976: mystyry box of sylvyr I: isis game. day 3

[schadd_]

Spoiler:

final vote count

Akarin (3):

SKYEscrapers, mastina, Gypyx

mastina (1):

Dunnstral

not voting (1):

Akarin

with 5 alive, it took 3 to Heave someone into Hell.

[mastina]

I

hate

being treated like I couldn't have possibly had any valid reason for scumreading you just because I hadn't been able to put it into compelling words yet.

Fair, but from the sound of things it looked like the areas you were going to attack were not the actual areas to attack.

There were genuine reasons to scumread me, but the logic I presented were not among them since that is, inherently, the same logical thought process I display when I am town. If you attacked the logic I was using, then I can tell you it wouldn't have worked, but if you did have an actual good angle of attack (because you didn't get the chance to present it, no way to know if you had it or not, but I do fully admit there were legit angles of attack), it might have.

[Akarin]

So if the logic was perfect, that means that logically Dunn and I were obvscum here and you were town.

[mastina]

So if the logic was perfect, that means that logically Dunn and I were obvscum here and you were town.

Well before schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim as town...kinda sorta, yes.

After schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim tho, admittedly yes, the logic was proven flawed.

[schadd_]

akarin was intentionally injured! she was a town novice invéstigatoire

dunnstral was endgamed! he was a town neighbor loud odd-night alien
skyescrapers were endgamed! they were a town 1-shot alien

mastina & gypyx win! (mafia combined tracker/doctor and mafia confidant)

[schadd_]

mod thrad https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=84546

[MathBlade]

Now that the win is announced you were right to kill me.

I was going to gun for you otherwise Mastina. I spent all dead thread hunting your partner Akarin was correct if Nic flipped town I would be gunning for you.

Well played but imho you have a tell.

[MathBlade]

I do agree your play here was better than your original scum play which made me think 3P but you’re missing a hallmark of town you.

[Gypyx]

Gg all !

[mastina]

So if the logic was perfect, that means that logically Dunn and I were obvscum here and you were town.

Well before schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim as town...kinda sorta, yes.

After schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim tho, admittedly yes, the logic was proven flawed.

(Basically. A lot of my arguments were based on something schadd_ later, very publicly, confirmed to not be the case. Attacking the logic I presented as being from scum wouldn't have worked because as town I would've made those same arguments with no way of knowing they were wrong until the mod announced it, so if that were your angle of attack, it wouldn't have worked. Pointing out that, given Dunn's roleclaim was now modconfirmed, that my arguments were no longer valid after the fact even if they were valid at the time, and that with them no longer valid that there was less reason for Dunnstral to be scum, very well could have worked. Saying my arguments were made in bad faith wouldn't work, saying my arguments were clearly wrong from the getgo wouldn't work, saying that my arguments were now invalidated by the mod might have. The logic I used was reasonable and accurate to the facts of the game at the given time, but shown incorrect by schadd_'s announcement. Attacking me for having made stances that were at the time reasonable wouldn't have done good, but pointing out the stances were now proven wrong could have. So schadd_ confirming Dunnstral's claim gave you a very good angle you'd otherwise not have.)

[Gypyx]

Also, what was the canadian townie?

[MathBlade]

So if the logic was perfect, that means that logically Dunn and I were obvscum here and you were town.

Well before schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim as town...kinda sorta, yes.

After schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim tho, admittedly yes, the logic was proven flawed.

(Basically. A lot of my arguments were based on something schadd_ later, very publicly, confirmed to not be the case. Attacking the logic I presented as being from scum wouldn't have worked because as town I would've made those same arguments with no way of knowing they were wrong until the mod announced it, so if that were your angle of attack, it wouldn't have worked. Pointing out that, given Dunn's roleclaim was now modconfirmed, that my arguments were no longer valid after the fact even if they were valid at the time, and that with them no longer valid that there was less reason for Dunnstral to be scum, very well could have worked. Saying my arguments were made in bad faith wouldn't work, saying my arguments were clearly wrong from the getgo wouldn't work, saying that my arguments were now invalidated by the mod might have. The logic I used was reasonable and accurate to the facts of the game at the given time, but shown incorrect by schadd_'s announcement. Attacking me for having made stances that were at the time reasonable wouldn't have done good, but pointing out the stances were now proven wrong could have. So schadd_ confirming Dunnstral's claim gave you a very good angle you'd otherwise not have.)

I tend to agree here.

I would have handled it by telling Dunn the impacted party and the mafia team privately. This would still make town hunt the claim. Granted it would be harder to explain but still.

I am just hella sad out of the aliens no one saved me

[MathBlade]

Also, what was the canadian townie?

Tgp said named Townie.

[Gypyx]

Ah okay

[MathBlade]

And Skye privately*

Whoever didn’t get the notification and shoulda got it.

[mastina]

Well played but imho you have a tell.

Oh absolutely. Like I said, I didn't make a readslist once this game, and that is a very solid scumtell of mine.

There's also the flowchart test. I will always display some town traits of mine as scum and I will always display some scum traits of mine as town, but there's a degree to them. This particular scumgame had a much larger than usual number of town traits in it, and the scum traits of mine that showed were traits that I can and do show as town, but showing all the scum traits I did was a scum sign.

I can say that I genuinely feel like I did radiate the aura of my town self in spite of being scum; I can say that the arguments I presented and the attitude I displayed were both things I would do as town. But I'm well aware that it wasn't an absolutely picture-perfect recreation, that in spite of the town aura I was emitting there were signs of scum showing through the aura.

[MathBlade]

Oh that’s not what I was aiming for.

You’re more positive as Town. You build people up. As scum there’s a hint of any idea destroy it but you didn’t force your own or try to rebuild flow once it was dead. You sorta went with it.

[MathBlade]

We know from the setup that daytalk is enabled everywhere, and scum always share a PT anyway. So why can't Dunn and I just be lying about the neighborhood, and actually just be buddies?

Dude you literally paraphrased your PT--are you telling me you think that paraphrase is in any way even remotely realistically fakeable?

I don't mean, "yes, in theory, it is theoretically possible to fake a neighborhood pt conversation like this".

I mean in practice, do you think YOU, with your overall knowledge about you and Dunnstral, without an actual neighborhood PT, are capable of having faked this, thought it was a good idea, and gone through with it? To have pulled an elaborate ruse?

Because if a player said "Dunnstral and NicCage are clearly faking a PT conversation and are actually scumbuddies".

I'd be tempted to lynch that player on the spot for pushing an obvious paranoia theory that blatantly violates occam's razor. Because the simplest, and most likely, explanation, is that the neighborhood is real. schadd_ likes to have neighborhoods in his games, and he would never make a scum-scum neighborhood, therefore the claim of one is very very very likely to be true, especially with the play to back it up.

I originally thought that the Nic-Dunnstral interactions reeked of scum-scum since your inthread treatment of each other reeked of being forced and faked--but you being in a neighborhood with Dunnstral provides the perfect explanation for that and turns it into a situation that makes total sense as being from town/"town" (if you're 3p).

Ergo.

You're not scum.

You're either town, or a 3p, but if you're a 3p you're effectively town anyway and thus, still town, and thus, still not scum, and thus, not a good elimination today or ever.

And of course, the stated motive for the partial read change is based on a revelation of the new setup, not on reads.

Well obviously?
When I have made reads based off of no/wrong information, then when I get information that gives new context to the situation, including your neighborhood claim and the possibility of a 4-5 game, then that means the reads need to be updated to account for the new information.

And by the new information, Dunnstral remains scum but you become, instead of a scumbuddy with forced interactions with him, town (I feel like I should just say 'town' even though it'd be more accurate to say "town or benevolent 3p which is basically town") whose interactions with him were due to you having a neighborhood with him.

Like.
I was fucking right.
I said I thought your interactions with Dunnstral were faked and reeked of scum-scum.
They were, kinda sorta, 'faked'--not really, but they were due to you actually having a PT with Dunnstral.
But I had no way of knowing that your topic with Dunnstral wasn't a scum topic until you claimed it, did I?

Was it Mathblade himself who testified in MBOS 10 that masons look like scum? Someone did that game, at least, and a similar principle applies here for a neighborhood. Neighborhoods that're unclaimed can look like scumbuddies, until the neighborhood is revealed and that information puts to light that they are in fact, not scumbuddies, but neighbors who did have info about one another.

It’s this post imho that really sold you’re 3P or scum.

It’s too twisty. The last paragraph is sell hard like you know I am town.

[MathBlade]

@Math

I'm not disagreeing about what you're saying about town confirming Dunn, I'm just arguing that I don't see not seeing that as evidence of Nic being scum.

I am torn about it on Nic being scum.

However, what I am not torn about it, is that if he is town, he has admitted a mistake and reset.

If he resets and still gets Dunn scum then he’ll have a better case and rebuild his credibility.

Right now, based on what is in thread his theories either are not logically sound and/or I break them by existing.

Therefore I am asking him to reset and come back and my vote is on him until he does or if it needs to be back on Mastina or G for an elimination.

Fuck me I had another good town game.

I might be better at this. Setup spec was bad though.

[mastina]

You’re more positive as Town. You build people up. As scum there’s a hint of any idea destroy it but you didn’t force your own or try to rebuild flow once it was dead. You sorta went with it.

Eh, I've had plenty of towngames where I wasn't positive. (And in those towngames I very much did not build people up. It was all tearing down.)

Generally speaking, though, I try to be positive as both alignments (I would say that if anything my scumgame is overall more pleasant generically speaking as I insult town players less often in a scumgame), but yes, I have incentive to try and build people up as town.

I feel that latter part is also somewhat accurate, too--as scum, I usually do destroy ideas without the rebuilding, but in this game specifically I'd say that trait, while not utterly absent, was muted as, in your own words, just 'a hint'. I can say that I was legit trying to rebuild you, I was genuinely reaching out to you but it being 'went with it' rather than actual buildup is fair enough.

Because, after all.

You still were pushing for an elimination on town.

I had incentive to, after the efforts made, letting you push through, whereas if I were town I'd probably have been closer to Akarin in insisting that Nic was town, regardless of Dunn. (I feel like if I were genuinely town here, I'd probably gotten stubborn, double-downed on hard-defending Nic here, and fought there to the bitter end in trying to avert his elimination. Softening up and letting him die is something I could do as town, because I do hesitate, I do back down, I do get paranoid and think "maybe the people pushing this are right", but in this specific game I feel like even if that's something which I could've done as town, I wouldn't have done here.)

Basically, I stopped one spot short of how far I'd probably go as town. Going into a zone where I plausibly could do it as town, but probably would've done more, to not go with it but push harder and further. (Laziness is something I am guilty of often as both alignments, but I am very very very much far more lazy as scum because as scum laziness is furthering my wincon.)

[mastina]

The last paragraph is sell hard like you know I am town.

Uh.
MathBlade.

I made that post before I knew you were in the game.

That post was made in response to a time before you had replaced into the game.
There was zero selling of you being town there because as far as that post was concerned...you weren't in the game yet.

[mastina]

Fuck me I had another good town game. I might be better at this. Setup spec was bad though.

Just wait until you see the scum PT.

(schadd_ probably will release it in 24 hours or so. I've no need for any redactions and he has my permission to release it, but he tends to give it 24 hours even after all members say they're okay with its release.)

[mastina]

The last paragraph is sell hard like you know I am town.

Uh.
MathBlade.

I made that post before I knew you were in the game.

That post was made in response to a time before you had replaced into the game.
There was zero selling of you being town there because as far as that post was concerned...you weren't in the game yet.

(I should note tho that I was selling someone as being town there--it was actually made towards

TheGoldenParadox

, who was also in MBOS10 and thus was who I was actually appealing to there.)

[MathBlade]

The last paragraph is sell hard like you know I am town.

Uh.
MathBlade.

I made that post before I knew you were in the game.

That post was made in response to a time before you had replaced into the game.
There was zero selling of you being town there because as far as that post was concerned...you weren't in the game yet.

(I should note tho that I was selling someone as being town there--it was actually made towards

TheGoldenParadox

, who was also in MBOS10 and thus was who I was actually appealing to there.)

Oh I thought you knew I was in the game XD.

[mastina]

Oh I thought you knew I was in the game XD.

Nope, you being in the game was just a happy coincidence since it'd help verify my claims as being accurate.
But I made them not knowing you'd be able to do so.