Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

I think the miscalc option is plausible for basically everyone but Tanner, Hectic also might take a bit more care to it but he's noticeably...not been on his game mechanically, which is partially why I hated his Day 1 so much.

Someone said Krazy doesn't make that mistake either but idk and I think the slot is town anyway

[Chara]

so i take it Pooky can be generally self-sacrificial as town? it might unfortunately be NAI if it's something he does as town and then tries to use to his advantage as scum.

i don't know what to do about the no-kill. i bet it's going to be revealed as something really pedestrian in post-game. some flavour of scum fucking up either in thinking it's good WIFOM and not realizing it helps our numbers, or just plain forgetting.
...so this would be another reason Tanner isn't scum? like, i could see Prism forgetting about the nightskip, but they're not scum. i can't think of anyone else i'd outright rule out based on the no-kill.

[Chara]

I think the miscalc option is plausible for basically everyone but Tanner,

mindmeld

[Chara]

To be honest what I'm describing here is exactly why I'm always eager to hear your thoughts/why your presence as a player was so missed

Your approach and ways of thinking are so different from mine but are somehow absolutely brilliant in their own way?

Like at the risk of being borderline offensive I find your attention/working memory issues completely enthralling, absolutely positive, rather than a drawback or a negative

Spoiler: nobody read this

sgghdhdjdjsbdkdmhdjfkdldbdjjdkfkdhdjfklsksjdhdjfhhdksjdhdkslkdhfhdkdkdjdj

shut the fuck up you're doing this on purpose

[Tanner]

right i'm supposed to be catching up or something

still I was thinking you were town anyway and it makes sense looking at the gamestate at that time that buddy was already on wagon

if you just concluded that puppy posting doesn't make sense either way (which tbh i agreee with, i think he genuinely didn't know about the deadline rule), what about the gamestate is pointing to that?

Again, it's hard not to admit that a lot of my issue with his slot is pure omgus. I feel like anyone who has played with me as scum knows that I loathe playing scum and would never, ever prolong a game, so him still pushing me despite that makes me feel like he could have *a non-town agenda* somehow in doing so, but he could simply be lost and biting at his reads from earlier in the game.

i wanna think that no-nightkill is indicative for someone, but like the best i got is "whoever is scum didn't see the n4-is-skipped part." because i don't think anyone here would purosefully prolong this game as scum and make it harder on themselves. but somebody did.

you're saying scum-you would go over all of the rules carefully during n2? and not miss the n4-is-skipped? (i'm aware this might be a dumb and/or pointless question but)

it more comes off as a difference in mood. This game has been a struggle to effort in at certain times and it feels like Tanner got hit by that on occasion.

I dont know. I feel like Tanners desire to play has been dying at certain points and I think it's enough to throw off meta.

ok fair. But if datisi is simply conventionally polarized and doesn't particularly like playing scum, why would a difference in mood pointing to waning interest not be scum indicative? I feel like that's the specific change in mood that is most often scum indicative?

this kinda annoys me because while yes, i often don't feel like playing scum, there's been a plethora of towngames in which i was acting similarly (and krazy has seen first-hand like two of those) and to me this kinda post just feels more like "making sure other players aren't townreading me correctly" than "genuinely worrying about my alignment"

Like, putting Tanner aside, if you're scum and know a buddy is poisoned and is going to flip no matter what that night, then I can definitely see a world where you begin the day pushing the poisoned buddy while planning to back off or let the rest of the game go in other directions so that you don't actually bus but still get the towncred for the push, i.e. classic distancing

so the question is where does classical distancing end and a town-indicative scum push begin? Well I guess, having forgotten his iso, we could posit a theorem:
if after this, he gives himself more room to back off, it could be scummy
but if he took strong conviction and tried to build a wagon, it'd be townie

and this also... *insanely* bothers me. we can also pose a different theorem:
- if tanner gave up his puppy push when he realized nobody is listening to him and decided to try to sort elsewhere where it was viable, it'd be towny
- if tanner decided to keep being tunneled on puppy and not try to sort anyone else and then tomorrow farm up the towncred from pushing confscum the whole day, it'd be scummy

* as for my puppy/suji not aligned read... i genuinely don't remember what i was thinking there, however i will look into it. and that was before puppy voted suji too. hmm.

ok made it to my post earlier.
chara do you need me to talk about my puppy read or is the "readslist" i made earlier good?

[Chara]

Krazy > Pooky > Hectic
i should stop for the day. this list is almost the same as the last one i posted which feels almost unfair, because i thought i was getting somewhere.

Prism/Tanner are never* scum, and Lavender/Tweet have some good reasons not to be.

current thought is Krazy's vibes are fairly "on the outside, looking in".

[Chara]

chara do you need me to talk about my puppy read or is the "readslist" i made earlier good?

i'm satisfied for today.

[Tanner]

i have zero desire to eliminate Krazy and i don't know what to do with that.

is this still the case or?

[Chara]

nope, it was a fleeting thought that didn't stick.

[Prism]

half game content, half PDA to make all the other

kids in the high school cafeteria line

players slightly uncomfortable

our posts today were perfect

[Chara]

Prism still thinks the flirting is something i do with lots of players. it's cute.

[Chara]

i mean, um... eliminate Krazy? because evidence and scumhunting and playing mafia.

[Morning Tweet]

Shit so like, if scum thought they had a nightkill N4, would the no-kill then make sense? And if so, who is vulnerable to not being aware of that? Hm hm hmmm

i have a proposal

Kill Pooky -> Kill Krazy then reevaluate if game actually goes past that. No point in planning past there I don't think

If enough ppl want to, we can kill Krazy first I guess but am I right that this is basically the consensus? Krazy actually kind of seems more consensusy than Pooky so I gotta pull out the towncase at some point maybe

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

pooky wyd

what if not hectic either

If it's not Hectic then my presence in the game is clouding his vision and he would be better off knowing that I am town and flipped and he can find the real killer.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Pooky reminds me of Menagerie a littl bit

Granted, he got screwed in that game. But essentially, he was scum inside of a gladiate with Isis. He had to push her in order to stay alive. Instead, he did the WIFOMy "We're both town, this is tragic, oh no which one of us should live?" sort of angle.

Isis got enough heat from ppl where she like 10% considered voting herself at one point. pooky ultimately died but everyone in the thread was convinced he was town

i guess what reminds me of that is how Pooky is suggesting we eliminate him repeatedly in this game. It seeeems like a losing play -- just like the no kill does. But maybe doing something ridiculous is all scum has at this point, idk

Seriously, who here would even think about no killing?

Other than Lavender who probably forgot to submit

Isis never really thought about voting herself imo. At that point we were both just trying to pocket whoever we could for the gladiate because it's a gladiate. And there's no gladiate here.

[Morning Tweet]

Isis never really thought about voting herself imo. At that point we were both just trying to pocket whoever we could for the gladiate because it's a gladiate. And there's no gladiate here.

Yeah but she and pretty much the whole thread felt pretty sure u were gonna flip town. Ik she was never realistically gonna self vote but still :p

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so i take it Pooky can be generally self-sacrificial as town? it might unfortunately be NAI if it's something he does as town and then tries to use to his advantage as scum.

It's not really about self-sacrifice for me.

I only really do this in games I genuinely deeply care about, and this is one of them.

Once I get committed to a game, my level of commitment really only increases.

Would it be painful for me to be mis-elim'd here? Yes absolutely - I've put a lot more of myself into this game than I was really planning to because I really like the Mod and the Setup, it's something elegant and beautiful to me and I'm absolutely a perfectionist when it comes to things like this.

However the town is in a great position, we can miss 2 mis-elims in a row and be in an F5 with 2 PubCops and 2 chances to find 1 scum in 3 players. (raw odds is about 24% victory probability)

What I would feel awful about is if I end up eliming Hectic and he flips green. That would be beyond devastating to me because he's a great player and what if it was me being a re-re that caused him to read me wrong? What if Hectic would've found the real murderer if I was not here distracting him with my constant neediness? That would be awful and I'd be truly gamethrowing if I allowed that to happen.

But there's another scenario I fear worse than this - that's if we don't elim me or Hectic and we get to a point where it's LYLO or close to LYLO and it's between me and Hectic with the game on the line.

That would require me to commit to levels to this game I simply do not feel comfortable doing and it would be absolutely devastating to me if we get to that point and he MLs me for the win - then the burden for the loss would feel very heavy and I'm not sure I would like that.

I think the talk about me vs hectic has been too distracting for a lot of people - I truly hope he's good here and I'm just being an idiot and we find the scum somewhere else.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Isis never really thought about voting herself imo. At that point we were both just trying to pocket whoever we could for the gladiate because it's a gladiate. And there's no gladiate here.

Yeah but she and pretty much the whole thread felt pretty sure u were gonna flip town. Ik she was never realistically gonna self vote but still :p

No I'm pretty sure she knew I was bad, she just made the calculation that it would be easier to elim me by out-towning me than attacking me directly. She's very good at this :3

[Krazy]

i mean, um... eliminate Krazy? because evidence and scumhunting and playing mafia.

I'm pretty confused by your progression on me. You said earlier you think I'm 'looking in' which I don't really get, and I'm not sure what you're seeing as scummy or why you briefly were saying you didn't want to fight me

[Krazy]

Prism/Tanner are never* scum, and Lavender/Tweet have some good reasons not to be.

can you expand on like...... all of this lol

[Krazy]

what about the gamestate is pointing to that?

because his posting makes more sense if he was trying to spew people off the wagon as scum partners, which would imply the partner is on the wagon

[Krazy]

you're saying scum-you would go over all of the rules carefully during n2? and not miss the n4-is-skipped? (i'm aware this might be a dumb and/or pointless question but)

In general I think building a case around the idea someone didn't read the rules before deciding to no kill is a great way to throw a game lol

like Datisi

do you want

to case me

based on the idea

I either didn't read the rules

or couldn't understand the rules

is that like, a real argument, you actually want to make in this game?

[Krazy]

and this also... *insanely* bothers me. we can also pose a different theorem:
- if tanner gave up his puppy push when he realized nobody is listening to him and decided to try to sort elsewhere where it was viable, it'd be towny
- if tanner decided to keep being tunneled on puppy and not try to sort anyone else and then tomorrow farm up the towncred from pushing confscum the whole day, it'd be scummy

I don't agree with this at all, even kinda

the whole reason Prism was freaking out yesterday was because that was *the day*

that was the day Chara is still alive and lynching chara can result in gamewin

and you're making it seem like you were hyper tunneled. you weren't. this is a misrepresentation of your day 2 trajectory

you said it was a spicy hot take, 300 posts later you basically asked him to give you a reason to unvote him, and then later you kinda just stopped

selling the narrative that that is a "tunnel" you broke out of seems pretty distant from what actually happened

[Chara]

i mean, um... eliminate Krazy? because evidence and scumhunting and playing mafia.

I'm pretty confused by your progression on me. You said earlier you think I'm 'looking in' which I don't really get, and I'm not sure what you're seeing as scummy or why you briefly were saying you didn't want to fight me

this post is actually more of a joke about my and Prism's torrid love affair distracting from mafia than a testament to my confidence you're scum.
at the end of day it's a PoE read. i briefly didn't want to fight you because a post was hitting me with townvibes (the one where you start to set up the Tanner case, i believe) but the feeling didn't last.

"outside looking in" refers to how it feels like you're sort of playing a different game than the rest of us. i don't know what it means yet, maybe it means you're the only one with your head screwed on correctly, but it's referring to things like the Tanner and Tweet suspicion.

[Krazy]

I know there are three distinct reasons people are arguing Tanner is town, but just to be clear, this progression:

i don't know what i want to talk about. something that makes me think you're not trying to murder us all, because at this point i'm sounding insane to myself. i guess a good start would be who you're willing to fight today and what is actually your read on me?

here's my spicy take of the night.

HURT: puppy

is very easily s/s

Point #1: "Why would tanner observe that the game is lost if there's no fight on day 2?"

because four people could wake up and hammer and he gets a lot of towncred for fearmongering to force people to commit to *a fight on town*

Point #2: "Why would tanner no kill and then observe there's an extra fight for a no kill?"

Why would he NOT do this as scum? Why would *Anyone* do this as scum? He's literally the only one who seems to have a motivation for it since he's arguing it should be town indicative for him (when it isn't) and to push me (who is also town)

So of the three points for town tanner:

1 "Eod2 fear of no fight" I acknowledge that my concerns about 1 are striking people as like paranoid or something, but we're looking at a scenario where puppy came in and basically reinforced the narrative and fear that tanner was building when that narrative and fear didn't exist before tanner created it. So we're either looking at a scenario where puppy was just playing off and manipulating the gamestate tanner created, or he was working with tanner to create that gamestate. That's convoluted and inelegant but that doesn't mean it's not what actually happened

Point 2 -- "start of day 3 extra fight observation" -- Prism keeps bringing this up and I still kinda just don't get this argument at all. Why does this make him town at all? It's basically IIOA, or it would be IIOA if he wasn't using it to push me, so instead it's just a pretext for a bad push

Point 3 -- "day 2 puppy progression" -- Tweet has this as the basis of her towncase on Tanner, and I look at it and see it as a high probability s/s interaction

I don't think any of the three town-clearing elements of a tanner towncase hold water and some of them seem to point to him as being scum instead