectic - Town
Elements - Town
Chara - null
Prism - town
PookyTheMagicalBear - chara
catboi - town
Morning Tweet - town
Tayl0r Swift - eh
Lavender - who?
redtea - eh
Tanner - scum
CantLynchAPuppy - scum

Like do you see anywhere in the ISO where there's a natural shift from elements from let's do 4 spare and Pooky should be one of them to "Pooky is the Chara"

Like it's just comical his progression on me and it feels like a Chara that just gave up lol.

I didn't find that persuasive. A

Chara

is far less likely to give up than regular scum on D1, given they just need to survive 1 day and they're home free most likely. So, you focusing on Ele being exactly

Chara

is very strange.

Also, the whole point is that this reads like distancing since you never vote him until deadline and when there's no other obvious wagons.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that's my point. Past-Hectic was not pushing Pooky or suspecting Pooky.

So Present-Hectic's entire case on "Pooky pushing Hectic because Hectic susp Pooky" is nonsense because Past-Hectic was not pushing Pooky..

[Hectic]

I wasn't pushing you but I had you in my suspool and I don't think anyone else did. Why not get the only person sus of you launched is what I'm guessing you were thinking when I revealed that pool.

[Hectic]

Also you should note that I did not vote anyone else on d1 either so it's not like I was pushing another wagon and then decided to hop onto Elements when it got to deadline.

My one and only vote on D1 is for a bad guy - one that I had pushed as scum as soon as I stopped pushing for spares coming out of the spare discussion.

Why didn't you use your FIGHT vote as soon as you stopped pushing your SPAREs? Why only at the EoD?

Mind answering this btw

¿_¿

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I wasn't pushing you but I had you in my suspool and I don't think anyone else did. Why not get the only person sus of you launched is what I'm guessing you were thinking when I revealed that pool.

I was susp of you as deepwolf before you put me in the susp pool - your timeline is wrong.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

¿_¿

??

We literally dealt with this question on D2 when you asked me and you were satisfied with my answer then - now you are trying to re-litigate this because you're grasping.

[Hectic]

I'm asking specifically why you didn't vote to FIGHT anyone prior to that, irrespective of your late Ele vote.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

but what's the motivation behind this question? If you were actually curious you would've pursued this D2.

Now you're just trying to use it to attack me because you realize you have to get rid of me to survive.

[Prism]

I wound up sleeping zero last night, and I do have something really important on Friday that takes a lot of prep. I'm sorry for being like, half here half not.

I do think it's important that I get my confidence back and get back on the saddle, though, so kiss befuzzled Weird Al goodbye.

For Hectic, I picked up on a similar "For the audience" bit with Pooky's 610 catboi push. I also didn't find that post very generous to catboi, either. I've mentioned it before but I hated his entire progression on catboi even if there was a small section of 610 I liked.

1006 I don't feel a Ele-fight was as set in stone as you think. Eleboy had 3 votes, one of which was Puppy. Plenty of places to throw around weight between Tayl0r, Hectic, Lavender, or other.

The push on you (Hectic) I'm pretty torn because I think it's plausible either way. I buy Pooky-town being conflicted on you, but you might be onto something with the dual "Scared of fighting town me but later does it anyway" bit. The unvote around Tayl0r, citing Tweet sowing uncertainty, is a bit weird and the alternate vote atm was actually Lavender.

I do think Pooky as scum here is plausible given that none of Tayl0r/Lavender/Krazy are likely to be scum, ie. Pooky had nothing to lose by playing it slow and patient (similar to me!) but a vote there will take a complete reread of the slot

[Prism]

Me engaging more with the Hectic-side than the Pooky-side is also probably annoying for Pooky so I'll circle back around, but my instinct is that Hectic is pretty town between the two flips...and as I said yesterday, as much as I hate how he's played this game, his progressions have been good.

...Granted, Puppy's were also exceptional and is exactly what got me here in the first place. Maybe I need to take a different approach entirely. But neither tone nor progressions really work, I do wonder what's left?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'm ok with it. even if I get MLed here you guys have plenty of chances to get Hectic and if he were to actually win the game I would not feel bad at all.

[Prism]

...Why? We've both put in way, way too much of our souls to be fine with anyone else winning. Everyone has played super well, but to say I would find a loss bitter is an understatement.

[Prism]

With how much time, effort, and energy you've put into this game you're really fine getting fought here?