Here's my wall addressing Ircher's samantha defense. some of it is directed to him, some of it isn't. I'll maker points where I'm asking him questions apparent. In addition I worked in partial reverse through the wallposts to ensure I was good about cutting out irrelevant parts and implementing extra quote tags where the needed to go.
(btw I had to fix a large amount of mangled BBCode.
@Ircher
, stop with the walls because your posts get broken when you do them apparently.)
So the first thing of note is actually that Ircher started interacting with samantha by throwing some softball questions at her, and then shifted to working with her and defending her with no visible impetus from sam, as well as never showing any actual progression from her beyond his initial null read that honestly looked like more of a scumread by the reasons posted. That actually does look quite bad for Ircher.
In post 316, Ircher wrote: In post 315, Tsunami Slayer wrote:Hello! It's been a while. Someone summarize the last like ten pages that way I can just skim it.
-Nornornornor
Samantha and I voted BEF for doing nothing/making excuses for not engaging in the thread. Everyone else decided to counterwagon Samantha. That covers like the last 5 pages.
Ircher's summary of the happenings here feels like he's trying to paint BEF and the people voting sam as the bad guys.
In post 324, Ircher wrote:
I'm gonna need you to let off on my buddy Samantha. Otherwise, you are doing great!
Not that I can find off unfortunately, but I still think it is worth pushing there. I don't really understand the counterwagon.
This post kinda seems like too blatant a defense of sam to be legit scum partners, with the fact he called her "my buddy samantha"? That very bold of Ircher if he's scum with her, and I don't think he's bold scum typically.
I had to dock off ALL of 335 because the BBCode errors were too fucking deeply rooted to be fixed. FOR FUCK SAKE IRCHER, PROOFREAD YOUR ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But diving into the content WITHOUT QUOTING THAT SHITHIVE OF A POST, there's a lot of blank questioning of samantha votes. That feels pretty damn hollow, especially he'd just expressed Samantha as a null read. Plus there was some buddying of samantha towards the end.
In post 340, Ircher wrote: In post 338, The Pelican Brief wrote:Scumpings from Ircher's defense of samantha and miscategorization (possibly misrep) of her wagon.
~Titus
I stand by my defense. Only Endless Terror has offerred any semblance of an explanation for why they are scumreading Samantha that goes beyond mere "scum!pings".
Again, being extremely adamant about defending samantha despite his read.
In post 664, Ircher wrote:
I can agree with being perhaps overzealous, but that by itself shouldn't be a reason to have an issue with me.
This seems a little overdefensive, I hadn't really put out feelings on what it meant for Ircher.
In post 664, Ircher wrote: In post 363, BrightEyedFish wrote:Can someone recap the last 10 pages?
Also, please update the list with any new CLAIMS MADE.
Seriously, don't be so lazy. It would help you a lot, both as town and scum.
In post 366, BrightEyedFish wrote:I mean a wise men once said that a BEF D1 wagon has scum at the helm.
It's been awhile since it's happened but maybe that sentiment still stands.
An anecdote is far from useful.
In post 664, Ircher wrote: In post 383, BrightEyedFish wrote: In post 380, Endless Terror wrote:Taylor townleans Ydrasse. For what it's worth they're my least-magnitude SR right now.
I feel like ydrasses defense in
277 contradicts with
368 poking at the claims list a bit
In the real time read I didn't see the contradiction, reading back now it feels off and not as genuine as in RT.
For having BEF in his "do not fade" list, Ircher sure seem to have a compulsion to pick at him.
In post 664, Ircher wrote:
In post 395, Ydrasse wrote:
it was, and i found that comment dumb because i don't see it as rolefishing at all when they're asking for roles that people have already outted at that point, but i don't find it as gross as the way that samantha interacted with bef in
251,
257, and
259. the last post especially has these like... weird vibes, like samantha has already written off bef entirely for what i find (at that point in the game) bad reason. it's flippant but i don't get why at all.
I see nothing wrong with
251. They clearly state why they wanted to switch the wagon to BrightEyedFish. Wanting to vote a player is by no means writing a player off.
257 perhaps doesn't come across as friendly, but it is an appropriate response to a question already answered once. Again, I don't see what you see.
259 is perhaps the worst as it is rather flippant (and I agree--chalking it up as a joke doesn't quite seem right), but when we look at it from a holistic view, it's still within the realm of reasonable, and it does not necessarily imply (though it may to some extent suggest) that samantha is unwilling to engage with BrightEyedFish. Furthermore, BrightEyedFish had yet to do anything at the time to encourage samantha to reconsider.
(Make it a habit, and it will come naturally. Start by signing when you first start making your post so that you do not forget later.)
In post 412, Ydrasse wrote:posted recently and posted non-fluff
and apparently that's why my eyes glaze over the tsunami slot because the nora-head posts a ton of it. 72's (i think it was his) posts are a lot better but they're drowned out by a ton of padding.
does noraa fluff a lot in general or is it skewed more towards one alignment? and even then, does she still try to provide a decent amount of content? there's some in there but it's scarce.
(This is a fair assessment of BrightEyedFish's more recent posts, but I would argue that despite not being "fluff", their recent posts aren't exactly "useful".)
Seriously, who the fuck asked?
In post 664, Ircher wrote: In post 464, The Pelican Brief wrote:The pushback on the samantha wagon but not the BEF wagon is noted. I want to specifically watch Ircher because his defense of Sam seems scummier than the wtf my pointless wagon isn't winning day one ala Gypyx.
This is rich; it's a real stretch to say that there has been very little pushback to the BEF wagon. In fact, I would say that the BEF counterwagon is exactly that: a pushback against the BEF wagon.
Does this even really matter? Eventually the two wagons duel for long enough the amount of pushback becomes rather equivalent imo.
In post 666, Ircher wrote: In post 482, The Pelican Brief wrote:1) Count how many mentions of people asking for additional reasons on the Sam wagon. I count all that as pushback.
I actually agree with the three slots you find pressure worthy right now.
2) Ircher's defense of Sam looks buddyish or whiteknighting. Not sure but it reeks.
1) I think I've counted maybe... two people ask for additional reasons? (Gamma and myself.) Regardless, the entire Samantha wagon is pushback against the BrightEyedFish wagon, so saying there has been virtually zero pushback against the BrightEyedFish wagon is still wrong.
2) Just going on record to say that I don't think this by itself it is a fair reason to scumread someone. You definitely have more to it than just this, and I expect you to elaborate.
Honestly these arguments about who is counterwagon to whom get really tiring after a little bit. It seems like a way to smokescreen more legitimate issues. And why isn't the second part enough to suspect someone
@Ircher
?
In post 666, Ircher wrote:
I mean, if we're being honest, I think the better question is why not?
Side note: if vax flips town this is pretty dang bad
In post 666, Ircher wrote: In post 514, samantha97 wrote:
"I didn't read the thread"
I think pelican's posts have been consistently illogical, regardless of which head is doing the posting. I was being really charitable before because of their role claim (like thinking taly really didn't understand a joke), but there's a tipping point. That said, it still doesn't make sense for us to vote for them today.
VOTE: NicoRobin
To a certain extent, I agree with the idea that Pelican's posts have been illogical. First, it was the Taly head, and more recently, the roles have reversed, and it is the Titus head that is being illogical.
I do think the NicoRobin vote here is rather bad, but it doesn't seem out of the realm of reason. I still don't think we should be considering fading this slot.
Not a fan of what essentially looks like discrediting of TPB. Also the rhetoric here seems overconfident about how much he doesn't want to lim sam.
In post 666, Ircher wrote: In post 550, samantha97 wrote:
first, thanks for the laugh
second, the reason why I didn't talk about being voted, and have no intention to beyond this, is because that's purely a distraction from my point of view (though I did answer questions because people kept asking stuff)
third, I read this game with noraa in it
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84118 where she was mafia and her tone is a lot different here
but you people know each other a lot better than I do, so if you think she's mafia then I'm fine with that; it'd be super cool if nico and thegoldenparadox would post more before the day is over though
I think the implicit defense of the Tsunami slot here is the most suspicious thing I've seen from samantha. A lot of other stuff can be chalked off to other factors that do not relate to the slot's alignment.
In post 666, Ircher wrote: In post 587, Ydrasse wrote:also i think that tsunami/vax + samantha are viable together due to samantha's lukewarm reaction to the wagon on tsunami
I do agree that if Tsunami flips scum, it's worth (for me anyway) reevaluating samantha's alignment.
Here Ircher expresses some doubt, but it seems pretty weak, and it's also contradictory to how he also expresses that he wasn't even properly defending samantha. If he wasn't actually townreading samantha why would he need to reconsider her?
In post 666, Ircher wrote: In post 598, Ydrasse wrote:
ircher's defense of samantha in
335 and
340, especially given that ircher called samantha null in
159; there's no progression there.
Yes, reads evolve. Anyway, I think the defense is less so based on samantha's posts so much as the justifications for the votes on samantha being very ???. One must be flexible and reactant to changing circumstances.
I didn't see any of that progression in your ISO though,
@Ircher
. Plus attacking the votes without expressly defending someone iirc is a decently common scum tactic.
Seems like you complied with this anyway
@Ircher
. Why?
In post 667, Ircher wrote:VOTE: Bell
Haven't really seen anything I liked from Bell, and I keep going back and forth on Pelican honestly. Sometimes, I think they are reaching and illogical scum. Other times, they seem decent/making strides to solving the game and are just misguided to an extent.
BEF and samantha are both currently in my "do not fade D1" category for various ~reasons~.
[/quote]
I don't like how Ircher tries to invoke "reasons" on samantha, what possible reasons could he have that necessitate such emphasis?
.
