Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[Rockhopper]

Also, one more question: How active are you going to be this game?

hopefully pretty active

[Rockhopper]

VOTE: Lavarmanos
that's the first scum

[LavarManos]

I know what to look for in this gamestate and I will intervene and talk with others when I feel necessary.

You say that RVS is fundamentally flawed, and that people will use the excuse that their votes were random. How so, then, do you know what to look for? Other than votes what are you going to read people off of. I don't like this attitude, but I'm inclined to think it comes from town more than mafia. I envision a newbie mafia would try to blend in instead of openly going against the crowd. However, ben here does not sound like a newbie too much.

I need to conserve my energy for bigger issues

What the...

I start to lose focus on my reads and who I'm scumreading if I try and be extremely townie.

What do you think makes an obvious townie? What would you do if you were trying to be extremely townie? I am very confused as to how that would make you lose focus.

Hm. That explains a bit of the weird sentence, but I'm not ready to accept this revelation yet.

Do you think mafia would intentionally lie about not being a native speaker? This seems quite silly to me.

It seems to me that Trendall overreacted to clidd's original vote. I don't think clidd's vote was serious at all, and I'm wondering why Trendall seemed to think it was serious.

Don't really get this talk about 'first' vs 'last'. Trendall's intent seemed pretty clear to me.

I also want to give the newbies some time to shine brighter than me, I feel like I'm naturally overshadowing all of them combined.

We get it.

There is no 'omgus', I didn't vote for you because you voted me, I voted for you for the reasons that I stated.

Your reasons hinge on clidd's vote being a serious one. If it was, I would be more inclined to agree with you, but it wasn't.

I don't fos you anymore.

VOTE: BM

Time to sort the last SE.

Are you scumreading Battle Mage, or just trying to pressure him? I don't find pressure votes particularly effective, especially with a more experienced player like Battle Mage.

Also, I don't see why a scum SE is any less motivated to push a town SE than a town newbie. It all depends on how the game develops.

Another thing I've noticed about him is that he likes to use the words townie and conservative.

What is scummy about this? For the most part, I think your argument against ben could also be an argument that he is an awkward townie. I'm leaning towards him being an awkward townie, and I think he is an easy target for mafia.

Scum probably like the current gamestate with so many inactive players, so following the inactive crowd would definitely go in their favor.

That's not how it works. Please do not make assumptions based on speculation like this. There's nothing right now that suggests that scum are within the active or within the more inactive players. Regardless, it is generally in scum's advantage to post more.

I have never considered or seen any scum SE try to eliminate another SE D1.

What are you even basing this off of?

I'm sure anyone can be obvious town if they just tried.

No.

How active are you going to be this game?

Depends on schedule

VOTE: Lavarmanos
that's the first scum

Incorrect, and it would be helpful if you gave reasoning.

Thoughts on players
Trendall-He seems to be making various observations that seem unlikely to come from scum.
clidd-I don't see any reason to scumread him, and he seems like he is trying to work together with the town.
ben-Seems like bait, but I also don't like the way he sheeps on popular opinion(voting chumbo after trendall and calling clidd scum after others start to do so)
Chumbo-Seems more interested in calling other players out than solving on his own
NAJON-No opinion.
Battle Mage-No opinion
Rockhopper-No opinion
Lone Markhor-No opinion

[LavarManos]

Ben calling all of clidd's posts null or scummy is not a good look for his read on clidd.

[ben dover123]

:thonk: I'm not a newbie. I have some experience at the very least.

There are some contribution here and there, as well as some towny posts, but I wanted to point out the posts that were null and scummy because of his meta. And I'm not straight up calling them null or scummy, there is reasoning in clidd's meta spoiler tag.

[Chumbo]

Just wanted to post a quick question about the term "obvious town". What exactly does it mean? Because it doesn't seem like anything can be that obvious and it seems like it would be a hard thing to turn on. Why couldn't scum be obvtown if it's something you can turn on?

[ben dover123]

Just wanted to post a quick question about the term "obvious town". What exactly does it mean? Because it doesn't seem like anything can be that obvious and it seems like it would be a hard thing to turn on. Why couldn't scum be obvtown if it's something you can turn on?

Obvious town is basically being really townie, proactive, and contribute a lot. Scum can't be obvious town because it is nearly impossible for them to get the right townie behavior due to the burden of TMI. At some point, people will ask scum for reads, and either they give them reads that are wrong or give them reads that will expose their partner, because if you try to solve for town as scum and you are too accurate, you will end up with the result that your partner is scum. I consider it easy to turn on at any time, maybe some people can't do it like me, but clidd can do deep analysis and wallpost, as he said in Open 791.

[Chumbo]

What is scummy about this? For the most part, I think your argument against ben could also be an argument that he is an awkward townie. I'm leaning towards him being an awkward townie, and I think he is an easy target for mafia.

My thought process here was that him using those words often was him trying to associate him with town, which scum would try to do. It's probably not exactly a good argument of mine, but early on that's what I was thinking.

Unfortunately I don't have much to say at the moment, other than I don't think Ben is actually scum anymore. I also have a decent townread on Pragdoid/LavarManos slot.
I had a townread for the most part on clidd, but with the contradiction and the point I brought up earlier about hesitating to provide meta, then changing his mind and posting it anyway is making me rethink it.
Trendall I'm not sure about, I'd like to know what he has to say about clidd or Ben, because they have definitely posted enough to have some type of read on them but Trendall doesn't seem to want to give that information up.

UNVOTE:

[ben dover123]

I know what to look for in this gamestate and I will intervene and talk with others when I feel necessary.

You say that RVS is fundamentally flawed, and that people will use the excuse that their votes were random. How so, then, do you know what to look for? Other than votes what are you going to read people off of. I don't like this attitude, but I'm inclined to think it comes from town more than mafia. I envision a newbie mafia would try to blend in instead of openly going against the crowd. However, ben here does not sound like a newbie too much.

I'm not a newbie, and I already explained what I look for

I need to conserve my energy for bigger issues

What the...

What?

I start to lose focus on my reads and who I'm scumreading if I try and be extremely townie.

What do you think makes an obvious townie? What would you do if you were trying to be extremely townie? I am very confused as to how that would make you lose focus.

Lots of contribution, very active, very proactive about pushing town. I would do all of the latter if I was trying to be extremely townie. I could do the latter but I would get killed night 1 and I also would lose so much energy and start overlooking stuff.

Hm. That explains a bit of the weird sentence, but I'm not ready to accept this revelation yet.

Do you think mafia would intentionally lie about not being a native speaker? This seems quite silly to me.

:thonk: It's not that he would lie about being a native speaker, because he has said such before. It is that I believe he is fully capable of making good sentences

I also want to give the newbies some time to shine brighter than me, I feel like I'm naturally overshadowing all of them combined.

We get it.

Sigh...you should try it yourself. It's harder than you think.

Scum probably like the current gamestate with so many inactive players, so following the inactive crowd would definitely go in their favor.

That's not how it works. Please do not make assumptions based on speculation like this. There's nothing right now that suggests that scum are within the active or within the more inactive players. Regardless, it is generally in scum's advantage to post more.

:thonk: So you replace in and just say "You aren't allowed to make takes"? Stop it, get some help. It was literally a light take that I assume newbie scum would fall into. And what advantages does scum have to post more?

I have never considered or seen any scum SE try to eliminate another SE D1.

What are you even basing this off of?

Past experience

I'm sure anyone can be obvious town if they just tried.

No.

How active are you going to be this game?

Depends on schedule

Thoughts on players
Trendall-He seems to be making various observations that seem unlikely to come from scum.
clidd-I don't see any reason to scumread him, and he seems like he is trying to work together with the town.
ben-Seems like bait, but I also don't like the way he sheeps on popular opinion(voting chumbo after trendall and calling clidd scum after others start to do so)

:thonk:

Chumbo-Seems more interested in calling other players out than solving on his own
NAJON-No opinion.
Battle Mage-No opinion
Rockhopper-No opinion
Lone Markhor-No opinion

Comments in bold.

Yeah, this is a nice start for LavarManos, and I had a soft townread on Pragdoid before anyways.

[LavarManos]

What does thonk stand for?
I did not say you aren't allowed to make takes. I said that you shouldn't make takes based off of no evidence. There's no incentive for scum to remain inactive when they can attempt to control the game by staying active. Also, I don't believe the game to be inactive at all. A few players have already commented that they weren't expecting the game to go this fast, so it just seems like your perception is different from others which leads to you thinking that people are "inactive" and thus scummy.
I also feel like being extremely townie does not constitute losing focus on your reads. For example, if you are constantly making reads based off of other people's posts, it makes you look townie and also helps keep you focused on the game. Post 231 is way too idealistic.
@Chumbo There was no contradiction. If you went back and read, clidd explained that it was mostly a joke.

[ben dover123]

What does thonk stand for?
I did not say you aren't allowed to make takes. I said that you shouldn't make takes based off of no evidence. There's no incentive for scum to remain inactive when they can attempt to control the game by staying active. Also, I don't believe the game to be inactive at all. A few players have already commented that they weren't expecting the game to go this fast, so it just seems like your perception is different from others which leads to you thinking that people are "inactive" and thus scummy.
I also feel like being extremely townie does not constitute losing focus on your reads. For example, if you are constantly making reads based off of other people's posts, it makes you look townie and also helps keep you focused on the game. Post 231 is way too idealistic.
@Chumbo There was no contradiction. If you went back and read, clidd explained that it was mostly a joke.

After I answer these questions, I'm out for the day. I've been trying too hard at this smh.

It's like bruh.

It sounded awfully like you just straight up rejected my take, e.g. "Please do not make assumptions based on speculation like this." So you assume that scum's best play is to powerwolf? Well, here the thing. Newbie scum are scared about going out of their way to take the game over, and majority of the time newbie scum just stay inactive. Powerwolfing is hard even for the most experienced players.
A "few" people isn't all the afk slots. There are people like mars and BM who didn't say anything like the such. Anyways, this game is inactive. Take a look at the activity count, literally the only people who are posting is me/trendall/clidd

wdym too idealistic. That is literally the definition of obvious townie. Spamming reads is not obvious town, sure it looks townie but in the end people who are proactive are much better off than people who just post reads and detailed explanations etc.

[clidd]

You did well Ben, your analysis of my meta was fantastic.

I believe you knew what to look for and paid attention to the standards that I demonstrated between games, turning it into an AI object to evaluate me in the current game. Perhaps, however, you should have waited a little longer before releasing it, so you could have collected player's reads in general about my slot (and their reasons) and, in a Scum!Clidd scenario, create slots associations in search for my partner.

[clidd]

The only problem is that I'm town, but I am really impressed anyways. I feel that you have talent, you just need to adjust a few things to turn that potential into more accuracy.

Your slot took off to the 'lock-town' position.

[ben dover123]

You did well Ben, your analysis of my meta was fantastic.

I believe you knew what to look for and paid attention to the standards that I demonstrated between games, turning it into an AI object to evaluate me in the current game. Perhaps, however, you should have waited a little longer before releasing it, so you could have collected player's reads in general about my slot (and their reasons) and, in a Scum!Clidd scenario, create slots associations in search for my partner.

No, this was exactly the right time. I feel like I'm already over the board with my proactiveness, and I'm likely going to be night 1 killed anyhow. I wanted to release it around the time BM released his info too, but Trendall rushed me towards it, and so BM may be able to use the excuse "Oh, you pointed out everything that I was going to point out". But never mind that, I'm keeping my eagle eye on BM for this.

I suppose you are right I could have waited to set some more interactions in stone, but whatever.

The only problem is that I'm town, but I am really impressed anyways. I feel that you have talent, you just need to adjust a few things to turn that potential into more accuracy.

Your slot took off to the 'lock-town' position.

Seriously, this is your only defense? I'm very disappointed. Also, don't pocket me. It's a little too late for that, I'm afraid.

[ben dover123]

Currently, here are some interactions I can foresee.

BM having partner equity to clidd if he doesn't post his take, because it pings a scummy "Oh, you posted all the evidence I have, so I don't need to post my evidence" and possibly BM sliding in with me on this wagon to buss clidd.

Trendall having partner equity to clidd depending on his reaction to my evidence and the fact that he wanted the evidence shown early. Possibly he was wanting to see what I got to defend clidd. Trendall/clidd also makes for a good scum theater as well.

[clidd]

I didn't look at the content of LavarManos so closely, but his approach after entering the game is primarily towny, although he is not so strong to enter the TR margin, more likely TL. He's more experienced than he looks.

Rockhopper's entrance, on the other hand, rang some bells.

VOTE: Rockhopper

[clidd]

Ben, you're super right: I am, in fact, playing according to my scumgame.

But I'm not scum in this game and, although I didn't play for a few months, I didn't go on vacation from work or life, so there was no physical and cognitive rest for me. You can consider that I have not yet left the state of *fatigued*, as I commented in one of the games you reviewed.

[clidd]

In Open 791, clidd is noticeably fatigued from his last 2 games, so he does not make himself obvious town and starts acting slightly like his scum meta. He talks a bit about his meta, and I am currently analyzing this game to see what he has to say about his scum meta. However, clidd should not be able to use the fatigued argument here since he has literally come back from a couple month's break, no way in hell is clidd fatigued here and not actively trying to be town.

And 241 was an answer to this passage of yours ^

[LavarManos]

Well, here the thing. Newbie scum are scared about going out of their way to take the game over, and majority of the time newbie scum just stay inactive. Powerwolfing is hard even for the most experienced players.

Yes, I understand, but there was nothing so far that indicated such which is why I disagreed with what you said. You can call out inactive people, but that is like taking a shot in the dark(especially since it was just over 100 posts).

people who are proactive are much better off than people who just post reads and detailed explanations etc.

What is the difference? You seem to think becoming an obvious town is something to be done manually. Most of the time, people just naturally become obvious town due to their motivations becoming extremely apparent. It seems like this has already happened

clidd, why didn't you respond to ben in depth? You have only praised him while not offering any sort of real response.

[clidd]

What is your impression of my answer, Lavar?

[ben dover123]

Well, here the thing. Newbie scum are scared about going out of their way to take the game over, and majority of the time newbie scum just stay inactive. Powerwolfing is hard even for the most experienced players.

Yes, I understand, but there was nothing so far that indicated such which is why I disagreed with what you said. You can call out inactive people, but that is like taking a shot in the dark(especially since it was just over 100 posts).

people who are proactive are much better off than people who just post reads and detailed explanations etc.

What is the difference? You seem to think becoming an obvious town is something to be done manually. Most of the time, people just naturally become obvious town due to their motivations becoming extremely apparent. It seems like this has already happened

clidd, why didn't you respond to ben in depth? You have only praised him while not offering any sort of real response.

1. I said it was a

light take

, and clidd asked me what I thought of inactive players and I gave him a response of where scum lies in the early phases of the game.

2. It can come naturally, but it can happen manually. If you disagree with this, so be it, I'm done arguing over this. I have basically become obvious town, but that was purposeful, because people ended up bombarding me with questions and I decided "Ah, forget it, I'm just going to play obvious townie, which is my natural playstyle".

3. Yeah, I think this is some kind of pocketing attempt to steer me away. I'm not moving an inch, clidd. Go towncase yourself for real if you want me to even budge.

I'm going to interaction read around clidd and see if I catch anything rather sus. Will be back soon.

[clidd]

I mean, the main point of your analysis is the meta, which was the reason for my praise.

Regarding your comments about my ISO, they fit the definition of "suppressing facts to fit theories" instead of "suppressing theories to fit facts". I think you are unconsciously conditioned to see reasons that agree with your adopted conclusion, which in this case is ''clidd is scum''.

I can approach if you want your pov about my posts in the current game, but I don't think it will change anything in your perspective.

[LavarManos]

What is your impression of my answer, Lavar?

You seemed to be dodging his case, but I didn't find that scummy because the case was too unfavorable. A response regarding that would have been appropriate, and you addressed that in your most recent post.

[clidd]

What is your impression of my answer, Lavar?

You seemed to be dodging his case, but I didn't find that scummy because the case was too unfavorable. A response regarding that would have been appropriate, and you addressed that in your most recent post.

Yes, I've been thinking about how I would respond. Particularly, I don't like to deal with confbias, especially due to the fact that I've suffered enough of it in some games (and no one was able to convince me to change my mind).

[Trendall]

It seems to me that Trendall overreacted to clidd's original vote. I don't think clidd's vote was serious at all, and I'm wondering why Trendall seemed to think it was serious.

Maybe you overreacted to my post and actually I wasn't too serious about it and was just doing general day one stuff.