Smoke-Filled Antechamber [Endgame]

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Alisae needs to kill Tammy to win the game right?

But if Alisae kills Tammy before Tammy investigates Alisae, it will be Alisae-GF without invest results vs townies who have been cleared by Sane-Tammy Cop. What Alisae needs is for Tammy to invest Alisae - that's why Alisae no-kills and changes from mason to non-mason.

It also gives Tammy the extra night-invests so that Tammy checks Alisae.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You want me to believe they wasted a NK to prove you're a town doctor, while you are an actual doctor, and cornered themselves forcing you to protect the sane cop until end game for the WIFOM?

they didn't know I was a doctor when they no-killed.

Why would I no-kill and then claim a prot on Alisae and then bring them into endgame for 1v1? that's even crazier

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like I'm not a proven doctor

if I was a proven doctor you wouldn't be considering killing meeeee

[Alisae]

DGB do you understand that if I'm a suicide bomber as Alisae says - it would make no sense for me to claim doctor at F6 with a confirmed sane mason cop because this means the sane mason cop will just find me and I can't ever kill the sane mason cop right?

You're right, there are a few conditions that you need to meet to win the game with this play. I'm not going to entertain that it makes no sense anymore. From my POV, you're scum, its an event that happened, and I need to justify why you did it.

Let's address the "Why"
In my post I said it was a mistake but the thing is, in the moment of night 4, you were stuck.
- You couldn't kill Tammy.
- Killing me outs that we aren't lovers or masons.
- Killing anyone outside of {Me, Tammy} makes the claim look a lot more questionable. If I ever decide to out we're not mason lovers and anyone else is killed, that makes you look weird for saying you lied about being a doctor. While yes, you can argue the town motivation behind the fakeclaim, you have to deal with the risk that its might not be that well recieved and you go back into the PoE pool anyways.

BUT, if you could make your claim look better, maybe you have a chance to live longer and eventually you might find an opportunity to win the game.
It also delays your investigation a bit, but its enough time to be able to maybe find an opening.

I feel like that's satisfactory as to why, but now let's get into the conditions you need to actually win.

You need to identify who you bring into F3 and get there without being investigated. This is the easy part. Let's start at Night 5.
You lose against Nahdia; her read on you is just too natural for you to deal with and she would likely get in the way of you trying to lynch in the pool of investigated players. She has to go.
You will safely not get investigated this night for a few reasons.
- You claimed doctor. It doesn't make sense for the cop to investigate the doctor who if he is town, will likely die anyway.
- Tammy said who she was investigating and I think its pretty safe to say that she wouldn't lie herself because she doesn't like liars. You saw that based on how she handled me unclaiming lover masons.

We're now at F5 with Peta, Me, and Midway alive.
Ideally, you want to keep me alive as long as possible because I'm the uninvestigated player. As long as you take the other uninvestigated player into night 6, you can still win because of the 50-50 choice DGB has to make on who to investigate.
Midway is the most lynchable out of the clears so he has to go.

Get him out of the picture and me alive, you got to F3 without getting investigated, all that's left is to decide who to kill and build an F3 that you can win.
The reason why you killed Peta is because you lose the 1v1 against Peta. I don't feel like DGB would vote Peta over you in that gamestate.

Really, what the claim boils down to is why does Pooky ever need to make this play as doctor because if he actually is a doctor, he doesn't need a shield, he just needs to stay hidden.

Alisae and me are Lover-Doctor-Masons.

We protected Tammy last night.

The thing about asking for a private notes PT neighborhood was our crumb. :3

Simply by the existence of this post and this play, this level of reasoning is possible for me to deduce. What do you think DGB?

[Alisae]

Okay, who got to L-1 and actually had a chance to fall through with killing themselves?

well I tried a lot harder to kill myself. You kind of just posted a 1 liner.

I was ready to die yesterday as soon as Tammy/Peta were ok with it but then you got into that fight with Tammy and everything started falling apart.

Then wouldn't the responsibility be on you to make sure everything gets back on track? Or did me and Peta being greedy about wanting to kill Midway convince you that you didn't need to keep that sharade up anymore?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

BUT, if you could make your claim look better, maybe you have a chance to live longer and eventually you might find an opportunity to win the game.
It also delays your investigation a bit, but its enough time to be able to maybe find an opening.

Really, what the claim boils down to is why does Pooky ever need to make this play as doctor because if he actually is a doctor, he doesn't need a shield, he just needs to stay hidden.

These 2 lines are contradictory - in the first line you say me being a doctor makes my claim look better - whereas in the second line you say it doesn't make sense for me to make this play as a doctor.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Then wouldn't the responsibility be on you to make sure everything gets back on track? Or did me and Peta being greedy about wanting to kill Midway convince you that you didn't need to keep that sharade up anymore?

The entire point of self-sacrificing on D6 was to set up Midwaybear getting elimd on D7 because I 100% believed midwaybear was the last scum. If I'm being offered MidwayBear elim on D6 - why wouldn't I take it instead of hoping that the town follows my dead body to elim him on D7?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

The reason why you killed Peta is because you lose the 1v1 against Peta. I don't feel like DGB would vote Peta over you in that gamestate.

this is kind of the reason you killed peta over me.

You knew Peta was going to be way harder to push than me.

Besides literally everyone yesterday at twilight was like "it's got to be pooky" so it's pretty obv who you want as an opponent in F3.

[Alisae]

its not that powerful when scum have a godfather

I disagree and I generally think its not exactly understood how strong it is to deny a player from dieing.
If you save 2 players, that is 1 extra lynch and you have 2 extra players that are clear to boot as well.
It can snowball like crazy too if you're good enough.

You're value as a doctor doesn't just come from stopping kills.
You don't have to stop a kill to get value out of your role, you get value out of your role just by existing and making sure that 1 player will always be alive at the next day phase.

And when it works, its significantly harder to say that that person no killed then to say that another person is a godfather. Its a clear that goes beyond investigations.

When it comes to the godfather, it also scales into the game but it has the problem that it relies on teammates. A godfather cannot win in this setup by itself because it will eventually be found out and because of how well known the role is, its easy for townies to talk themselves into thinking that one might exist.

There's also problems with the claim in general that my post mostly just focuses on. If you look at what's already been flipped, your claim sticks out as a sore thumb because it has no reason to be here.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You will safely not get investigated this night for a few reasons.
- You claimed doctor. It doesn't make sense for the cop to investigate the doctor who if he is town, will likely die anyway.
- Tammy said who she was investigating and I think its pretty safe to say that she wouldn't lie herself because she doesn't like liars. You saw that based on how she handled me unclaiming lover masons.

I had no idea who tammy would investigate before I claimed doctor. there's no reason for tammy to not investigate me. She had 2 investigations out of 3 people. - I have only a 33% chance of not getting investigated and fake-claiming doctor basically forces me to take the chance Tammy will not investigated me AND I have to argue whoever she does investigate is GFather AND I have to leave a IC-Cop alive all the way into endgame.

The line of play where I fake-claim doctor makes absolutely no sense for me as scum to make.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

When it comes to the godfather, it also scales into the game but it has the problem that it relies on teammates. A godfather cannot win in this setup by itself because it will eventually be found out and because of how well known the role is, its easy for townies to talk themselves into thinking that one might exist.

how would a cop/doc pair find a godfather?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I disagree and I generally think its not exactly understood how strong it is to deny a player from dieing.
If you save 2 players, that is 1 extra lynch and you have 2 extra players that are clear to boot as well.
It can snowball like crazy too if you're good enough.

No because I was literally leashed to Tammy for all the night protections. I can't just wander off and protect somebody else to try to steal half an elim - if I get outguessed and mafia kills tammy, I am auto-elimd the next day and we lose both the IC-Cop and the Doctor.

[Alisae]

There is something that I caught on Day 4 which Bell posted.
The post is really huge, its 1417 if you want to take a look for it yourself, but in this post, posts in a spoiler to taylor who is a traitor
In post 1417, Bell wrote:
#1094: Pinged.
#1098: Okay.
#1099: Okay?
#1111: You sound like there's a terrorist with a gun to your head forcing you to play in 12 games just out of frame or something.
#1113: I don't!
#1125: Sure.
#1135: Wut? We went to a Halloween pumpkin tour thing. It was very pretty. My grandpa said his favorite part was the pumpkin 'Dinasnores.' which is my new favorite made up word.
#1214: What about the last few pages wasn't fun? I had fun.
This is important because if scum's team composition is just 3 suicide bombers and 1 traitor rolecop, then this is the best proof we have of this because this is Bell telling Taylor exactly what scum has.
This would mean that the scumteam already found their tratior.

can you explain why bell would ever want to signal to taylor that the scum team is three suicide bombers? I don't see why that information is relevant to Taylor.

You don't see how signalling to a rolecop that the scumteam is composed of suicide bombers is relevant for a rolecop?

--

like how do you even read "3 suicide bombers" out of "terrorist with a gun" anyway? This feels like a bit of a stretch.

I can see why he would crumb that so his Godfather could cite it later and try to show it's some sign that there is no Godfather in the game and there is three suicide bombers.

because the italian mafia isn't a terrorist group and terrorism involves explosions. You think things go boom when you think of terrorism.

But the level of foresight you are suggesting doesn't make sense because it requires Bell to predict how the game is played out on Day 1 without knowing any of the other major pieces of the setup that are at play. I don't think Taylor was even in any danger at that point. Its a lot more likely that he's signalling to taylor what their team composition is.

[Alisae]

I disagree and I generally think its not exactly understood how strong it is to deny a player from dieing.
If you save 2 players, that is 1 extra lynch and you have 2 extra players that are clear to boot as well.
It can snowball like crazy too if you're good enough.

No because I was literally leashed to Tammy for all the night protections. I can't just wander off and protect somebody else to try to steal half an elim - if I get outguessed and mafia kills tammy, I am auto-elimd the next day and we lose both the IC-Cop and the Doctor.

I don't expect you to. The post was mostly theory about how strong the role is in general.
My arguement is that due to how strong the role is, it stands out and wouldn't exist within the setup. If it did exist, it needs limitations but your role supposedly has no limitations.

[Alisae]

When it comes to the godfather, it also scales into the game but it has the problem that it relies on teammates. A godfather cannot win in this setup by itself because it will eventually be found out and because of how well known the role is, its easy for townies to talk themselves into thinking that one might exist.

how would a cop/doc pair find a godfather?

If everyone is clear, no one is clear.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You don't see how signalling to a rolecop that the scumteam is composed of suicide bombers is relevant for a rolecop?

--

If taylor investigates someone and gets a result "suicide bomber" do you think taylor will think this person is town?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

If everyone is clear, no one is clear.

except here we are at lylo and the cop has checked every day and not every1 is clear yet

[Alisae]

You will safely not get investigated this night for a few reasons.
- You claimed doctor. It doesn't make sense for the cop to investigate the doctor who if he is town, will likely die anyway.
- Tammy said who she was investigating and I think its pretty safe to say that she wouldn't lie herself because she doesn't like liars. You saw that based on how she handled me unclaiming lover masons.

I had no idea who tammy would investigate before I claimed doctor. there's no reason for tammy to not investigate me. She had 2 investigations out of 3 people. - I have only a 33% chance of not getting investigated and fake-claiming doctor basically forces me to take the chance Tammy will not investigated me AND I have to argue whoever she does investigate is GFather AND I have to leave a IC-Cop alive all the way into endgame.

The line of play where I fake-claim doctor makes absolutely no sense for me as scum to make.

you don't need to know before. She said so after.
Right here?
See
Look at it
its right here

If we no elim:

Pooky heals me.
I cop midwaybear -
Pooky should die

We go into tomorrow with 5 people. If midwaybear is red, we elim him tomorrow gg. If he's town, we elim Alisae. If Alisae is town then we know there's a godfather and they can resolve that in final three.

If Pooky is town and he is telling the truth (here) that he is a doctor and he healed Alisae last night when there was no kill, then midwaybear should come back red. It hasn't cost us anything or any time really. If we no elim, go into fast night where we all submit our actions quickly, we're looking at a quick turn around.

There's shenanigans if pooky's scum, but if he's town this should be easy. Unless godfather.

It doesn't make sense for Tammy to investigate you night 5. If she does and you die, then she wastes an investigation.

--

Also, there's another thing I want to mention.
During Day 5, I was pushing to eliminate one of me and midway.

NO ONE ADDRESSED WHY MY PLAN WAS BAD

and it still bothers to me.
You however were pushing to no eliminate.
See, the thing with my action is if we do eliminate on day 5, you cannot win and let me explain why.

Let's say we eliminate Midway on Day 5 and we go into night with 5 players.
You shoot Nahdia because you can't shoot Tammy, reducing the amount of players into night being 4.
Tammy gets an investigation on me or you. If its you we lose.
If she investigates me, we FTC and no lynch, she investigates you, you can't kill her.
You can kill Nahdia, Peta, or Me but Tammy will investigate you and that means you die if you die to cops.
You have no where to go.

[Alisae]

You can also claim Vanilla Townie.
Let's see how that plays out, let's say we lynch midway.

The next phase you shoot Tammy and this creates an F4 of Nahdia, Peta, You, and Me.
This means that the decision that DGB has to make in this gamestate is the exact same as the decision Peta and Nahdia have to make in a F4 where we are 1v1ing.

I actually think this is really funny but that might just be me, who knows tho.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you don't need to know before. She said so after.
Right here?
See
Look at it
its right here

Why wouldn't I need to know before? it makes no sense for me to lock myself into a doc-claim as scum who can be investigated.

[Alisae]

you don't need to know before. She said so after.
Right here?
See
Look at it
its right here

Why wouldn't I need to know before? it makes no sense for me to lock myself into a doc-claim as scum who can be investigated.

Why would a cop investigate the doc the night they claimed when they can potentially die? You're wasting an investigation and as a cop, you want to make the most out of your investigations.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Tammy has a 3 people uninvestigated and 2 investigations, there's no reason to think she would not use one of those investigations on me just because of a Doc-Claim that literally every living person was suspicious of.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You can also claim Vanilla Townie.
Let's see how that plays out, let's say we lynch midway.

The next phase you shoot Tammy and this creates an F4 of Nahdia, Peta, You, and Me.
This means that the decision that DGB has to make in this gamestate is the exact same as the decision Peta and Nahdia have to make in a F4 where we are 1v1ing.

I actually think this is really funny but that might just be me, who knows tho.

If I were scum I just claim VT and shoot Tammy. Why risk the whole doc-claim where I am leashed to Tammy and have no choice but to keep protecting her and she can flip my alignment at any time and kill me? That makes like no sense for me to do as scum.

[Alisae]

Here are the pictures of roses I promised.
I live near a Rose Garden and its a really nice place to hang out at, especially a night.
They might be hard to see though cause its so dark out.

Spoiler: Rose Garden

this fountain is also just really nice to look at as well

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Thanks. The roses are gorgeous . What a nice place to hang out.