Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[the worst]

vote count 2.08

Menalque (4)

: lilith2013, JacksonVirgo, Dunnstral, TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (4)

: Uncrowned, Best Bird, skitter30, Menalque

JacksonVirgo (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, Hoopla, Infinity 324

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

[davesaz]

When we compare a slot's post count to the mod's, remember to divide by 2.

[Menalque]

I'm gonna get this one

quack

vote count 2.08

Menalque (4)

: lilith2013, JacksonVirgo, Dunnstral, TheGoldenParadox

TheGoldenParadox (4)

: Uncrowned, Best Bird, skitter30, Menalque

JacksonVirgo (1)

: petapan

Not voting

: davesaz, Something_Smart, Hoopla, Infinity 324

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-13 13:00:00)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- skitter30 v/la fridays & saturdays
- quack

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

(1) I was, and still am, bothered by your assertion that my approach to DGB/infinity yesterday is/was scum!indicative for me. You know me as a player, you have, I think, one of the highest rates of games played with me of all users (along with like, ducky, icon, datisi etc) and particularly you've played against my scumgame more than once. I would expect you to know that I am as both alignments, but especially as scum, very self-aware (to the point I get SR for it as town on a semi-regular basis). Therefore, I'd expect you to know that I would know that moving off infinity onto DGB isn't like a "good look" for me when it comes to surface-level optics. Moving from one town (A) -> a different town (B) when you've been expressing a strong SR on (A) and talking about (B) being a compromise won't win you a lot of friends.

But scum!me would be aware of that, and as there was no pressing need for scum!me to eliminate DGB there, there was no reason for scum!me to look bad (even if only when it comes to surface-level optics, because I think the argument I'm making here is quite sound) when I could have been looking good by sticking to me infinity!scum read. It also would have set me up to push infinity easily today if I were scum.

If you were arguing that I could be scum who moved off to make the argument I'm making in the above paragraph (i.e. mena doing something that looks bad for him as scum isn't really clearing and he did vote to elim town in the end) that would be an argument I can see from town!you. What I'm really having issue with is that you think scum!me chooses to look bad at an optical level to arbitrarily eliminate one town over a different town.

Especially when we've explicitly talked about how we both plan, from D1, what the route to the win is and you know I'm very calculated in that way as scum. Why do something that hurts me for no gain? I don't get why you think scum!me would do that.

(2) I don't think you're linked "so strongly" although I talked about it a fair amount on D1 so I see why you had that impression. I think there is maybe some sort of relation between the two of you, but at this point I'm not sure what. Yesterday, I was thinking it was you covering for a buddy. Today, I'm thinking it may have been you white knighting for cred. I'm not sure. I think there's something there in you kind of providing some cover for him when other people brought him up, but I'm not sure exactly what that implies for your alignment. I'd just like it considered if/when I die.

(3) It sure felt like it, seeing as you entered voting for me, and then encouraged voting for me, and now I've been sitting at G-1 for a while with the only CW sort of starting to take off now. I'm aware of the unvotes. But like I said I'm also a little concerned that scum!you may have decided that if I was speedwagoned to death that you didn't want me to die pointing the finger at you. Which would mean that you're moving off me to now to damage control of our relationship in the bounds of this game/possibly to justify eliminating elsewhere today to bring me along later as GYLO bait or something.

(4) I would also like this, but as mentioned I have some reservations about your play (related to the reason you gave for SRing me, and what I think scum!you might do if you knew that someone was about to die while loudly calling you scum), and that's not something I can automatically quash or forget about. I will try to do my best to work with you, but I don't want to set town up to fail by incorrectly TRing you just because you backed off me a little and asked to work with me only for you to then flip on me later/NK me after I TR you and then use my (presumably in that circumstance incorrect) TRs to push misguillos on my PoE until you get to a win.

@ mena i said i would circle back to the above:
1. i guess i don't view scum!you as being that hyper-aware of optics. like you view that you are as scum, but i'm not sure i ever particularly associated 'scum!mena' with 'aware of optics' in the way you seem to think i have
like i just don't have a super strong expectation from scum!you in that arena either way

2. fair enough. i think you're seeing things that aren't there, tho. or, at least, you're making a thing out of me/infinity when similar associatives exist between me and other players (jv as i pointed out earlier) so this whole associtive that you're harping on is just kinda like ???? to me cuz i don't get why you're focusing on it

3. then you're ascribing to me more of a 'skitter wants mena to die' motivation than actually, like, exists. i haven't really been trying to get you limmed at any point in the day, and i've been markedly trying to avoid the wagon being at e-1, etc. closest is maybe when lilith explicitly outed the jk but i got skittish off of that fairly fast, and since then (i.e. since you started posting/reacting) p clearly have backed off

also if scum!me decides i want/need you limmed i'm gonna go all in, i'm not gonna be circuitious about it and keep hopping on and off as the whim takes me. i also wouldn't be *that* worried about your dying reads - who listens to those anyways? esp. of people limmed?
i think your assessment of what i'd do here is faulty ^

4. well i don't want to lim you anymore, and i'm kinda thinking you're town. if it takes u a while to see that, that's ok
i think i was just getting annoyed that you kept saying me/infinity when i ... don't get why you're making a thing of that so it's like your'e calling me scum for lol-???? reasons

[skitter30]

actually skitter seems to not be considering at all that you could have been the NK target

To be fair here I would never consider that either.

What I'm trying to say is that her mind went straight to "lilith must be lying" instead of like, the other 3 scenarios that mena and I were discussing which are imo more plausible (I mean obviously from my perspective I'm telling the truth, but I don't know why the second most likely scenario to skitter is that I'm lying?)

idk how else to explain it but the game literally doens't 'fit' or 'make sense' to me as town!lilith stopping scum!mena from makign the kill, and it's only a little better for town!lilith preventing a block on town!mena getting nk'd

like the game just doens't make super much sense to me in those scenarios

[skitter30]

there is nothing to say
my vote on dgb was because flipping a claimed pgo is protown not only because pgo is negative util but because it removes the possibility of a scum 1-shot vig being in the game so it didn't matter if dgb was a star player because mechanically their slot was proscum even if their claim was true (which it was)

my vote on mena is also mechanical because of lillith's claim

on the off chance mena flips town infinity is probably scum

i was voting hoopla because she is incredibly unlikely to be a PR and therefore a much better lim than anyone in the top half of the draft i have cased her ya know

this is awful, no offense

[Menalque]

(1) I would strongly suggest you take a look in my scum PTs if you're interested in that because I think they're fairly solid evidence (from me talking to my partners about what I'm doing and why) that I have a good grasp of optics. I think I generally have a good idea of how things are going to look superficially, and I think town often does base their decision making on those things. if you look at my most recent scumgame, I was very keen on killing saudade bc I knew that would point towards kerset (my buddy) and would allow me to get more credit from bussing him hard on the logic of "saudade has been killed therefore kerset is more likely to be scum" than if he was eliminated D1 where saudade would get all that cred and not me. It also meant that the slots who had been more tied to him on D1 (defending etc) would look worse and we could chain eliminate them for the win. So when I say 'optics' I mean I'm very aware of scum as to who will get cred and for what, and I intentionally manipulate that to benefit myself. I'm always hesitant to throw that away or to look 'bad' if I can possibly avoid it, because for the last several scum games I've had I've been the 'senior partner' so to speak, or the one taking the main role in planning and acting for the scumteam.

(2) I feel like I'm focusing on it at this point because it keeps getting brought up? like I brought it up a few times while talking about infinity on D1 bc I think you're a major threat IF scum, and I was very confident in my infinity scumread at the time, and so was concerned about being right and then getting ignored on you (possibly after eating the NK for my trouble). so I felt obliged to mention it slightly more to try and avoid the rest of town forgetting about it if I did die.

then you taking particular objection to it, and there being a lot of talk about infinity in general, has meant that it's kept coming up -- like, even here. I'm quite happy to shelve it until infinity's alignment is revealed, should that be the case, but in this case I think it was something you brought up again, so I addressed it in that long post, and now you're responding, and now I'm addressing it again... so it just keeps lingering on.

(3) I'm talking specifically about the start of the day, and I think I've very much acknowledged that you've done things like avoid keeping me at G-1 when that's benign you power, and I don't think I implied that you were still being like that at the time I made that post -- like, the first sentence is in past tense, I'm talking about my perception of your behaviour earlier today, not rn. if you wanted me dead rn you'd be pushing me/voting me, that much is clear

yeah, I'm aware that scum!you proooobably doesn't worry about me pointing the finger at you as I'm going down. I'm very aware that town tend to listen far too little to dead town in their games, and so most of the time you can just shitpush someone to death and even if they're like "uh, guys, you know this push is really awful right, pls make sure you eliminate this person tomorrow" >50% of the time town just like, forgets during the night phase. so basically, yeah, I think this is a reasonable argument for you to make -- my concern is that I also don't think scum you would take unnecessary exposure/risk without needing to. and I think you shitpushing me (unless you could get me quick flipped, which admittedly was possible) is something you might not wanna do because a big fight with me where I die yelling about how you're obvscum probably at least makes the game more difficult for you as time goes on and people maybe wonder why you're not dead and possibly refer back to me yelling about you being obvscum. so I can see you as scum choosing to take a softer tone with me, but still assuming I'm likely to die and wanting the benefit of me townreading you when I do

(4) I think I already addressed this in (2) tbh. I also *wasn't* calling you scum on D1, I was just talking about cases where you *could* be scum or would /likely/ be scum imo. I didn't actually think you were scum at the time, and the much bigger thing was you pushing me today for what I felt (and still feel somewhat) was a dubious reason that I was unconvinced town!you would push me for. I'm rethinking that now, but I'm still not townreading you exactly. It's like, you're coming across very townie, but your actions have worried me around that and I'm trying to decide if you really believe that I'm not hyperaware of my optics as scum or if this is BS that you're pulling on me. I'm doing my best to assume good faith but like the niggle is still there if you feel me

[Menalque]

I would lowkey feel better about it if it was less you and me talking about each other and more you and me trying to work out other slots together

although I do feel it was a necessary conversation, I just don't want to drag it on indefinitely

[Menalque]

what do you think of my broad pools skitt

what do you think of infinity today

[skitter30]

fair enough. i feel p good with my read on u rn, so i'm fine moving the convo elsewhere. any slots in particular u want me to talk about?

but if u want me to answer the long post more, at length, i can, but later tonight

pedit give me a sec

[skitter30]

Who’s solving/doing things

Me, skitt, S_S, uncrowned, dave, JV

Kinda the penguin, kinda lili

Who is not:

Hoopla, TGP, infinity, dunn

Kinda peta

does solving/doing things equate to town? or just mean you're not interested in them today?

[petapan]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I also just played with TGP and this is what I mean when I say they feel totally different here

i'm going over this and they read decently similarly? what are you seeing this game that's so different?

[Menalque]

Who’s solving/doing things

Me, skitt, S_S, uncrowned, dave, JV

Kinda the penguin, kinda lili

Who is not:

Hoopla, TGP, infinity, dunn

Kinda peta

does solving/doing things equate to town? or just mean you're not interested in them today?

basically, bar lil

I currently think all the scum is in (hoopla, TGP, infinity, dunn, peta, lili)

[skitter30]

what do you think of my broad pools skitt

what do you think of infinity today

infinity today isn't as good as yesterday, but i wouldn't call them scum
they had a few +++++town posts yesterday so i'm not super interested there yet

[Something_Smart]

Which ones?

[Menalque]

but narrowing that down isn't super easy

I think if TGP!scum -> increased equity on peta, but doesn't help with the 3rd other than I think hoopla's equity prob goes down

if infinity!scum maybe lilith scum equity goes up too

if peta!scum then I think hoopla's equity goes up (really gotta check this/keep better notes) because *someone* and I think it was him, said they tend towards bussing when scum and hoopla is one of the people he pushed on

[skitter30]

i'm kinda here:

town: ss, uncrowned, penguin
weaker town: mena, infinity, jv
nulltown: dave
nullscum: hoopla, peta
weaker scum: dunn
scum: lilith, tgp

probably not limming today for mechanical reasons: lilith

note: peta is like at first glance kinda scummy but i kinda gut think he's town anyways. idk where to put him on the chart exactly, i settled on nullscum but it doesn't like holistically capture my thoughts.

[Menalque]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I also just played with TGP and this is what I mean when I say they feel totally different here

i'm going over this and they read decently similarly? what are you seeing this game that's so different?

I think they were significantly more pro-active, less tunnel-y and more focused on sorting the PL in general, had a much more light-hearted tone, and were very interested in working with me

I also really hated their vote on me and the way they made it

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

jackson wagon was hot and new
lillith wagon was an rvs wagon based essentially solely on the fact that they were first in the PL

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

penguin you can call my takes bad but calling me scum for them is a terrible take yourself

You aren't scum for having bad takes, but penguin is?

and i kind of expect town!you to have good takes so the fact that you're attacking me (mislim bait) for pushing your interactions, especially your wagon hopping and hoopla interactions, feels really off to me

I think you saw 423 before you posted 424, and wanted to explain. But you pretended like you didn't see my response so it didn't look like you got caught.

Aside from that, this is just a scummy sequence of posts. I find scum more likely to say "I may be bad but not scum" since people don't like to admit they're wrong. "feels a little off" is way down in confidence from where you were just a second ago too.

tgp still probably town imo

don't agree with infinty 433 (the posts were within a minute of each other), but that is an argument that probably comes from town

It's 2 minutes, maybe I'm reading too much into this? Didn't like the posts anyway so

Mostly tone and the interaction with JV came off as extremely townie to me.

Interesting, I feel like scum can fake all-out aggression like that

most of my townread comes from these posts. in real time / in context they were absurdly town

[petapan]

not sure how i get classed as "kinda not doing things" compared to some of those people

[Menalque]

why is Dave in the weaker tier? I thought you were quite confident on him after his reaction yesterday at EoD

also, JV I'm kinda surprised isn't higher, I thought you were quite confident there

also, I don't disagree on the penguin, but what's making you put him up at around the top tier? same for S_S?

[Menalque]

not sure how i get classed as "kinda not doing things" compared to some of those people

hey, there's a reason you were in the kinda section! I would like to see more from you today tho

I feel like you haven't really done that much since D2 started

[Infinity 324]

skitter talk to me about s_s and penguin? I also had them as town but I was gonna re-evaluate because I can't remember super specific reasons why

[Menalque]

in real time / in context they were absurdly town

okay, why

[Menalque]

skitter, assuming I'm town, how much scum do you think opportunistically hops onto me for the perceived easy/fast elim