Gypyx's Mini Normal Review, October 2020

[Gypyx]

No it also doesn't really work...

Help me review persons

[Isis]

I find 24 kind of appealing actually

[Gypyx]

Then the mafia rolestopper would need to be replaced, how about by a 2-shot Simple Disloyal Watcher?

[Isis]

Multiple roles that punish solo scum is kind of swingy, but disloyal hider and Lazy are both comeback mechanisms for town. The backup roleblocker probably gets specced town pretty reliably so combined with the FN that is two clears which stabilizes this a lot compared to the original setup which doesn't clear much of anything if everyone misses and where everything sounds dubious (I think backup babysitter will get specced town less than backup roleblocker because backup roleblocker is a more helpful design building block).
I think this is a little more powerful for town than the original setup which FL said he was already coming around to. So I think it's fine? I'm somewhat accepting of somewhat scumsided stuff sometimes as a predisposition.

Some bitsy things: it's impossible for the Lazy player to run out of shots in games that don't have a bloodless night, I counted that up when I first saw the setup. When the two roles each had distinct strengths and weaknesses I thought that was fine since the shots still meaningfully restricted how much each ability gets used, but Motion Detector is inferior [most of the time, enough of the time round it up to all of the time] to tracker so it'd be preferable to gate only the more powerful role. So Town Lazy Motion Detector 2-shot Tracker.

Other bitsy thing: Two instances of informed on the JOAT is going to let imaginations run wild when the explanation is more pedestrian than it seems. I think it'd be preferable to move the informed modifier over to one of the other two mafia slots, preferably the rolestopper.

What makes you feel it "doesn't really work"?

pedit: Um, I'm not sure what's particularly wrong with the rolestopper, but I think a watcher is ok too.

[Flavor Leaf]

I actually like the setup on 24 a lot better than the original.

Are you referring to the Rolestopper needing to be replaced? I’m not sure you have to do so?

If town has a full blocker and a backup roleblocker, i think it’s totally fine for the Alien/Rolestopper to exist.

PEdit:
I’m happy Isis touched on the not needing to change Rolestopper if you don’t want to.

Yeah, I got unexpectedly busy yesterday, but I like where this setup has gone a lot.

[Gypyx]

I could just take down the personal modifier, yeah i'll do that

So :

Town Combined Friendly Neighbour Roleblocker
Town Backup Roleblocker
Town Roaming Detective
Town Lazy Odd-Night Tracker Even-Night Motion Detector
Town Disloyal Hider

Mafia Novice 1-shot Rolestopper
Mafia Night 1,2 JOAT (Neighborizer, Rolecop, Alien, Watcher, Activated Informed), knows that thier activated information tells them all the modifiers that town has
Mafia Informed (knows that the mafia JOAT's informed ability tells him all of the modifiers owned by town)

[Gypyx]

Just that the personal lost all it's purpose

[Isis]

Ah, right

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, I like it, and I think it’s pretty similar to your original concept.

I definitely think people are going to say it’s lean town, but there’s enough there on the scum side to fully take advantage. If scum can avoid Night Actions, they will be rewarded for it.

I’m happy with this, Isis, so if you don’t see any glaring issues, I’m happy to clear it.

[Flavor Leaf]

Then the mafia rolestopper would need to be replaced, how about by a 2-shot Simple Disloyal Watcher?

I prefer the rolestopper, as I think it gives scum more agency and security for a night, where as the simple disloyal just is able to hit vanillas. I believe there’s the watcher ability in the JOAT as well, if I’m not misremembering, so I just think the 1 shot Rolestop is really great for the setup.

[Flavor Leaf]

Then the mafia rolestopper would need to be replaced, how about by a 2-shot Simple Disloyal Watcher?

I prefer the rolestopper, as I think it gives scum more agency and security for a night, where as the simple disloyal just is able to hit vanillas. I believe there’s the watcher ability in the JOAT as well, if I’m not misremembering, so I just think the 1 shot Rolestop is really great for the setup.

[Gypyx]

Rolestopper it is then

[Gypyx]

I'll start pre-writing the role PM's by the way

[Isis]

yea /pass 30

A couple of these role PM may need some attention to precision with how they're written.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, let us see the Role PM’s, then once that’s all good, you’ll be good to go.

[Gypyx]

Town Combined Roleblocker Friendly Neighbour

Welcome ! You are a

Town Combined Roleblocker Friendly Neighbour

You may each night target a player, you will both

- make the moderator send a message to your target, confirming you as town
- prevent your target from taking any actions this night

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

FN message :

You know that [FRIENDLY NEIGHBOUR] is aligned with the

Town

Town Backup Roleblocker

Welcome ! You are a

Town Backup Roleblocker

If a roleblocker dies, you will become able to each night, target a player, that target will be prevented from taking any actions this night

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

Town Roaming Detective

Welcome ! You are a

Town Roaming Detective

You may each night, target a player that you haven't targeted yet, you will learn if your target has performed any killing actions yet

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

[TARGET] has performed a kill

[TARGET] didn't perform any kill

You didn't receive any result, your action failed

Town Lazy Odd-Night Tracker Even-Night Motion Detector

Welcome ! You are a

Town Lazy Odd-Night Tracker Even-Night Motion Detector

On odd-Nights (night 1,3,5...) you may target a player, you will learn who your targeted visited, if he visited anyone

On even-Nights (night 2,4,6...) you may target a player, you will learn if any actions were performed by or on your target

If there is only one anti-town player left, your actions will fail

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

[TARGET] visited [name of visisted]

[TARGET] didn't visit anyone

You detected motion on [TARGET]

You didn't detect any motion on [TARGET]

Town Disloyal Hider

Welcome ! You are a

Town Disloyal Hider

You may each night, target a player, you will hide behind that player, making you immune to kill directed at you, but you will die if your target is killed, your action will only be successful if it targets a player who isn't aligned with you

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

Vanilla Townie

Welcome ! You are a

Vanilla Townie

You have no other power than your voice and your vote

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

Mafia Novice 1-shot Rolestopper

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Novice 1-Shot Rolestopper

You are part of the mafia along with [PLAYER] and [PLAYER] You may talk in your factional chat here, you may also chose to perform the factional nightkill

You may once during the game, on any other night than night 1, target a player, any actions directed at your target will fail

You win if you wipe you the town, or if nothing can prevent this, you may find the game thread here

Mafia Night 1,2 JOAT (Neighborizer ; Rolecop ; Alien ; Watcher ; Activated informed)

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Night 1,2 JOAT (Neighborizer ; Rolecop ; Alien ; Watcher ; Activated informed)

You are part of the mafia along with [PLAYER] and [PLAYER] You may talk in your factional chat here, you may also chose to perform the factional nightkill

On night 1 and 2, you may perform any of the following 1-shot abilities
-Neighborize a player, your target will be added to your Neighborhood
-Rolecop a player, you will learn thier full role but not thier alignement
-Alien a player, they will be prevented from taking any actions and any actions targeting them will fail
-Watch a player, you will know the identity of everyone who has visited your target
-Receive information

You win if you wipe you the town, or if nothing can prevent this, you may find the game thread here

Results (oh god there's a lot)

You have successfully added [TARGET] to your neighborhood, you may find it [HERE]

You have been added to a neighborhood ! You may find it [HERE]

[TARGET] is a [ROLE OF THE TARGET]

[TARGET] has been visited by (list of visitors)

[TARGET] hasn't been visited by anyone

You know that town power owns the following modifiers, and only those

Backup
Combined
Disloyal
Even-Night
Lazy
Odd-Night
Roaming

Mafia Informed

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Informed

You are part of the mafia along with [PLAYER] and [PLAYER] You may talk in your factional chat here, you may also chose to perform the factional nightkill

You know that there is a mafia night 1,2 JOAT with an activated informed ability, this ability will tell him all the modifiers owned by town power roles, this information will be redacted upon your flip

You win if you wipe you the town, or if nothing can prevent this, you may find the game thread here

[Gypyx]

look at that absolute monster of a role PM for the mafia JOAT lmao

[Isis]

Without calling one spelling more correct than another, since the mafiascum wiki uses the American spelling for neighbour/neighbor, you should use the American spelling, because if an American player draws the role and claims using the British spelling and players find places Gypyx used the British spelling it confirms the FN town in a way that isn't particularly based on mafia.

[Gypyx]

Town Combined Roleblocker Friendly Neighbor

Welcome ! You are a

Town Combined Roleblocker Friendly Neighbor

You may each night target a player, you will both

- make the moderator send a message to your target, confirming you as town
- prevent your target from taking any actions this night

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

FN message :

You know that [FRIENDLY NEIGHBOR] is aligned with the

Town

Town Backup Roleblocker

Welcome ! You are a

Town Backup Roleblocker

If a roleblocker dies, you will become able to each night, target a player, that target will be prevented from taking any actions this night

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

Town Roaming Detective

Welcome ! You are a

Town Roaming Detective

You may each night, target a player that you haven't targeted yet, you will learn if your target has performed any killing actions yet

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

[TARGET] has performed a kill

[TARGET] didn't perform any kill

You didn't receive any result, your action failed

Town Lazy Odd-Night Tracker Even-Night Motion Detector

Welcome ! You are a

Town Lazy Odd-Night Tracker Even-Night Motion Detector

On odd-Nights (night 1,3,5...) you may target a player, you will learn who your targeted visited, if he visited anyone

On even-Nights (night 2,4,6...) you may target a player, you will learn if any actions were performed by or on your target

If there is only one anti-town player left, your actions will fail

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

[TARGET] visited [name of visisted]

[TARGET] didn't visit anyone

You detected motion on [TARGET]

You didn't detect any motion on [TARGET]

Town Disloyal Hider

Welcome ! You are a

Town Disloyal Hider

You may each night, target a player, you will hide behind that player, making you immune to kill directed at you, but you will die if your target is killed, your action will only be successful if it targets a player who isn't aligned with you

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

Vanilla Townie

Welcome ! You are a

Vanilla Townie

You have no other power than your voice and your vote

Your goal is to eleminate every threat to the town, you may find the game thread here

Mafia Novice 1-shot Rolestopper

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Novice 1-Shot Rolestopper

You are part of the mafia along with [PLAYER] and [PLAYER] You may talk in your factional chat here, you may also chose to perform the factional nightkill

You may once during the game, on any other night than night 1, target a player, any actions directed at your target will fail

You win if you wipe you the town, or if nothing can prevent this, you may find the game thread here

Mafia Night 1,2 JOAT (Neighborizer ; Rolecop ; Alien ; Watcher ; Activated informed)

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Night 1,2 JOAT (Neighborizer ; Rolecop ; Alien ; Watcher ; Activated informed)

You are part of the mafia along with [PLAYER] and [PLAYER] You may talk in your factional chat here, you may also chose to perform the factional nightkill

On night 1 and 2, you may perform any of the following 1-shot abilities
-Neighborize a player, your target will be added to your Neighborhood
-Rolecop a player, you will learn thier full role but not thier alignement
-Alien a player, they will be prevented from taking any actions and any actions targeting them will fail
-Watch a player, you will know the identity of everyone who has visited your target
-Receive information

You win if you wipe you the town, or if nothing can prevent this, you may find the game thread here

Results (oh god there's a lot)

You have successfully added [TARGET] to your neighborhood, you may find it [HERE]

You have been added to a neighborhood ! You may find it [HERE]

[TARGET] is a [ROLE OF THE TARGET]

[TARGET] has been visited by (list of visitors)

[TARGET] hasn't been visited by anyone

You know that town power owns the following modifiers, and only those

Backup
Combined
Disloyal
Even-Night
Lazy
Odd-Night
Roaming

Mafia Informed

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Informed

You are part of the mafia along with [PLAYER] and [PLAYER] You may talk in your factional chat here, you may also chose to perform the factional nightkill

You know that there is a mafia night 1,2 JOAT with an activated informed ability, this ability will tell him all the modifiers owned by town power roles, this information will be redacted upon your flip

You win if you wipe you the town, or if nothing can prevent this, you may find the game thread here

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s spelled ‘eliminate’, and I think you meant ‘wipe out’ instead of ‘wipe you the town’, but I believe action wise, everything is there.

Pass

[Isis]

The wiki for detective seems contradictory about how results should go for a player who attempted to perform a kill, but was unsuccessful. This setup has the possibility of a mafiosi trying to kill a hider but failing, and also getting roleblocked and failing, and I'm not sure those are treated the same actually, it maybe like how a tracker sees a doctor visiting an ascetic but failing to grant any blessings, but a tracker does not see a doctor who was roleblocked go anywhere. Your role PM contradicts the wiki but the wiki is contradicting itself so therefore any role PM would contradict the wiki and I need to ask FL, and if FL doesn't know we need to ask implo. And like maybe the wiki page could use an edit.

Sample role PM in the wiki: "you may investigate a player each night and discern whether that player has killed another player"
Also the wiki: "A positive result is returned from players that have actively killed another player, or attempted to kill another player but failed."
The answer very well might be that Gypyx's role PM is badass and needs to be pasted into the wiki over the wiki's previous one.

"Eliminate" is misspelled in the win condition of each town role PM, minor thing but good to clean up (anyone mentioning the misspelling as town is knowingly doing modkill-eligible behavior, but the british spelling thing can be unconscious which is why I'm more concerned about it)

The description for "Watch" suggests it could learn everyone who visited a target the entire game instead of just that night. Something that could only pose any issue for newbies.

Mafia Informed PM needs to say that the informed ability will tell "that player" or at least "them" what modifiers are in the game. Women and nonbinaries can roll scum.

There's a couple mispellings and typos in the scum role PMs but those are pretty immaterial.

pedit: Looks like I have quite a few more remarks than FL, but I'll take that to mean he understands your version of Detective to be most correct, which is fine.

[Flavor Leaf]

I always thought that if the kill didn’t go through, they didn’t kill. Attempted isn’t killing, I guess was my thought process on that.

And yeah, okay, those definitely are 2 separate things that isn’t clear in the wiki.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s probably something that needs to be confirmed in general, because that kind of thing definitely will come up from time to time.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gypx’s says Performed any, so even failed attempts on protectives would go through, but blocked ones like roleblocked, wouldn’t because then the action didn’t go through, so it wasn’t performed.

I made that more complicated than it needed to be.

[Isis]

yeah I think I will log into the wiki and change the sample role PM to be closer to Gypyx. I agree with that interpretation.

A detective would want to throw someone in jail if there's evidence the cultprit shot someone who got medical attention before bleeding out, right?