Death Curse

[Fidget]

Apologies if you are indeed town Fred, I didn't intend for that to be the hammer although I doubt I'd have moved my vote.

@Fidget I noticed you have been making a town core which is making me wary scum are forming a town core for each other and who wants to make friends with town, you have also been saying I am weird and you can't just only say that because that can be a good excuse for scum to call a player weird and your lack of engagement with me which is bothering me.

I'm the only player with a town core that bothers you? Don't think that's a trait exclusive to me.

I'm reading you as off or weird, yes. You see it as a lazy scumread (as scum might use), so lemme take the opportunity to actually quote what I find weird now and try to figure it out.

Spoiler:

I don't understand why Noraa is getting defensive here in this type of setup. Noraa if you were the first to be given the scroll wouldn't you give it to your scum read?

Taylor asking do scum have a daytalk I couldn't tell if this was a joke or not.

VOTE: Noraa

I'm busy at the moment and I'm multitasking. Noraa getting defensive is sus and it looks like she dug herself a hole here. Noraa votes me wanting me to have the scroll and I would most likely give it to her.

Noraa, your play makes no sense. You made a readlist and put Shelly, Vaultdweller, and Hopkirk as scum but you didn't vote them and instead you vote me for not voting and same thing can be said about you for not voting those 3 you listed earlier as scum. I don't mind getting the scroll since I've been busy lately and won't be able to put much effort.

I have read 20 pages since from where I last left off and I still haven't fully caught up. I'm still scum reading Noraa and I'm also scum reading Unowen because once when Noraa started to get defensive and all those votes piled up on her, Unowen says the wagon on Noraa looks promising and then randomly shaded me about my vote on Noraa which looked sus.

Early play is just "Noraa, Noraa, Noraa" which is fine I guess since I focused on her too.

You add in an extra scumread on UNOwen just because he suspected your vote on Noraa. I thought it looked like awkward bussing a tad bit especially with Noraa voting you back. That doesn't matter since I don't scumread Noraa now, though.

I saw on Noraa's recent reads list she put me as newbtown and I find this strange she still leaves her vote on me.

@Theta You never responded to #1658 and your theory looks really weird. shelly said on #347 Noraa hates bussing.

There's a pattern where your reads heavily tend to revolve around people voting you, or at the very least suspecting you.

Noraa's play has been confusing me and that 180 she did earlier on me when Toogeloo was holding the scroll was sus. Her post on #3942 about Hopkirk also looked like scum shading him. So from what I gathered, scum Noraa likes to put pressure on players and she has been doing that in this game and town Noraa doesn't put pressure.

VOTE: Noraa

This doesn't make any sense. I see this comes as a hop-on to a Noraa CW to Frederick's main wagon, which looks bad if I believe Fred to be red.

Town!Noraa doesn't put pressure. I don't get it. You believe that town!Noraa doesn't vote? That can't be it, because Noraa voted just a little ways back from this post. So I guess this read just makes no sense.

I have had some bad experience with meta and most of the time I don't focus on meta anymore. In my last micro game I played someone was getting town read for meta and that player turned out to be scum. I was getting scum read for meta and I was town. I have said earlier on why I scum read Noraa. That read list Noraa made when she put me as newbtown gave me a bit of a pause and I started wondering maybe Noraa could be town and if she was scum, I would have assumed she would continue on trying to get me eliminated and then later she did a 180 on me. On my first completed scum game I also made a read list and I didn't get coached. Noraa's play really has been confusing me.

Gloria gives you meta that suggests Noraa is town.

In response.. you throw out using meta as reasoning. Just after you used the insane "Town!Noraa doesn't pressure" meta as a reason to vote Noraa. Seems awfully cherry-picky. Gloria's meta is stronger (the emotional range stuff).

That's what I said earlier and Noraa is putting pressure in this game. I did not read her completed games and I only quickly skimmed 2 of her scum games and 2 of her town games to see what her votes looked like. In 2 of her scum games I quickly skimmed she used by the lines of, "I would like to put pressure or I will put some pressure on you." When I quickly skimmed through 2 of her town games to see what her votes looked like, she did not mention the word pressure when she placed her votes.

This is the kind of read I would expect from someone who swears by meta, not someone who has bad experience with it. It's crazy. Why must you vote Noraa so badly? This again comes as a response to Gloria pointing out why your evaluation of Noraa's meta is wrong.

Overall your Noraa read is crazy and very convenient in a Fred!scum world when she was the most promising counterwagon. There is something else I found weird about the people you were willing to shoot:

Spoiler:

Vaxkiller
Lapsa
Noraa
Fidget
UNOwen

This is your five you would shoot. All of your reads that aren't Noraa were essentially OMGUS, with Noraa also partially being OMGUS.

Vaxkiller's play makes no sense. Earlier he randomly votes me and then says Bell is shading but still leaves his vote on me. On #2509 Vaxkiller said he's glad he voted you but he never voted you and he lied. Lapsa's vote switch on me when a wagon started to build on Toogeloo during my absence looked sus.

I'm also scum reading Unowen because once when Noraa started to get defensive and all those votes piled up on her, Unowen says the wagon on Noraa looks promising and then randomly shaded me about my vote on Noraa which looked sus.

@Noraa There are some players who are suspecting us as scum buddies and if you really are town, then this makes me think scum are the ones who are trying to make it look like we are scum buddies when we are not. UNOwen and Fidget are the players that come up from the top of my head.

I don't find "Reads are weird, a bit inconsistent, and OMGUS-centric" quite damning so I am not yet willing to say I'm confident you are scum. If Fred is red I would shoot you in a heartbeat, though, because the Noraa read then makes sense.

And yeah, I am used to seeing you townslip so it's partly just weird for me not having you in the locktown bin for once.

[Bell]

Is this the "wall" you were referring to, Bell?

Yes. I started adding points from there.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Now I am convinced Adorable is scum.

HURT: Adorable

[Fidget]

Apologies if you are indeed town Fred, I didn't intend for that to be the hammer although I doubt I'd have moved my vote.

Meant this as in "apologies for reading you wrong", I want to be clear I'm not blaming you for my bad read, of course.

When I look at your town reads these are the players you put as town.

Bell, Mush, Pooky, Noraa, MurderCat, LL, Taylor, Gloria

List of players you put as poe

Fred, shelly, Titus, Adorable, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen

Fred said he is town and if I'm to look at your pov removing me on the list then the 5 team from your pov would be somewhere in

shelly, Titus, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen

You look a bit confident on your reads and the 6 players I listed above, which player would you remove and put on the town list?

I'm not crazy enough to believe I've got all the scum in there, so it'd probably be a bit pointless to just remove one player. Let me order my reads in intensity and see where that gets me, instead.

I would say Lady, Pooky, Mushy, and Noraa are my highest confidence townreads.
If Lady was willing to trash on town!Isis knowing fully well Isis was town correctly suspecting scum, I am astounded.
Mushy I trust is not able to give this much effort as scum as she and others have pointed out. I have not played with her before, though.
Pooky not playing at all how I'd expect him to. Not a perfect read but I seriously, seriously doubt we see this prickliness, unresponsiveness to scumreads, and the "Town is fucked I'm done here" attitude from him if he's scum.
Noraa is complicated and probably deserves her own post. I actually should review her before townlocking (I have noticed that Noraa has the ability to become globally townread as scum in a different game).

Below them lies Murdercat, Gloria, and Bell.
Quite like Gloria's posts, almost always seem to agree. I am not counting out the possibility she's a strong scum player but I like what I've been seeing.
Had strong reasons to townread them early, but they've been fading out from my mind.
Murdercat I believe is similar to Mushy with regards to scum meta, I'm not sure he would have taken the aggressive "Toog is scum NVM Vax is scum NVM Hopkirk is scum SHIT" stances D1 as scum. I think he is probably genuinely embarrassed and losing the willingness to play as hard. Pooky definitely not helping. I could be wrong and he's just acting that part though, so I cannot be certain yet. Probably should check the original reasons for townreading.
I finally witnessed a scum player getting exceptionally emotional recently. Should probably give Bell a more objective look in the future. For now still a townlean.

Below those tiers is mucky. Probably place Titus up a little as a sheep to people reading her as being on town meta.

I'm left with Taylor, shelly, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen, and Fred.
Talked about why I disliked Taylor/shelly here. I like some things and dislike some things about the two of them, so I feel more comfortable nailing them off of bad interactions with dead scum in conjunction with a scumread.
Haven't reviewed Theta/Flea/UNOwen really beyond checking Theta's Fred interactions and deeming her defense of him suspicious given the timing. I found it suspicious because she gave a blank defense of him when others were starting to voice their defenses of Fred.
Lapsa is Lapsa.

Overall, I'd go something like:
{Lady}
{Pooky, Noraa, Mushy}
{Gloria, Murdercat, Bell}
{Titus}
{Taylor, shellyc, Lapsa(DGB), Flea, UNOwen, Fred, Adorable}

And it was beautiful if Fred was scum. Oh, to answer your actual question: out of Laspa/Titus/Theta/shelly/Flea/UNOwen, I'd remove Titus, barely.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

If that question was not important, why did you ask me that. Also, I didn't cut your post. I literally used the Control+C and Control+V method to lift it from your post and even link the post to make it easily verifiable. Finally, that is your opinion of what it makes you look like and may or may not be mine.

1) you misrepped me. I remembered wrong. The post wasn't cut but you misrepped. I didn't say Taylor used it on me twice. I said if Taylor was scum here, she used it on me twice and I didn't think she was that dumb
2) I never asked you a question?

I didn't appreciate the incongruity of the post the first time I read it, but let me get this straight. You are not saying Tayl0r Swift used it on you twice. But you are saying Tayl0r Swift used it on you twice if she is scum and you didn't think she is that dumb which means you think she is town and she didn't use it on you twice.

I will follow this up with a second response to your response to my response to your response to my response to your response to my question.

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Apologies if you are indeed town Fred, I didn't intend for that to be the hammer although I doubt I'd have moved my vote.

Insert post 4918 by Adorable

...

It's ok. We all get it wrong sometimes. I still remember misreading shellyc in that newbie game (Newbie 2025)

[Fredrick A Campbell]

Insert post 4903 by Fredrick A Campbell

I asked you that which indirectly was saying she wouldn't do that but instead of answering, you decided to ask my question straight back to me.

What is this "same thing" she used on you "two times in a row"?

[shellyc]

It's ok. We all get it wrong sometimes. I still remember misreading shellyc in that newbie game (Newbie 2025)

There is a rule of thumb for reading me that has been verified and I'm sure many can back this up

if widely TR, scum; if broadly SR, town

[shellyc]

Now I am convinced Adorable is scum.

HURT: Adorable

fred why are you listening to the person that HAMMERED YOU?

do you TR fidget, if so, why?

[shellyc]

Bell I’m ready to have that convo.

@mod retract v/la, irl stuff got cleared up this afternoon.

[Gloria Cleary]

Spoiler:

why would I even care about being townread

the sooner i exit the better this game is depressingly boring. most people aren't even playing

Fair enough. I'll be sad if you are town Pooky.

VOTE: Pooky

I would be fine going this route since I am null on Pooky if it weren't for the fact that I actually have another scumread on another player that only Gloria Cleary seems to be taking seriously.

Tayl0r?

most of the town is apathetic

the scum are not interested in bussing

this game is over and I have no interest in putting extra effort into trying to push taylor swift given I've already tried and nobody cares

Pooky will you hand to me?

nah i'll give it to murdercat so I can talk shit to him in the dead thread after I flip green.

big true

one last chance for you to hit a scum on your way out otherwise Im gonna call you mister 0-4 forever

if MC is town we're basically doomed:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84640

@Fred, do you honestly think Pooky is ever scum here from these posts?

Yeah, Gloria Cleary, Tayl0r Swift is the one I was referring to there.

I don't see how anyone can say with any certainty that PookyTheMagicalBear is not scum from those posts.

By the way, that is not me saying I scumread PookyTheMagicalBear. I am more null on that player.

They are very clearly never buddies here and if you sr Tayl0r than shouldn’t you be tr or at least tl Pooky? All of those posts plus his posts on Titus and others. He is coming across like extremely frustrated town who has a solve that no one is listening to - one that you clearly seem to agree with btw. He was willing to die to take out his srs. He has been extremely straightforward about his position. Why does scum!Pooky rail about “scum”!Tayl0r for pages. How does that further any kind of scum agenda?

Precisely to make no one think he is scum with Tayl0r Swift.

I think you’re wrong. I don’t think this is scum theatre any more than I think LLD/Noraa was. Imo, actual scum distancing looks very different. It’s kind’ve hard to explain but you need to know what to look for. It generally looks faked and like scum theatre and Pooky didn’t start pushing Tayl0r until she started what appeared to him as her WK Noraa. In contrast, scum theatre more often than not usually happens in a context that generally doesn’t make logical or contextual sense.

Have a look at Newbie 2025 and see how well both of the members in the scum team distanced. They did it so well I used their attempt to distance as proof that they aren't aligned and lost the game for everyone.

I agree they did a great job at distancing but their interactions don’t resemble Pooky/Tayl0r or LLD/Noraa in THIS game.

[shellyc]

im seeing this as the solve aorn probably if town!fred
UNOwen - explained many times how this slot is obvscum
flea - feels like newbscum apathy in many posts, general consensus-y reads, trying to blend in which is really indicative of scum here
theta - has been in my poe since forever
one scum in {Noraa, taylor} - noraa's still pinging my scumdar with the weirdly fence-sitty posts, but taylor continuedly attacking pooky (who i believe to be town) doesn't sit right with me at all + I wanna sheep pooky a bit.
one scum between {adorable, fidget} - I'm not really following the "adorable is scum because they didn't townslip" from fidget. noraa/adora not s/s though.

outside chance of strong scum manipulating us, maybe in murdercat/bell. bell is a high priority reread and my SR there from d1 has been softened but bell leading on fred!town and asking everyone to sheep them seems like absurd confidence.

[Gloria Cleary]

id like to formally retract my fred townread

Aight, were you scum Fred?

the lack of a counterwagon kinda proves that fred was town.

Why did you townread me?

Why did you retract that townread?

The time for Tayl0r to do that 180 was BEFORE you were hammered. Doing that right after hammer and BEFORE flip is hella unusual

[shellyc]

gloria can you talk to me about bell? whats your read there?

[Gloria Cleary]

If that question was not important, why did you ask me that. Also, I didn't cut your post. I literally used the Control+C and Control+V method to lift it from your post and even link the post to make it easily verifiable. Finally, that is your opinion of what it makes you look like and may or may not be mine.

1) you misrepped me. I remembered wrong. The post wasn't cut but you misrepped. I didn't say Taylor used it on me twice. I said if Taylor was scum here, she used it on me twice and I didn't think she was that dumb
2) I never asked you a question?

Noraa, why would that be “dumb”? Why couldn’t it be smart? I mean whatever she is here, she’s doubling down on pushing one of the same players that she did in The Trials, that incidentally happens to be my strongest tr and it pings me that she continues to fight me on it. I don’t get a strong tr on a player without damned good reason and it concerns me that isn’t influencing her in the slightest.

[Gloria Cleary]

Shooting LLD is not terrible IMO

She’s hardly doing anything recently, so she’s pretty much become a non-factor, no? I still lean town on her. And scum is currently winning, so why would scum!LLD suddenly have lost interest in the game?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why would townLLD not care that the boat is sinking

[Gloria Cleary]

gloria can you talk to me about bell? whats your read there?

I think town? but it’s not on the level for me that Titus/Mush/Pooky are.

I’m still really sus on Tayl0r/Flea the most. I think Tayl0r fighting me so hard on Titus isn’t good at all. She’s not even considering my reasons for having such a strong read. Then her weird Fred reads and wanting to give the scroll to Noraa who she claims to hard tr. And her hedginess on Pooky is also not good. I’m once again doubting Fidget for not being more suspicious of Tayl0r. I kind’ve think Adorable could be an easy LHF push here for scum.
It’s probably town indicative for Fred though.

[Gloria Cleary]

Shooting LLD is not terrible IMO

She’s hardly doing anything recently, so she’s pretty much become a non-factor, no? I still lean town on her. And scum is currently winning, so why would scum!LLD suddenly have lost interest in the game?

why would townLLD not care that the boat is sinking

If this is directed to me then I don’t understand the question. If I’m reading you correctly, it looks like we’re on the same page with this?

[Gloria Cleary]

Spoiler:

Apologies if you are indeed town Fred, I didn't intend for that to be the hammer although I doubt I'd have moved my vote.

Meant this as in "apologies for reading you wrong", I want to be clear I'm not blaming you for my bad read, of course.

When I look at your town reads these are the players you put as town.

Bell, Mush, Pooky, Noraa, MurderCat, LL, Taylor, Gloria

List of players you put as poe

Fred, shelly, Titus, Adorable, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen

Fred said he is town and if I'm to look at your pov removing me on the list then the 5 team from your pov would be somewhere in

shelly, Titus, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen

You look a bit confident on your reads and the 6 players I listed above, which player would you remove and put on the town list?

I'm not crazy enough to believe I've got all the scum in there, so it'd probably be a bit pointless to just remove one player. Let me order my reads in intensity and see where that gets me, instead.

I would say Lady, Pooky, Mushy, and Noraa are my highest confidence townreads.
If Lady was willing to trash on town!Isis knowing fully well Isis was town correctly suspecting scum, I am astounded.
Mushy I trust is not able to give this much effort as scum as she and others have pointed out. I have not played with her before, though.
Pooky not playing at all how I'd expect him to. Not a perfect read but I seriously, seriously doubt we see this prickliness, unresponsiveness to scumreads, and the "Town is fucked I'm done here" attitude from him if he's scum.
Noraa is complicated and probably deserves her own post. I actually should review her before townlocking (I have noticed that Noraa has the ability to become globally townread as scum in a different game).

Below them lies Murdercat, Gloria, and Bell.
Quite like Gloria's posts, almost always seem to agree. I am not counting out the possibility she's a strong scum player but I like what I've been seeing.
Had strong reasons to townread them early, but they've been fading out from my mind.
Murdercat I believe is similar to Mushy with regards to scum meta, I'm not sure he would have taken the aggressive "Toog is scum NVM Vax is scum NVM Hopkirk is scum SHIT" stances D1 as scum. I think he is probably genuinely embarrassed and losing the willingness to play as hard. Pooky definitely not helping. I could be wrong and he's just acting that part though, so I cannot be certain yet. Probably should check the original reasons for townreading.
I finally witnessed a scum player getting exceptionally emotional recently. Should probably give Bell a more objective look in the future. For now still a townlean.

Below those tiers is mucky. Probably place Titus up a little as a sheep to people reading her as being on town meta.

I'm left with Taylor, shelly, Theta, Lapsa, Flea, UNOwen, and Fred.
Talked about why I disliked Taylor/shelly here. I like some things and dislike some things about the two of them, so I feel more comfortable nailing them off of bad interactions with dead scum in conjunction with a scumread.
Haven't reviewed Theta/Flea/UNOwen really beyond checking Theta's Fred interactions and deeming her defense of him suspicious given the timing. I found it suspicious because she gave a blank defense of him when others were starting to voice their defenses of Fred.
Lapsa is Lapsa.

Overall, I'd go something like:
{Lady}
{Pooky, Noraa, Mushy}
{Gloria, Murdercat, Bell}
{Titus}
{Taylor, shellyc, Lapsa(DGB), Flea, UNOwen, Fred, Adorable}

And it was beautiful if Fred was scum. Oh, to answer your actual question: out of Laspa/Titus/Theta/shelly/Flea/UNOwen, I'd remove Titus, barely.

Okay, I really like this post, I thought you were defending Tayl0r’s strange push on you which didn’t sit right with me but I think now, I probably just misread you.

I kind of like DGB’s entrance and them sheeping me in Tayl0r as well as their interactions with Pooky.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why would scumLLD do anything if town is currently self destructing lol.

[Flea The Magician]

Curious on your read on me Gloria

[Gloria Cleary]

why would scumLLD do anything if town is currently self destructing lol.

Yes, that is a valid point.

[Gloria Cleary]

Curious on your read on me Gloria

I didn’t like your readslist nor do I understand your thought process in making it. I also find it odd that a lurker suddenly comes out with one and then pretty much goes back to lurking. It kind of reads like coasting with a lamisty readslist to not look like your actually doing that. Why do you even bother to make one and include players you have no read on? It’s interesting that you’re finally reading my posts. Is my read on you the only thing that you can think of to comment on?

I should requote it but it just looked like there wasn’t much thought process put into that list.

[shellyc]

Okay, I really like this post, I thought you were defending Tayl0r’s strange push on you which didn’t sit right with me but I think now, I probably just misread you.

what exactly do you think is good/town!AI about that post you quoted? since imo its just quite a regular reads explanation wall