Mizzytastic's Large Normal Review, October 2020

[implosion]

/in to mod large, the worst quackup modding again

The Setup

15:4:1

Rolestopper
Role Watcher
Lazy Roleblocker
Novice Combined Doctor Tracker
Universal Backup
10* VT

Rolecop
1-shot Strongman
1-shot Ninja
1-shot Bulletproof

Non-consecutive Nights Commuter Serial Killer

The design ideas

My initial ideas were I wanted to run a large, I wanted a serial killer, and I wanted all the 'role' roles. I will be happy with pretty much any passing design that retains all these features.

I thought non-consecutive commuting gave the serial killer a more interesting choice for protecting themselves gameplay wise than some amount of bulletproof, and leaves the mafia strongman shot for town protection which there is quite a bit of.

The other mafia roles give the mafia some idea of what to expect out of the rest of the setup. I would be running all 3 as passives that fire the first time their condition is met so it gives the mafia an interesting decision of trying to preserve their shots for when they need them.

Mafia + SK can go back for town quickly. I felt like they needed an additional protective, and an investigative that interacted with the ninja, and I thought making them combined would create a powerful role the town need while giving interesting choices of who to target when you probably want to target different people with different parts of your role. The UB is likely to pick up a 'role' role and keep the focus on that design idea.

Possible changes

I'm still worried this game is a bit scumsided, but didn't want to cut down on the townies much more. I'd vastly prefer changes to be made to the UB or the doc-tracker, but am ok with losing the lazy on the rb if town just needs more power, or gating the 'role' roles if I'm wrong and it's too townsided. A particular place I'm worried is town perhaps not having enough investigatives/clears, and if you think it's best to keep as is and add more town power I'd consider a pair of masons or an activated IC over another night action. I'd initially considered a weak role for more investigation + protection, but thought there were enough kills going around as is.

For reducing strength on the mafia side, my ideas are make all the 1-shots into a single JOAT who has to choose if and when to use stuff or making the bulletproof into a traitor instead (maybe the mafia know the traitor is bulletproof to create wifom about any failed nightkills). I'm also ok with changing this to an X:3:1 setup but would prefer that was a last resort.

I think commuting is a neat take on SK protection but understand if it's not appropriate.

Stuff I need clarified

• Is there an NAR-correct answer on what happens if someone protects the bulletproof mafia. My take would be rolestopper first (cos it blocks everything), then bulletproof (it's a passive), then doc (it's an active)
  
• I don't know if the lazy rb should know how many scum to look for before lazy, or if the sk should be public knowledge in general
  
• I mention an activated IC in my possible changes. Would a UB inheriting from an activated IC be automatically confirmed, get to activate again, or the activation is like a one-shot and it's gone for good?

I'll get the role pms and stuff done when the setup is finished cos I just came off wrapping up my previous game. You can find that game here and a list of all the threads to see what my take on that stuff looks like here.

[implosion]

Primary: Flavor Leaf
Secondary: Ircher

[Mizzytastic]

Hey, just wanted to say in the game balance thread there's been discussion that predesigns get held to a higher standard of ensuring its something people want. I'm happy to be held to that standard for a better game.

Also ego

[Flavor Leaf]

I'll need some time to soak the setup in, but I don't love the Universal Backup side of things. Maybe I'm just biased against that role. The setup isn't like crazy or anything, I don't think many changes need to be made.

Role Watcher, does that mean it only watches for actions made, not factional like scum kill?

I like Activated IC, so maybe we can fit that in there. I think Universal Backup doesn't get to activate it again, it might just auto activate if the IC is activated? Ircher, what do you know about that? My thought process behind it is a 2-shot Cop who's used 1 shot and dies, only 1-shot Cop would be Backed Up because they used one, right? Activated IC should, in theory, be the same thing?

[Mizzytastic]

Role Watcher gets role names, instead of player names. It's listed as normal on the wiki but if that's inaccurate I'm happy to change it been as if it's not normal it's also not necessary for the initial design idea I had

[Mizzytastic]

UB was me trying to avoid town getting loads of night actions all at once cos that was a problem with hey first draft of my previous design. An activated IC + IC backup does sound interesting instead but I'd be worried about the two ungated protectives just keeping the IC alive or being a required use of the strongman shot or something. Maybe the rolestopper would need to be indecisive?

[Ircher]

Role Watcher gets role names, instead of player names. It's listed as normal on the wiki but if that's inaccurate I'm happy to change it been as if it's not normal it's also not necessary for the initial design idea I had

This is my understanding of the role as well.
---
Re: Universal Backup and Activated IC : I don't think I've seen that combination before, but your interpretation of the interaction seems reasonable. At the same time though, I feel the opposite interaction is also reasonable as Activated doesn't really seem to be a persistent effect. Take an Activated Bulletproof for instance. When they use their ability, they are bulletproof on that night, but on subsequent nights, they aren't bulletproof. A person who inherits Activated Bulletproof (without restrictions) can certainly activate it on a following night. The thing that makes activated IC a bit different is that further activations have no real effect. I think I personally lean towards the latter in that the inherited activated IC not being immediately revealed.
---
Another thing to be wary of with Universal Backups: If multiple roles die in a night, a choice needs to be made as to which role is inherited. The traditional choice according to the wiki is the mafia factional kill is prioritized; the main thing is to make a choice now during the review phase so the setup is deterministic.

[Ircher]

Also, in my experience, X-Shot Ninja and X-Shot Strongman are activated roles; that is, the user has to specify the exact night they wish to use their power. I'm not sure the passive "use when first relevant" variant is normal.

[Mizzytastic]

I was going with that order with the UB because that was on the wiki. Is that something that gets mentioned in the role pm (generalised to hide what multiple kills there can be of course) or just answered if the player asks?

Pedit: again, I'm going off the wiki here and it was unclear. I guess it's a bit stronger for the scum that way, but fairer for them to know it's gone. Am I right in understanding that a ninja or strongman shot applies for all the relevant abilities that night?

[Ircher]

I don't think you have to specify anything special in the role pm regarding the UB inheritance order. You just need to know how you are going to resolve it (rather than doing so randomly which is abnormal) and of course if someone asks.

[Flavor Leaf]

Role Watcher gets role names, instead of player names. It's listed as normal on the wiki but if that's inaccurate I'm happy to change it been as if it's not normal it's also not necessary for the initial design idea I had

I've just been away for a while, so some of the recently added stuff isn't ingrained in me as much as I'd like it to be. That's fine. It's a bit weaker than regular Watcher for sure.

Spoiler:

Role Watcher gets role names, instead of player names. It's listed as normal on the wiki but if that's inaccurate I'm happy to change it been as if it's not normal it's also not necessary for the initial design idea I had

This is my understanding of the role as well.
---
Re: Universal Backup and Activated IC : I don't think I've seen that combination before, but your interpretation of the interaction seems reasonable. At the same time though, I feel the opposite interaction is also reasonable as Activated doesn't really seem to be a persistent effect. Take an Activated Bulletproof for instance. When they use their ability, they are bulletproof on that night, but on subsequent nights, they aren't bulletproof. A person who inherits Activated Bulletproof (without restrictions) can certainly activate it on a following night. The thing that makes activated IC a bit different is that further activations have no real effect. I think I personally lean towards the latter in that the inherited activated IC not being immediately revealed.
---
Another thing to be wary of with Universal Backups: If multiple roles die in a night, a choice needs to be made as to which role is inherited. The traditional choice according to the wiki is the mafia factional kill is prioritized; the main thing is to make a choice now during the review phase so the setup is deterministic.

Yeah, I think it's okay to do it either way, but yes, on the UB, as long as you make the choice pre game, it's okay, that's just a design choice at that point.

I also don't know if scum should have a full Role Cop. It would honestly kinda suck to be Serial Killer and scum Role Cop catches him out because they're a full role cop. 1-shot Role Cop, to me, feels better with the setup, and essentially gives all of Scum 1-shot abilities, which I kind of like as a style.

You can also make the IC a Macho Activated Innocent Child, meaning they can't be protected from a night kill.

However, I believe Rolestopper still would stop a kill, since it's not protecting, it's nullifying, so that could actually be pretty cool synergy.

[Mizzytastic]

Role cop (and watcher) would just get the commuter part of the sk cos sk is alignment. Same way a plain sk is vanilla. I guess there is a world where town role watcher sees the sk kill (which they know is a kill cos commuter don't target), scum have role copped the sk and put two and two together but I'm not sure that's worthy making the role cop a one shot over? I guess it also makes it harder for sk to claim a vig. Maybe informing the sk that claiming vig in some way is risky is enough - two players from cross alignments catching the sk out by combing results seems reasonable to me?

Macho would work that way, wiki says it's specifically doctors and bodyguards.

[Flavor Leaf]

Blocker and Stopper are going to be able to cancel out each other and cause WIFOM.

Yeah, Macho Activated IC in place of one of those VT could be nice.

I think it's a solid setup.

Rolestopper
Role Watcher
Lazy Roleblocker
Novice Combined Doctor Tracker
Universal Backup
Macho Activated Innocent Child
9* VT

Rolecop
1-shot Strongman
1-shot Ninja
1-shot Bulletproof

Non-consecutive Nights Commuter Serial Killer


@Ircher - how are you feeling with this?

[Flavor Leaf]

I think it's slightly scum sided still if the SK wasn't in the game, but anticipating SK swing, I think scum can get screwed over, so they need a little bit, and I think this works pretty well.

[Mizzytastic]

If Ircher is OK with it too I'll get all the extra stuff up tomorrow (probably afternoon uk time)

[Ircher]

The setup looks okay to me; it might be a bit townsided based on comparisons to previously run large normals of a similar size. (Particularly, I'd say town has a lot of moderately strong/strong roles here. That said, mafia has some decent power as well.) If I were to make any changes, it would likely be weakening town some rather than strengthening the other factions. Maybe make the rolestopper X-Shot or some form of any-night-specific.

[Flavor Leaf]

2-shot for Rolestopper and Role Watched could work.

[Mizzytastic]

I like an odd night rolestopper to line up with the novice starting on night 2.

[Flavor Leaf]

that works as well, probably better.

[Mizzytastic]

I figured the role watcher was relatively weak so didn't need to gate it but if it had needed gating/modifying i had thought about making it loud

[Mizzytastic]

Though I'm not entirely sure how loud interacts with all the blocking floating around. I guess it just doesn't happen so no noise?

[Flavor Leaf]

Though I'm not entirely sure how loud interacts with all the blocking floating around. I guess it just doesn't happen so no noise?

it would just matter if the action went through or not. If it was blocked, the loud action wouldn't go through thus making it it so the receiver wouldn't get notified.

But I think full Role Watcher is fine. It is a low power role, so 2-shot Role Stopper is probably gated enough.

SK is just hard to account for balance wise, but I have modded a fair amount of multiball myself, and I think it's good to lean on the side of town strength in them because of the possible 2 deaths per night for town. Again, gated because of SK commuter ability, but I think it's in a solid spot and won't be able to mech clear the game based on the high number of VT's.

With the 2-shot Rolestopper, I'm happy to let the setup go once we get the Role PM's looked at.

[Mizzytastic]

Mafia Large Normal 2XX | Etymologies

A game of hidden roles and social deduction.

Modded by

Mizzytastic

. Backup modded by

the worst

. Reviewed for normalcy and balance by

Flavor Leaf

and

Ircher

---

In this game I will be sharing entries from one of my favourite sites etymonline.com, an etymology dictionary. Sometimes I will be sharing words related to the game of mafia (though obviously not relevant for determining what is going on in the game), sometimes I will go down rabbit holes of related words, sometimes I'll highlight words I know with interesting etymologies or relations and sometimes I'll just get curious about a word and post whatever I find.

game (n.)

c. 1200, from Old English

gamen

"joy, fun; game, amusement," common Germanic (cognates: Old Frisian

game

"joy, glee," Old Norse

gaman

"game, sport; pleasure, amusement," Old Saxon

gaman

, Old High German

gaman

"sport, merriment," Danish

gamen

, Swedish

gamman

"merriment"), said to be identical with Gothic

gaman

"participation, communion," from Proto-Germanic

*ga

- collective prefix +

*mann

"person," giving a sense of "people together."

The -

en

was lost perhaps through being mistaken for a suffix. Meaning "contest for success or superiority played according to rules" is first attested c. 1200 (of athletic contests, chess, backgammon). Especially "the sport of hunting, fishing, hawking, or fowling" (c. 1300), thus "wild animals caught for sport" (c. 1300), which is the

game

in

fair game

(see under

fair

(adj.)), also

gamey

. Meaning "number of points required to win a game" is from 1830.

Game plan

is 1941, from U.S. football;

game show

first attested 1961.

PLAYERS

1. 
   
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Spoiler: Alive

1. 
   
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Spoiler: Dead

No one

yet

Spoiler: Replacements

Spoiler: Spectators

Important Events

Night 0

:

Pregame

[Mizzytastic]

I'm trying a new format for my rules posts and would appreciate feedback at any point during the game via PM. Evolution of my rules/formatting has been inspired by Korina and Plotinus, and feedback from xofelf.

Golden Rule

Golden Rule

: If I think it counts it counts. Don't play around with edge cases then plead you didn't mean it to be interpreted that way.

Content and Etiquette

Site Rules

: Follow all site rules. Common mistakes are talking about ongoing games and discussing replacements, and playing to achieve your win condition.

Keep it civil

: This is a game where we get to call each other scum and manipulate and lie to others. Beyond that please keep it civil, I don't ever want to reach the point where I don't want to read the game I'm running. If you feel like a player has gone too far but hasn't stopped after you ask them to please contact me.

Don't use "lynch"

: In solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement the site is moving away from using the words "lynch" and "hang". If you are unsure of an alternative I suggest elimination, elim, E-1, ELo, MELo etc.

Readibility

: Everyone should be able to read your posts. This is an English language site so use English. Avoid using text

smaller than 75

. Don't use BBCode features in a way that makes your posts difficult to read.

Concealed messages

: Cryptography is not permitted. Steganography (hidden text/messages) is not permitted other than breadcrumming.

Provable randomness

: You are not permitted to use a provably random or pseudo-random (most computer generated random numbers) results in the game. Saying you did without showing the evidence is not provable and so permitted.

Communications and Private Threads

Other threads

: You may talk in any game threads you have access to at any time, unless specified elsewhere (e.g. the

Game Setup

post or your Role PM).

Private Notes Thread

: You may request a private note thread. You may post in that thread at any time.

Quoting

: Quoting this thread in this thread is always ok. You may quote this thread in other game related threads you have access to. You may not quote any other game related threads in this one. You may draft a post in a private notes thread, but copy and paste the content without quote tags. You may not quote any mod communications. Paraphrasing any of these things is ok, creating a fake quote is not.

Claiming mafia

: Part of paraphrasing mod communications is claiming roles. Claiming to be part of an anti-town faction is ok. Claiming your team mates, real or faked, is not.

Redactions

: The

Dead and Spectators Thread

will be released at the end of the game. Any other threads will be released 48 hours after game end, or when all players in them have said it is ok to release them. You can use that 48 hours to redact posts or request the thread isn't released.

Communicating with the mod

: If you want to VOTE: XXXX or UNVOTE: XXXX use the appropriate tags, I skim looking for those tags when doing a vote count and may miss it otherwise. If you want to get my attention for some other reason

bold

it or PM me, otherwise I may miss it and not answer.

Mod Colour

:

#8000FF

is my prefered colour. You can use it but don't

bold

it, or use it to imitate me.

Deadlines, Activity and V/LA

Pre-game

: The game is locked during pre-game and confirmation. Once all Role PMs have been sent people have 48 hours to reply via PM or the

Mafia Private Thread

with their role and alignment. The game will start after 16/20 players have confirmed or the 48 hours have passed, after which unconfirmed players will be replaced.

Day-time

: Day 1 lasts for 12 days (288 hours). Later days last for 10 days (240 hours). Once 10 or fewer players are alive deadlines will be reduced to 8 days (192 hours).

Night-time

: Night lasts for 48 hours. The game thread is locked during night. Night actions can be submitted by PM or the

Mafia Private Thread

. You will be reminded of any pending night actions 24 hours before night ends - this is not a prod. Night actions submitted after the deadline but before I process the results are forfeited.

Quick night

: If all living players request a quick night, I will resolve the night phase as soon as possible.

Prods and replacements

: You will be prodded after not posting for 48 hours, or 72 hours over the weekend or when

V/LA

. You will have 24 hours to post or be replaced. If you are prodded 3 times you will be replaced. If you repeatedly post close to prod timer or respond to prods without game advancing content I reserve the right to give you stricter activity requirements.

V/LA

: You can go Vacation/Low Access by requesting in thread, by PM or the option in your User Control Panel. If you are V/LA for longer than 72 hours with no expectation of access request a replacement instead. I reserve the right to seek a replacement if a player is V/LA for a long period of time.

Game Actions and Death

Voting

: You can vote for a player or a no elimination with VOTE: XXXX vote tags. If a majority is reached that player (or no one) will be eliminated and the game will enter twilight. If the deadline for the day is reached without a majority no one is eliminated. (

bolded

votes will be counted but I am very likely to miss them so please don't)

Twilight

: Twilight is the time period between a majority vote or deadline and me locking the thread. The voted player is not currently dead and may talk normally. Votes are no longer counted.

Death

: You are dead once I have revealed your role and alignment. You will gain access to the

Dead and Spectators Thread

. You may still post in a Private Notes Thread but not in any other game threads, not even a contentless BAH post.

Night Actions

: Night actions can be submitted by PM or the

Mafia Private Thread

. You will be reminded of any pending night actions 24 hours before night ends - this is not a prod.

[Mizzytastic]

Setup

Day talk

: If you are a member of a shared private thread you may talk there at any time, including the day, as long as you are alive, unless your Role PM says otherwise.

Action Resolution and Multitasking

: Actions are resolved according to Natural Action Resolution. If you have multiple night actions available you may only perform one unless your Role PM says otherwise.

Win Conditions

: Win conditions for

Town

and

Mafia

are as follows:

Town

: You win when all threats to the town are dead.

Mafia

: You win when all players not aligned with you are dead, or nothing can prevent that from happening.

Sample Roles

: Below are an example role for a

Vanilla Townie

and a

Mafia Goon

. At least 2 players are a Vanilla Townie. 1 or more players might be a Mafia Goon.

Vanilla Townie

You are a

Vanilla Townie

Each day you may talk in the game thread and vote on who to eliminate.

You win when all threats to the town are dead.

The game thread is

here

, please confirm your role and alignment via pm.

Mafia Goon

You are a

Mafia Goon

You form a

Mafia

family along with REDACTED.

Each day you may talk in the game thread and vote on who to eliminate.

Each night a member of your family may perform a factional kill. A member of your family will visit a player, and assuming no interference that player will die.

You win when all players not aligned with you are dead, or nothing can prevent that from happening.

The game thread is

here

and your Mafia private thread is REDACTED, please confirm your role and alignment via pm or your private thread.

Should I include a sample win con/role pm for a vanilla sk or just leave it unless someone asks? Alternatively should I just make a generic anti-town win con?