Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Morning Tweet]

Okay, so scum probably couldn't have anticipated that Elements would drop out (and that beeboy wouldn't have the time and energy to redeem the slot). Some distancing is never a bad thing, especially in Puppy's case where he would probably have hoped to help Elements after his suicide.

Maybe my issue is that I'm treating it like scum knew they were death sentencing Elements D1, when they really didn't. I'm well aware that they didn't intend to kill Elements -- so am I giving too much credit for those on his wagon?

I mean, if Pooky is town, then that is the explanation for Hectic or Chara being scum. They would have just not seen that coming, I suppose. It feels unecessary to me but it could have been great had Elements survived longer.

Now if it's not Hectic or Chara, then my next inclination would be Krazy. I have a huge feeling that Krazy's push on Tanner today (and response to being pushed by Tanner) just isn't from scum. But i can't explain it very well

And finally of course there's Lav who blundered the win for scum by hammering tayl0r and then proceeded to rub salt in the wound by forgetting to nightkill.

pedit: I'm jealous, everyone else has dramatic lover stuff going on and im just watching confused :C

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

When did scum really have a chance to help save the Elements slot on D1?

[Morning Tweet]

Hectic wagon as far as I can remember. That's basically it lol. Puppy tried it when there was some really good momentum heading Hectics way (I outlined that in a post a little while ago).

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so why didn't the scum push Hectic's wagon?

[Morning Tweet]

Serious enough to try and pivot the D1 wagon off Elements and to Hectic. Apparently Hectic was his top/second to top scumread all along. He did this right after a bunch of people were openly suspecting Hectic. See the below:

Spoiler: check the context

I could go with pushing hectic this game - his play this game has felt shadier and less like the brilliant town player that I know he is capable of being.

572: ooh. this post gave me a terrible feeling. i'll keep an eye out.

Likely Scum:
Hectic

omg omg your reads match my PoE. why am i so excited.

HURT: hectic sorry :(

I still want elements but I'm willing to give that slot a ment to change my mind now that there's been a sub. Hectic is my next best bet. Maybe I need to work on some wcumreads, I mostly have townreads

Side note, how the FUCK did i miss that? Hectic pointed it out a bunch yesterday and I was just like "lol why would he waste his towncred though". I feel dumb

He does swap back to Elements after beeboy accumulates a couple of extra quick votes. But I'm willing to bet he'd have preferred to see that Hectic wagon go through

You are certainly right that there was some serious distancing going on if those three are partnered though

ya this one

pedit: They did tho? Puppy did anyway. Let's see what happened after all the voiced Hectic suspicions and Puppy's vote...

Spoiler: After Puppy's pivot

Isis
Morning Tweet
Prism
Lavender
catboi
redtea
Chara
Tanner
PookyTheMagicalBear
Tayl0r Swift
CantLynchAPuppy
Elements

Hectic called both scum correctly. He also started hard towncasing Lav. He has to be throwing if he's scum. Has to be.

goddamit now hectic looks town, what am I doing this game

Yikes, catboi liked all Hectic's response posts

lots of posts i want to touch but im just not in the mood today. feeling down. maybe tomorrow. :(

but also i willl say is i feel bad about hectic b/c he invited me to play with him this game, so it feels bad to scumread him. he just doesn't feel like the last game i played at all

but also i willl say is i feel bad about hectic b/c he invited me to play with him this game, so it feels bad to scumread him. he just doesn't feel like the last game i played at all

Don't feel bad about that! It's a game and I obviously don't take scumreads personally.

Regarding the "feels different to last game thing":
This is a huge problem I get and a big reason I secret alt all the time. I frequently change my playstyle between games, and differ the amount I joke/my tone/type of posts etc. Now, the issue with this is that some players notice I'm different from the previous town game they played with me in, and then put this difference down to a change in alignment, when this infact really isn't the case.

Puppy is like "get hectic he's scum!!!" pretty hard now

so i kind of scumread Puppy's posts here but //i// would feel bad to press it. ahaha. feel better Puppy.

but re: what he and Hectic were talking about with shifting in tone from game to game, this is why i'm so opposed to blanket application of single-game meta. there's going to be significant changes in a player's mood and approach from game to game without the cause being their alignment.

lol

I hope you are all proud of me for restraining myself from posting more. Skitter told me I need to dial down my involvement in games and give them a chance to breathe.

Anyway here are some of my thoughts over the last 24 hours:


1] Hectic

I liked his TR of Lavendar - I was worried for a moment that he was moving to LHF-Push Lavendar as her meta is fairly weak - this slides him more towards a good player for me.

Not like SOUL-READ MASON- but closer. The music is also lovely.

2) Catboi

I find it strange that he would pursue the path of attacking me and claim that he expected me to bury him in a giant wall and then back off the way he did.

If this is what you expect me to do when you attack then why would you even attack in the first place if you were just going to walk away? The behavior is strange and I'm not sure if it is AI.

3) Redtea has gone mia

I hope he's alright and I would like to discuss his town-read on catboi with him.

4) I like reading Prism/Chara conversations - they are refreshing.

5) MorningTweet is too cute.

6) Could it be that Puppy is scum with Elements? Would be very interesting to re-examine the Puppy slot. I would be sad if my puppy friend was scum here.

Ending Thoughts -

I would like everyone to take the time to do a detailed readslist with actual citations for how they feel about each slot in the game.

Right now we feel somewhat directionless very close to the deadline and I would like to get more of an overall sense of how the room is feeling before we decide on a fight candidate.

Also if we miss and hit town it would be very useful to see the Chara's readslist.

You liked Hectic. Did not like catboi. Considered Puppy/Elements as the scumteam !!

so that makes my PoE chara, lavender, redtea, puppy. out of those i want to HURT: chara

Tayl0r decided on Chara. At this point, Hectic + Elements + Chara are the only options on the table

I think part of the struggle for me is how it's really that unnatural. It seems like you had issue with his tone. But without knowing Elements, and just knowing that he misread you 4 games in a row, joking around about you always being town and sparing you in RVS seems extremely natural.

I can definitely see myself voting this slot, though.

Well, yeah, but I do know his tone. And like I said, it's usually kinda abrasive and very unpockety. His type of approach towards Pooky and I this game I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but I think there's more scum-motivation than town-motivation for the shift.

Let's look at Elements progression on my slot this game:

pooky are you always so lovely?

HEAL: pooky

HEAL: pooky
can't say no to that

9/12 * 7/10 * 5/7 * 3/5 = 0.225
4 spares at random

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

this is a game
it's meant to be fun
sparing is the more fun path
we should spare

Hectic - Town
Elements - Town
Chara - null
Prism - town
PookyTheMagicalBear - chara
catboi - town
Morning Tweet - town
Tayl0r Swift - eh
Lavender - who?
redtea - eh
Tanner - scum
CantLynchAPuppy - scum

Like do you see anywhere in the ISO where there's a natural shift from elements from let's do 4 spare and Pooky should be one of them to "Pooky is the Chara"

Like it's just comical his progression on me and it feels like a Chara that just gave up lol.

You're calling Elements scum but you haven't formally voted still. It's nice but it comes later than everyone else I'm considering's scumreads on Ele (Chara, Hectic) and you still haven't really sealed the deal or anything cause he's not ur greatest scumread

im down for a beeboy wagon

gulp

is there an unhurt tag?

[unhurt]hectic[/unhurt]

guess not

HURT: no one

im around now, skimmed the last few pages but nothing really jumps out at me.feeling a little lost now? still feel like my townreads are ok, anybody has anything they want me to say / answer i'm around now

kind of amusing that everybody else is noticing the same things i said about elements except now also scumreading me for them (?). lmao. beeboy doesn't ping me the same way but he also hasn'd said anything yet so i kinda want to talk to him. also maybe chara and catboi. and didn't redtea have something he wanted to ask me or was that oo long ago

This is Puppy giving up it seems

ok, the takeaway i got is that i'd be fine fighting elements i guess.

His fate is sealed. I'm not counting anything that happens past here as valid credit tbh.

Chara votes (althought it was already voting Elements), catboi votes and unvotes, Puppy votes, I vote and unvote, Pooky votes, I vote again, catboi votes again, and Prism hammers

So, I'm gonna say scum didn't push Hectic because no one joined. Puppy tried it and no one hopped on. I mean, had one single scum joined Puppy and Elements died anyway, that'd MAJORLY suck. I think had the Hectic wagon gotten a vote or two, the votes would have came aflowing did to beeboy's. But no votes came, so scum had to abandon it after it didn't work and people were mostly like "Let's just get Ele!"

Since no votes came, scum was kind of awkwardly caught out knowing Ele was gonna die so they couldn't really defend him. they should probably try to get some semblence of towncred here with a late bus. Third scum is super sad because now they have to one person army the rest of the game too, so they should probably get distanced from Puppy, too..

Not enough to eliminate Puppy on the next day though cause that'd be a disaster. Probably... hm.. suggest Elements is Chara, and then advocate for tayl0r being his partner. But don't have Puppy out of your sight either. That's probably the best gameplan they had at that point.

Scum would probably be someone who didn't include BOTH puppy and elements in their early scumreads, just one at most.

I think, overall, you fit the idea I have of scum better than Hectic. However, Hectic is free to put Puppy as his second best scumread if he knew he would flip to preferring redtea-Suji the next day (he could just forget about Puppy and make up confirm biassing stuff on redtea-Suji). I def see the point you're making there.

but like also Hectic was the only real counterwagon to Elements lmao

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ok but if Hectic was scum this would still play out the exact same way - Puppy would vote Hectic and then go back to Beeboy. It's not like there was anywhere else for Puppy to go because no other wagons were viable?

[Lavender]

Hey guys guys I’m really not that stupid ah ( ･᷄ὢ･᷅ )
If I was scum I wouldn’t forget something so important as a night kill alright!!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ok that's one we can cross off the list

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Lavendar I've missed you

can you help me find the bad guy?

Tweetie tells me I'm wrong about Hectic and I've been filled with dreadful doubt

[Prism]

MT, I think this post of mine might be of interest to you.

Keeping in mind that Isis announces the beeboy replace in the final post on page 29, I would really recommend looking at pages 30/31 as well.

[Prism]

Looks like you grabbed at least snippets of those pages already, my bad.

Also, I was the one with the Chara meta difference, not Hectic. I kind of grilled Hectic early because he walked into the same dumb pitfall he did last time.

[Prism]

I do think that specific timing is VERY relevant to both Puppy and Chara's posts, though, if you're not already looking at it from that angle

[Tanner]

re krazy's 3446: i'm not trying to "build a case on you around there being a no-kill". my point is that

someone

(most likely) made a fucky last night, and

everyone

here is saying "i wouldn't have made that mistake", so

it might as well

be you who made it

re prism's 3456: thank you, that is what i meant

re krazy's 3464: the issue is that my pushes and my reads don't necessarily correlate with each other. because at some point, when i realized everyone is defending puppy, a thought occurred to me: if i push this against consensus *anyway*, and puppy flips town, i'm dead tomorrow.

at no point did i understand On A Deeper Level why puppy was town. (other than the "he's not setting up for the next days" which was a brainfart on my part but anyway.) i understood that if i forced the flip there, and the flip was green, i was most likely gonna die today, and that is something i'd like to not happen.

Krazy because I don't think Puppy has the guts to pile his last scum-mate for an autolose gambiting that the replace-in is good or that the wagon will stall due to town paranoia - think he legit just wanted to get thru D2 at that point and escape.

i wanna point out that i think this should definitely not be clearing. at the time of puppy putting suji at F-2, it was clear that (1) spares are not happening, meaning puppy can't force a win or at the very least stay around to steer the game and (2) suji's slot, the one that will have to carry after day two, is in... bad shape. like sure, he's gambiting autoloss in that moment. but with the way the game is going for puppy/suji, he pretty much has to.

also (3) him dogpiling (haha) suji makes me more likely to defend that wagon so

should be almost time for tanner to start daydrinking again

prism, somehow you know exactly what i'm feeling as i read those posts.

ok, so what did i have to do. hectic's push on me and my reasons for ruling out suji/puppy as s/s?

so i just read the relevant parts of tanner/hectic dual-iso, and... nothing. his push on me early day two was after i started voting puppy, but the whole push was about my read on lavender day one, so... i don't think i'm getting anything AI from it. like, one part of me wants to say that hectic is scummy for pushing on me while i'm voting his supposedly second biggest scumread, and not even mentioning him, but like. idk. as i'm writing it out, it sounds fake as hell.

ok, i just ctrl+f "suji" in puppy's iso, i think i remember now why i was thinking those two are not s/s. will put it in a different post for clarity

[Tanner]

ok so there's two things that made me think suji/puppy being s/s is unlikely:

(1)

why do i feel like something is so very wrong with this (puppy) post... what was your thought process writing this (1426) post? especially paired with 1420?

like i get the feel 1420 is the "this is the post i'm going to point at post-townflip to show i wasn't on board with it for townpoints", while 1426 feels like shutting down valid reasons by which prism is correctly getting to town!suji... but does that make sense? who is his partner?? am i cherry-picking the most minuscule bullshit??? stay tuned

Spoiler: posts 1420, 1425, 1426

I feel like I'missing something, the discussion on the last few pages seems to assume that suji has to be scum

Is there anything to this or is this just wishful thinking? Lurker fatigue? I don't see a lot from that slot so I don't get why it's the center of discussion. Does everyone just townreads everyone else more?

This feels like you're missing that I'm the only one who is really still pushing anyone besides Sujimichi, and at times explicitly defending them. This game is whiteflag, so in the hypothetical world where Sujimichi flips Chara overnight, I probably need to go. Scum cannot afford to be fougt again, so the fact that no one else is a really pushing to look elsewhere says to me that Sujimichi is probably town. (Otherwise, their partner is making absolutely zero attempt to dodge autoloss)

1402 is a direct response to a question from Morning Tweet as to who would be Sujimichi's partner. I think reviewing the post through that lens it might make a lot more sense to you. Lavender+Suji is plausible as a team, but I say "God help us all" because both are literally impossible to get content from. Redtea is somewhat readable but Lavender is sa complete coinflip.

Re: potentially ruining the game, in the hypothetical world where I successfully argue to flip the fight from Sujimichi to someone else, say Tayl0r, and Suji flips Chara....This would be me arguing us out of mechanical autowin, and if I get misfought for it, would have cost us two misfights.

thanks prism! u win. don't share with anyone:

[removed image that was breaking spoiler tags]

i thought the fact that no one was pushing anyone but suji was a sign of late game apathy. is it not?

this was my thought process with these posts:

1420 is a soft-defense of the suji slot. but a soft-defense that realistically... doesn't really discourage anyone from voting there. it really reminded me of something i saw scum!puppy do before, which is go "why are we executing this (town) person again? i don't think they're scum lol idk" when it was very evident *why* everyone wants to murder that person - defending a misflip without losing the misflip, *and* getting towncred from defending a misflip

1425 is prism's post that says he thinks everyone pushing on suji is town!indicative for suji

1426 is where puppy changes his tune completely - he realized town!prism is correctly getting to town!suji, starts panicking because his misflip is escaping, so he's trying to bury prism's correct read ("nobody is pushing anyone but suji = suji town") by saying "well the reason nobody is pushing anyone else is because of apathy, right?"

like, it seemed like a scummy-contradictory "why is everyone pushing suji again?" and "this reason for suji being town is invalid" which really rung to me as "soft-defense of a townslot that won't actually discourage anyone"

note that puppy did respond to me about this in 1449, in which he was saying that prism is assuming it's suji?? which just made me think further he's purposefully trying to play dumb

(2)

??? Puppy I really think you need to revisit the last few pages from scratch. I'm not assuming it has to be Suji at all, I'm arguing the opposite and the last few pages of mine are all dedicated to speculating that it might be Tayl0r/Chara.

I reread and decided I didn't feel very strongly about it anymore. I was just reacting to what was at the top of the thread. Sorry w/e

Is there a case for lynching anyone or are we going on activity levels and the like? It seems to me like a suji slot lynch is as good as any other, I was just looking for some case to grab me. We nab scum today either way so the votes are just for bragging rights

prism, i think i understand your fixation on chara now because my fucking god i cannot

like this rings so fake because there is so much more to the case on suji other than "lol lurker" and this seems like this is the type of post that's meant to be "defending" a misflip before it happens while not actually trying to persuade anyone from not voting

like it almost feels like purposefully playing dumb?? i dunno???

but suji slot seemed so like scum, but i don't think they're partnered with puppy???? help

i think my quote is basically saying why i thought those two weren't s/s

---

however, here's the issue i have with my own reasoning here now, the same reason why i falsely cleared puppy down the line on day two: both (1) and (2) are assuming that puppy is the mafia, not the not-chara. them being s/s in that case makes no sense, as the whole point in those posts would be getting towncred for when town!suji flips, towncred that he's gonna use down the line.

but puppy flipped not-chara. i don't know what to think of these posts now, knowing that they were never meant to be used as a towncred farm.

and puppy's krazy vote was after all of this, meaning puppy was damn aware how much i thought he was scum, and how i thought he/krazy aren't s/s, and how i probably wouldn't touch that wagon with a ten foot pole once he jumped on it.

tldr: idk still kinda think it's krazy dunno lol. help.

[Tanner]

anyway, until further thinking, HURT: krazy.

also,

@mod, i've been voting to fight krazy for a while now

[Prism]

1) I really don't see why your interpretation is that it only works if Puppy is non-Chara. Your point seems to be that Puppy is trying to get a flip without attacking the slot too hard/leaving some plausible room for it to be scum if he flips (powershoving is clearing).

2) I think is just rolling with the MT/Hectic push of "well we can reconsider after, just flip em lol" school of thought

I think your tracethrough here is good, I just don't see the conclusion at the end at all

[Prism]

I will put together a single-post case on it at some point but my challenge to you is to skim the first 7 pages of the game and tell me who scum is.

[Tanner]

ok so i sat down to type up a reply, then mid-typing i realized i don't even know what stance i'm taking, i need to sleep more

my point was that puppy was defending a suji flip in a way that doesn't make anyone shy away from it while picking up towncred for defending it, which makes no sense if he's not-chara and is about to die anyway.

the similar thing with 2), it lets him jump on the wagon if needed, but it's showing he doesn't actually believe in it, which would be a tmi-y push, but like...

i feel like my brain is completely short-circuting right now. maybe i'm focusing too hard on ThE ToWnCrEd from defending town!suji this way. i'll get back to you when i'm not braindead.

also i skimmed the first 7 pages, and i got nothing. i think (?) you want me to say "chara" but i genuinely don't have pings anywhere.

[Lavender]

Lavendar I've missed you

can you help me find the bad guy?

Tweetie tells me I'm wrong about Hectic and I've been filled with dreadful doubt

It is possible that Hectic is bad guy, but I didn't see Tweet-san's counterarguement on why Hectic good?
I'm not sure why they think Krazy is good either, or maybe I skimmed right over their explanation ◍´Д‵◍

I keep posting and falling asleep, sorry Pooky-san (´๑•_•๑)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You need to come around more than once in a while Lav-Love,

very time I see you post it makes me a little bit happier ٩(◕‿◕｡)۶

I don't think you've ever posted a meme that's failed to make me smile. ＼(＾▽＾)／

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Btw I don't know if you saw the very cute story Isis-san wrote for us (*¯︶¯*):

Spoiler:

PookyTheMagicalBear tried to make his way across the flashing tiles. He walked a few paces, then saw a few red tiles, so he went left. After a few more paces, the green tiles narrowed until they were surrounded by red tiles and it was a dead end. Frustrated, he ran off to the right as fast as he could, but didn't notice a dark tile among an open span of green tiles and was warped back to start.
"No way!" PookyTheMagicalBear bemoaned.
"No way!" Lavender bemoaned.
Lavender was floating on the edge of the puzzle, not even trying to go. That's because she was still looking around for her orbs and was stressed out about not having them.
"Oh, Lavender. It makes me sad that you don't have your orbs. Let's help eachother. If you will be brave for me and go earn the Nice Cream to share with me, I'll find your orbs for you." PookyTheMagicalBear gently pushed her, causing her to float freely over tiles of any color and move towards Nahdia and the tasty Nice Cream cone.

[Lavender]

Uwah~~~
How cute!~ ヽ(>∀<☆)ノ

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Who is your top pick for being the bad-bad right now? (o˘◡˘o)

I'm just happy you are here again ʕ •ᴥ• ʔ

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Pls help us find the bad guy Lavender. (っ˘з(˘⌣˘ ) ♡

[Isis]

Ok I've done very few pagetop buffers this game, but I'm about to go afk and miss this one.