Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[davesaz]

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

See 750 and 752. I don't think she's actually trying to figure out alignments.

[davesaz]

The best type of pagetop, where you punch submit repeatedly until it takes.

[Something_Smart]

well yeah but you making similar points when you disagreed with someone else for it is contradictory, no?

No because of what I said in 972

Using it as the basis for a townread is materially different from using it as the basis to push back against someone else's scumread.

[lilith2013]

I should clarify though that I haven't read those same games, but more the concept that Lilith isn't either town or scum here

There seems to be a lot of "this could reasonably come from a town perspective" which is something we were frowning upon when Infinity was doing it earlier. The same should apply here.

We shouldn't have to perform yoga stretches to determine if something could come from a town perspective. I understand things can be NAI but this feels quite fence-sitty

he’s actually said very similar things about me in other games. He has like extra-paranoia about me? I think it’s a bit more town-indicative than not, but also I’ve never been town in a game with scum!SS so I don’t actually know how he’d approach me as scum.

[davesaz]

I agree there is a difference between "town" and "less likely to be scum than you think".

Almost nobody ever gets into the "town" category for me. In any game. Like people who are flipped and IC's. Because I'm never 100% sure of anyone's alignment but my own, ever. Other than when I have a result and it's mechanically impossible for the result to be wrong.

[Uncrowned]

Though, there is a difference between what he did and what I did-- he tried to say that DGB was towny because he could imagine her posts as coming from town, whereas I was just saying that lilith isn't scummy because I can imagine her posts as coming from town.

This feels like some mental gymnastics tbh

They're too similar to treat them as entirely different things

"imagining" or "thinking" something can come from a townie alignment is both what you both said in regards to the respective slots. Yes there's a difference between town and "not scummy" but in this situation you're both making a read

Even regarding what I said about you not taking stances, at the end of the day not taking a stance IS taking a stance, so claiming something is not scummy is still making the "read" that it is supposedly NAI, you are making a decision based off of you "imagining" it could come from town

[Uncrowned]

and the fact that you're debating this as though they're two entirely separate things (when i really don't think they are) is kinda off imo

[Something_Smart]

They're too similar to treat them as entirely different things

They're totally different! Suppose you saw a frog and said "That frog is green. Female frogs are green. Therefore, that frog is female."

There's a big difference between me saying "Well, male frogs are green too, so that frog is actually male" (what Infinity did) and me saying "Well, male frogs are green too, so we don't know whether it's male or female" (what I did).

[Something_Smart]

Yes there's a difference between town and "not scummy" but in this situation you're both making a read

I'm not making a read. I'm doing the exact opposite of that.

[davesaz]

It's the same thing Uncrowned didn't like about one of my posts. Logical people tend to be much more precise than non-logical, and it bothers the non-logicals.

[Uncrowned]

Here's the problem

We're playing a game where almost everything scum does will be an attempt to look town or as though they're coming from a town perspective

You CANT chalk up everything as NAI because it COULD HAVE come from a town perspective, which is what you've done for most of this game since I dont recall you having many reads

You can't discredit someone else's read and then expect yours to hold up when you're using the same point.

If we keep playing around the whole "could come from town" notion then we will get nowhere. It's meant to be a combination of if something is LIKELY to come from town combined with the rest of their play, which means reads, trajectories, voting analysis, the pushes they make and other things of that nature that you want to add in there.

From my POV it looks like you're taking everything and viewing it in a vacuum which yes, can work but if you do it too often you're going to miss out on the big picture

Some of liliths posting is inherently scummy and no amount of "oh but it could come from town" is going to make me think it's NAI

[davesaz]

Do you see PR's, VT's, and scum as 3 different classes of behavior?

[Uncrowned]

Yes there's a difference between town and "not scummy" but in this situation you're both making a read

I'm not making a read. I'm doing the exact opposite of that.

"Not making a read" on a post is essentially making a read. You're "reading" it as neutral.

Everything you see from other players that you file away as "townie" "neutral" or "scummy" all add up into your eventual read on that player

[Uncrowned]

Obviously PRs VTs and scum can classify separately but in this game lots of people have roles and we know draft order, so we know who is gonna have those roles.

[Something_Smart]

Re: 985: that is all true. And it's a problem I'm still working on. Of course what needs to be considered is what is probable, not what is possible (if you've ever seen mastina talk about her scum methods, she does a great job of explaining this).

That said, I'm not compelled to make a judgement on what's probable right away, and I usually prefer not to. I've found it's generally very hard to identify what's significantly more likely than random to come from scum, at least early on. As a result I focus much more heavily on townhunting than scumhunting on D1.

[Uncrowned]

It's the same thing Uncrowned didn't like about one of my posts. Logical people tend to be much more precise than non-logical, and it bothers the non-logicals.

Which post was this?

[Something_Smart]

"Not making a read" on a post is essentially making a read. You're "reading" it as neutral.

Sounds like a difference of terminology to me, but this also doesn't make much sense. Does that mean I'm constantly making neutral reads on everyone who I'm not currently talking about?

[Uncrowned]

May I ask what your townleans are then at least?

[petapan]

I should clarify though that I haven't read those same games, but more the concept that Lilith isn't either town or scum here

There seems to be a lot of "this could reasonably come from a town perspective" which is something we were frowning upon when Infinity was doing it earlier. The same should apply here.

We shouldn't have to perform yoga stretches to determine if something could come from a town perspective. I understand things can be NAI but this feels quite fence-sitty

he’s actually said very similar things about me in other games. He has like extra-paranoia about me? I think it’s a bit more town-indicative than not, but also I’ve never been town in a game with scum!SS so I don’t actually know how he’d approach me as scum.

weren't you talking about how well you can read him

[Uncrowned]

"Not making a read" on a post is essentially making a read. You're "reading" it as neutral.

Sounds like a difference of terminology to me, but this also doesn't make much sense. Does that mean I'm constantly making neutral reads on everyone who I'm not currently talking about?

I don't get how the last part is relevant and I also feel like this convo might be better suited for out of the game. Dont think it'll help town much at all atm.

Not a knock on your play btw it's just a difference in opinion

[lilith2013]

I mean I’ve locktowned him every time he’s been town, and when I read his games that I’m not in I read him correctly, but I’ve never been in a game with scum!SS so I’m talking specifically about how he would approach me. He knows literally all of that so I’d expect he would be trying really hard to play to how he thinks I think of him as town.

[davesaz]

It's the same thing Uncrowned didn't like about one of my posts. Logical people tend to be much more precise than non-logical, and it bothers the non-logicals.

Which post was this?

I was wrong, it was Infinity that didn't like one of my higher precision posts. See 720 and its predecessors. I made a comment about you in the reply which is what I associated to.

[davesaz]

I mean I’ve locktowned him every time he’s been town, and when I read his games that I’m not in I read him correctly, but I’ve never been in a game with scum!SS so I’m talking specifically about how he would approach me. He knows literally all of that so I’d expect he would be trying really hard to play to how he thinks I think of him as town.

Sorry this is far enough removed that I'm not sure what you're referring back to exactly.

[lilith2013]

that’s @peta’s 993

[davesaz]

Lol didn't expect it to be on this page. I need to reset my expectations.