Death Curse

[Gloria Cleary]

At the risk of interrupting Noraa, what did you think of how the setup played out Hectic? In theory, would you make any changes if you ran it again?
I thought I agreed with Isis that it might be a bit town sided. But the power of getting a wolf into the town block is evident.
Maybe the dayvig is actually a bit hard to use in practice?

I think it's a little townsided. It's too close to nightless and scum on average only get 2.66 nightkills (4 deaths * 2/3 chance to be first in first two passes). The vig sounds nice in theory, but if you use it super early to snipe an obvtown leader, you make it twice as difficult for 1 scum to win all the way down the line in final 5 (which turns into 4).

I think an adjustment in having scrolled players immediately treestumped, but only removed from the game and flipped upon the 3rd pass is good. It means scum win with parity slightly earlier in situations, and makes the dayvig a lot more versatile.

that is effectively what is already happening though i think

mechanically the scroll is a public vengekill by a treestumped player
if scum achieve parity but a vengekill by town still needs to be resolved
then scum do not automatically win then and there because they can still lose that parity due to the vengekill
the vengekill still needs to be resolved

No because they were still technically considered to be alive until flip. Treestumped means they can still post but they are already dead pre-flip, so huge difference imo.

[Gloria Cleary]

Locking this quickly.

The legend of the scroll came true. Thousands died due to its terrible curse, and the land was littered with corpses. But amidst the devastation, one girl in a cave was still alive. Miraculously, she survived the curse of the scroll and for some reason couldn't stop writing on it.

A win condition has been achieved! Noraa,

Self-Aligned Hyperposter

, has won postgame!

Role PM

Welcome,

Noraa

. You are a

Self-Aligned Hyperposter

!

Win condition:

• You win when your post count exceeds 1500 in the game thread before it is locked.

Game thread is here. Please confirm by telling me your alignment, any partner's names, and acknowledging that the mafia has daytalk.

PEdit: hectic ur a meanie

lmaooo

[Theta Alpine]

At the risk of interrupting Noraa, what did you think of how the setup played out Hectic? In theory, would you make any changes if you ran it again?
I thought I agreed with Isis that it might be a bit town sided. But the power of getting a wolf into the town block is evident.
Maybe the dayvig is actually a bit hard to use in practice?

I think it's a little townsided. It's too close to nightless and scum on average only get 2.66 nightkills (4 deaths * 2/3 chance to be first in first two passes). The vig sounds nice in theory, but if you use it super early to snipe an obvtown leader, you make it twice as difficult for 1 scum to win all the way down the line in final 5 (which turns into 4).

I think an adjustment in having scrolled players immediately treestumped, but only removed from the game and flipped upon the 3rd pass is good. It means scum win with parity slightly earlier in situations, and makes the dayvig a lot more versatile.

that is effectively what is already happening though i think

mechanically the scroll is a public vengekill by a treestumped player
if scum achieve parity but a vengekill by town still needs to be resolved
then scum do not automatically win then and there because they can still lose that parity due to the vengekill
the vengekill still needs to be resolved

No because they were still technically considered to be alive until flip. Treestumped means they can still post but they are already dead pre-flip, so huge difference imo.

there is not a difference though
scum only automatically win if there is no way for them to lose short of purposefully throwing
in a situation where they have parity but a vengekill by town still needs to be resolved
then they can still lose if the vengekill hits scum

[Infinity 324]

This isn’t really an issue, you can just have a rule specifically addressing this case.

[Bell]

I want to hear your take on me at least

Sure.

So, I'll just continue with the narrative I was thinking about in which you were indolent town. You quickly got town read and proceeded to slow down because of (to me anyone) a certain level of even-handedness when communicating with anyone and confident tone.
You seemed comfortable when interacting with Shelly but were relatively up front with your reads. You also tended to be very responsive to whatever was happening in game.
You tended to lean on people you felt were town and I saw that which made it easier to read you.
I almost town locked you when you said you weren't going to give a reads list given your positioning being so secure since scum rarely ever feel that way.

Ultimately, you were relatively good at seeming townie to me (Other players in dead thread disagreed, but meh)

Sometimes you seemed to make obtuse statements that could come back to bite you if someone came away with the wrong context. You also tended not to interact with players that were lurking. You had questions but I was never quite sure if these questions would work out. It might have been a better approach to test Noraa rather than asking her to embrace the sweetness of death. I don't think it was wrong that you tended to stay out of the way of people's pushes on others. I think you used meta well to an extent linking games and not going too crazy with your reads based on that meta. Acknowledging you could be wrong naturally weakens the argument, but I prefer arguments made this way than "X is totally scum, let's get em."

I think in elo you were a little wobbly and that extended the game some. I don't think it was wrong to push and see what happened but there was a pretty big incongruity to pushing me in elo in this way.
Pookie could do it because he had the vote, but you didn't which made me have to choose between opportunism and fake pushing. It took awhile to recognize your perspective and attitude in elo in part because I don't think you properly explained your mindset in there, I'm not sure if that would've helped, but it would have helped me not hesitate as much. Early game play hurt you here, since you ultimately compromised instead of pushing your strongest scum read. Early.

I liked your sense of humor throughout the game. I appreciated your meta defense of yourself, but I think sometimes you didn't realize which of your own posts put you in a better light than Noraa.
I think you were slightly more proactive and good at weakening Noraa's position throughout elo. Never really falling behind her.

I don't really know what analysis I should give on your hunting that's a complex topic. I guess it just needs to be a little more attuned to how scum play and communicate.
There's more I could say, but I don't feel confident saying it and also, tired.

Overall, good job imo.

[Gloria Cleary]

If you won’t be too harsh, you can do me. *ducks*

[MURDERCAT]

Wow what an awesome post Bell thank you for writing all that

[Bell]

I think you know what you did tho.

You reached too fair with indicators that weren't necessarily reliable.
I think while it's good to have fun, asking for the scroll after obv towning it up for most of us was just really awkward and upsetting it went against our win conditions.
You asked us to trust you, but that trust was misplaced. Trust is just something you earn not something you can demand.
But everybody knows that.

Too harsh?

[Bell]

Your strength is being able to brawl, engage with others and make your points and have people follow them. I never felt like I didn't understand you either so your communication was good.

[Bell]

Noraa messaged me and funnily enough I feel like she just has a lot of strengths and weaknesses so it's easier to talk about.

Her ability to emulate emotion and predict how she should feel and at when in a position that isn't really hers is great.
She also often responded to how people were criticizing her play in real time. She would often times start immediately acting out what people expected to see immediately after they said it.
It was subtle, but it was there.

Her mafia thread strategizing in her PT was good too she seemed to have a good idea of who threatened her position and who didn't.
Great gifs btw.

the not so good.
Stuff she needs to work on is knowing the opportune time to aTe and when people are going to respond to it and when they aren't going to respond to it.
Knowing what you should be doing each phase of the game to fake appearing town is important. Not having a good fake solving game day 1 is fine you can get away with that.
Not having a good one in elo, drawing up very not scummy quotes and calling them scummy was a mistake. You also sometimes said things that were blatant positioning or didn't make sense from your own perspetive. You make sense when you talk in emotions, but you make no sense when you aren't pulling on the heart strings I think it would be a good idea to shore up this part of you.
You also need better timing on your deception and you need some level of subtlety.

Lot of this is gunna get fixed with experience though.
Didn't directly engage with accusations against yourself or misinterpreted them. Whatever case made against you ias town aren't true, but some of the things others did might be. Blanket denials aren't going to work on what other people did. You can only interpret and try to understand the perspective of others and play to it by creating plausible narratives. But you have to start with they've got it wrong and are they scum pushing me for it? And not "That's not true, X which is right in front of me absolutely did not happen" depends on what you're denying though.

*cough* sorry for being harsh with you in game about your elo play. There were just a lot of holes and it was my towards my win condition to frame and point them out.

[Gloria Cleary]

I think you know what you did tho.

You reached too fair with indicators that weren't necessarily reliable.
I think while it's good to have fun, asking for the scroll after obv towning it up for most of us was just really awkward and upsetting it went against our win conditions.
You asked us to trust you, but that trust was misplaced. Trust is just something you earn not something you can demand.
But everybody knows that.

Too harsh?

You mean with the scroll? I didn’t actually want it at that time, I actually wanted Flea to give it to Owno over Fidget. All were wrong obviously because Noraa was the scum. I was very wrong about Titus but I had other good reads. Do you mean that?

Well, it’s like that Princess Bride video, you try the best you can. I might definitely had been over my head though?

No it’s fine. I asked for it afterall.

[Gloria Cleary]

Your strength is being able to brawl, engage with others and make your points and have people follow them. I never felt like I didn't understand you either so your communication was good.

Awesome.

[Bell]

In other words, you're great at putting out fires with AtE, but you're going to be perpetually kept busy for every new incongruity you create. The less question marks, the less you gotta work.

[Nero Cain]

DO ME, BELL!

[Bell]

You're the best!

[shellyc]

Do you make your quotes by hand shelly? How did that happen?

i dont

so noraa told me to post that post about taylor
i took the quotes but forgot to remove the scum pt quote layer

[MURDERCAT]

This game really had it all

[Fidget]

Ahem, I wanted to say I reread a little bit of the thread and this post warmed my heart:

No, she isn't.

<3

I'm glad

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I'd love to see a Bell post-mortem on me.


Also! I think Theta might be on to something in adding, say, 3 townies, but every red flip gives the scumteam another dayvig. Good for flavor, too. I think it ends up making the setup even swingier in the end though, where right now it's townsided but otherwise fairly stable mechanically.

Thinking on other solutions, I see room to adjust rules of scroll passing to more strongly empower early players in the scroll-passing order. Maybe I'll find you on Discord, Hectic, and talk at you about my setup ideas, and we can see what happens. PM me if you're up for that discussion -- my game design history is in videogames, but I think we could figure something out.

[Fidget]

I would be thrilled to see Bell's post-game thoughts for me. If there are any, anyways.

[Bell]

Sure.
Tomorrow if Thread's still open.

[Lapsa]

Postponed flips would help with no info play absence issue.

Lots of layers but proper hinting might get through and be worth it.

[Vaxkiller]

Great game nora, great game all!

Big ole sorry for handing you the scroll Hopkirk. I should not have played the "what if" game and and over complicated things in my head.

[Theta Alpine]

I'd love to see a Bell post-mortem on me.


Also! I think Theta might be on to something in adding, say, 3 townies, but every red flip gives the scumteam another dayvig. Good for flavor, too. I think it ends up making the setup even swingier in the end though, where right now it's townsided but otherwise fairly stable mechanically.

Thinking on other solutions, I see room to adjust rules of scroll passing to more strongly empower early players in the scroll-passing order. Maybe I'll find you on Discord, Hectic, and talk at you about my setup ideas, and we can see what happens. PM me if you're up for that discussion -- my game design history is in videogames, but I think we could figure something out.

the point was definitely to make it more swingy

it also gives scum several different strategies they could use regarding the dayvig
and the ability to feel like they can actually use the dayvig before the end hopefully
it might need a maximum cap on the number of dayvigs they can hold at once just to prevent it from being too swingy but i would need to go through the various scenarios quite a bit to figure out if that would be necessary

[Gloria Cleary]

Subject: Death Curse Mafia PT

Stop bussing me, Noraa, I'm not even in the game.

lmfaoooo